AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by John_234 on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 23:44

Well, helicopters aren't illegal. Just expensive - a utility chopper easily breaks the million mark. Plus, not only is the chopper expensive, but the specialist training for pilots and anybody who works out of a chopper. Since the SWA is mostly counter-terrorist, I wouldn't really see a need for stuff past heavy cargo turboprops and utility choppers, which are simple enough to get.

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by John_234 on Thu 28 Jun 2012 - 2:16

Also, I forget who linked this thing to me, but I imagine an air-dropped package with one or two of these would be an interesting extraction:



It's really an autogyro with a drive mechanism more than a flying car, but the super-small package is intriguing. You could probably modify it to handle unpaved roads a little better and ride your way to an open spot for takeoff.

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by Il Direttore on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 0:17

You know, in Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six, there was this chopper that got shipped around with the Rainbow Teams. Granted, this was also an operation that spent most of its budget on training and that chopper because the commandoes were normal humans, but still.

On a separate note: It's not impossible to just rent out a hanger in a nearby airstrip. Granted, I don't know how Italy does this, but there are a multitude of municipal airstrips lying around in the US. You just pay somebody a sum every month and store your plane. I imagine a few extra hundred Euros would get the hanger operators to ignore that fact that Section 2 is using said hanger. You could wheel your plane in and shut the door while the personnel, who you'd have replaced with your own people or have been liberally bribed, took care of maintenance and fuel. You'd just need to hire a pilot and several tandem harnesses for HALO jumps or something.

And on the crazy side: Do you think a cyborg could survive re-entry in a MIRV warhead? Remove the nuke bits, stuff Henrietta and Rico into two of the "bomblets", program and fire. This seems like a good idea, seeing as you would be able to take complete advantage of enemy shock at a nuke appearing in their living room (assuming android survival).

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 0:30

A physics package is much smaller than a cyborg. Smile

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by Il Direttore on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 0:44

Really? Damn. What if it's just a normal ICBM? Could you take out the explosive bits and shove one of the smaller ones in?

Image appears to indicate possibility.



See, if we replace the payloads section, we could probably Henrietta in there. She's pretty short and scrawny and the missile is 2.11 meters in diameter.

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by Professor Voodoo on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 0:54

El_Conservatore wrote:
See, if we replace the payloads section, we could probably Henrietta in there. She's pretty short and scrawny and the missile is 2.11 meters in diameter.
Henrietta: But that will wrinkle the new outfit Giuse bought me! Do I have to?!

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by Three Dog on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 1:01

Professor Voodoo wrote:
El_Conservatore wrote:
See, if we replace the payloads section, we could probably Henrietta in there. She's pretty short and scrawny and the missile is 2.11 meters in diameter.
Henrietta: But that will wrinkle the new outfit Giuse bought me! Do I have to?!

Mercedes: If I could swap with you, I would. But, you know, being a second generation cyboreg and all... *shoves Henrietta in and closes the hatch* quick, do it now before she gets out!

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by Il Direttore on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 1:08

Conservatore: No no, it'll be fine. See, we thought of that and instead we rigged up this special rack here. It's heat resistant and stuff so your clothes can survive re-entry. We strap you in upside down and your outfit pops out on rails. You just have to raise your arms after you land, the mechanism will give you your outfit and your P90. Overall, it shouldn't be too bad.

And besides, you're being shot into a Padania Safehouse from a BALLISTIC MISSILE. THIS IS THE GREATEST THING EVER.

Although if you really don't want, I suppose I could get Marisa....

---

What do you think, Voodoo? Could Marisa fit in there?

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by Three Dog on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 1:14

El_Conservatore wrote:

And besides, you're being shot into a Padania Safehouse from a BALLISTIC MISSILE. THIS IS THE GREATEST THING EVER.

Mercedes: I want to do that!

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by Professor Voodoo on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 1:16

I officially declare this thread de-railed.
El_Conservatore wrote:
Although if you really don't want, I suppose I could get Marisa....
---
What do you think, Voodoo? Could Marisa fit in there?
Marisa: Sure, I could ride a missile straight into a Padania safe-house...that is if Henrietta is too much of a wimp.

Henrietta: I am not a wimp! You take that back!

Mercedes: Pssst...Mari, you remember she could totally kick your butt, right?

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by Three Dog on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 1:35

Professor Voodoo wrote:I officially declare this thread de-railed.
El_Conservatore wrote:
Although if you really don't want, I suppose I could get Marisa....
---
What do you think, Voodoo? Could Marisa fit in there?
Marisa: Sure, I could ride a missile straight into a Padania safe-house...that is if Henrietta is too much of a wimp.

Henrietta: I am not a wimp! You take that back!

Mercedes: Pssst...Mari, you remember she could totally kick your butt, right?

Victoria: *rubbing her chin thoughtfully* You know, if you could remodel that to fit me, my SCAR, and a Carl-Gustave with eight or none shells, I'd do it.

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by Il Direttore on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 2:19

Conservatore: Well, we do have this MIRV lying around....

*creates a Three Man Squad Insertion Capsule out of the MIRV*

'kay, so, we could do this instead. See, it's a little bit cramped (as usual) and unfortunately I don't think Henrietta is going to be very fashionable when she drops, but it should work.

*reference previous image of Trident missile*

Okay, so the MIRV capsule is by default larger than a single-warhead design. It's about 11 centimeters wider. What we do is get you all prepped and strapped in upside down as per usual. You'll be grouped around a center pylon that serves to hold a drogue chute and bunker-busting rod with your weapons strapped in by your sides. Side arms are to your left, primary weapons to your right. 45 seconds from landing the chute will deploy, reducing velocity to approximately sixty kilometers per hour. You will then smash through all barriers to land in the enemies midst. Directed explosives will then launch the sides of the capsule (it is six sided) outwards at several hundred feet per second and provide a smoke-sceen, wherein you three will prime your weapons and deploy.

I really recommend that you wear these TEFLON combat suits as well. I'm pretty sure you won't be damaged, but there is a distinct possibility that Capsule Launch could tear away large quantities of fabric.

---

In all seriousness, however, did anyone ever consider just hiring a shed and an airfield?

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by Three Dog on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 2:29

El_Conservatore wrote:Conservatore: Well, we do have this MIRV lying around....

*creates a Three Man Squad Insertion Capsule out of the MIRV*

'kay, so, we could do this instead. See, it's a little bit cramped (as usual) and unfortunately I don't think Henrietta is going to be very fashionable when she drops, but it should work.

*reference previous image of Trident missile*

Okay, so the MIRV capsule is by default larger than a single-warhead design. It's about 11 centimeters wider. What we do is get you all prepped and strapped in upside down as per usual. You'll be grouped around a center pylon that serves to hold a drogue chute and bunker-busting rod with your weapons strapped in by your sides. Side arms are to your left, primary weapons to your right. 45 seconds from landing the chute will deploy, reducing velocity to approximately sixty kilometers per hour. You will then smash through all barriers to land in the enemies midst. Directed explosives will then launch the sides of the capsule (it is six sided) outwards at several hundred feet per second and provide a smoke-sceen, wherein you three will prime your weapons and deploy.

I really recommend that you wear these TEFLON combat suits as well. I'm pretty sure you won't be damaged, but there is a distinct possibility that Capsule Launch could tear away large quantities of fabric.

---

Anthony: *raises hand* um, I may just be being padantic here, but has anyone else thought about the cost and the impracticality? I mean, are these padaia in a bunker on an island in the middle of the pacific sorounded by a thousand armed guards?!

El_Conservatore wrote:In all seriousness, however, did anyone ever consider just hiring a shed and an airfield?

I do not belive so.

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by Il Direttore on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 2:43

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:
Victoria: *rubbing her chin thoughtfully* You know, if you could remodel that to fit me, my SCAR, and a Carl-Gustave with eight or none shells, I'd do it.

Conservatore: Nah, you'd want to go for the Milkor MGL Mk. 14. It's smaller and has a shorter reload time and has the ability to fire up to 1000 meters away with a HEAT round. What about an HK416? I know it's not your usual load out, but I seem to remember the HK being shorter than the SCAR. Space is a premium and we want to save as much of it as possible.

And yes this is highly impractical. We have a multi-billion euro budget and there was an unused MIRV in France that one of the wandering fratelli recovered. We may as well put to use.

Besides, can you IMAGINE the morale killer? We'd have Padani surrendering the moment a Carabinieri car pulled up!

"No no, please, just take me!! I don't want to be shot by little girls falling out of the sky!!"

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by Three Dog on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 2:51

El_Conservatore wrote:
Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:
Victoria: *rubbing her chin thoughtfully* You know, if you could remodel that to fit me, my SCAR, and a Carl-Gustave with eight or none shells, I'd do it.

Conservatore: Nah, you'd want to go for the Milkor MGL Mk. 14. It's smaller and has a shorter reload time and has the ability to fire up to 1000 meters away with a HEAT round. What about an HK416? I know it's not your usual load out, but I seem to remember the HK being shorter than the SCAR. Space is a premium and we want to save as much of it as possible.

And yes this is highly impractical. We have a multi-billion euro budget and there was an unused MIRV in France that one of the wandering fratelli recovered. We may as well put to use.

Besides, can you IMAGINE the morale killer? We'd have Padani surrendering the moment a Carabinieri car pulled up!

"No no, please, just take me!! I don't want to be shot by little girls falling out of the sky!!"

Barry:

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by Alfisti on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 4:20

El_Conservatore wrote:In all seriousness, however, did anyone ever consider just hiring a shed and an airfield?
I imagine Italy's in a similar position to many European countries in that there will be plenty of airfields dotted around the place left over from WWII.

That said, storing the thing is the cheap part: aquiring, maintaining, fueling, manning and generally operating the thing are the expensive ones. I still hold the view that the SWA would far prefer to pour that money into operating a cyborg program rather than into assets it can easially borrow on short notice from someone else.

Sorry, I'm just boring like that. Razz

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by Il Direttore on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 5:14

Nah, we can just get a Cessna 206H.



Clamshell doors, cruises at 163 mph, can carry about 1000 lbs of cargo, and can climb up to 15,000 feet. Costs 500,000 USD (so like 480,000 Euro?) to purchase, and most Cessnas are really cheap to maintain.

I guess the big concern would be AvGas, but it shouldn't be THAT bad, should it?

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by John_234 on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 5:18

El_Conservatore wrote:
Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:
Victoria: *rubbing her chin thoughtfully* You know, if you could remodel that to fit me, my SCAR, and a Carl-Gustave with eight or none shells, I'd do it.

Conservatore: Nah, you'd want to go for the Milkor MGL Mk. 14. It's smaller and has a shorter reload time and has the ability to fire up to 1000 meters away with a HEAT round. What about an HK416? I know it's not your usual load out, but I seem to remember the HK being shorter than the SCAR. Space is a premium and we want to save as much of it as possible.

And yes this is highly impractical. We have a multi-billion euro budget and there was an unused MIRV in France that one of the wandering fratelli recovered. We may as well put to use.

Besides, can you IMAGINE the morale killer? We'd have Padani surrendering the moment a Carabinieri car pulled up!

"No no, please, just take me!! I don't want to be shot by little girls falling out of the sky!!"
40mm Medium-Velocity Launcher =/= 84mm Recoiless Rifle

One takes out dudes in a building and armored cars, the other can knock out T-72 main battle tanks, engage low-flying helicopters and lob timed air-burst shells. Charlie Gustache is amazing. That said, it is a little bit huge and overkill for most situations.

The HK416 is much larger than the SCAR. It uses a standard buffer tube, which cannot fold over like an FN SCAR stock. Plus, it's sold by angry Germans!

Pretty sure you're kidding about the MIRV but launch Gees would kill you anyway, and a slight miss in re-entry trajectory would fry the crew and kill them with Gees, or send them skipping off into outer space. That's spacetravel for you! Though I recall some dude was in free-fall from the outer edge of the atmosphere and landed safely on earth. He did have to wear a ton of stuff though.

EDIT: Made a few edits.

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by Alfisti on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 7:00

El_Conservatore wrote:Nah, we can just get a Cessna 206H.



Clamshell doors, cruises at 163 mph, can carry about 1000 lbs of cargo, and can climb up to 15,000 feet. Costs 500,000 USD (so like 480,000 Euro?) to purchase, and most Cessnas are really cheap to maintain.

I guess the big concern would be AvGas, but it shouldn't be THAT bad, should it?
Again though, we come back to my original argument of: why bother? If you need a plane in a hurry, then you can get something much faster from, say, the GIS (who, for that matter can send an Augusta which carries more, goes faster, climbs higher and can land in the back yard) and I'm sure by the time you've driven to the airfield they could have one there waiting for you. Not to mention the SWA can hide it's operations under their books, expenses, flight plans, etc. Otherwise, if you've had time to plan you can drive and take a little longer, use an airline (Triela & Hilshire seemed to have no difficulty there) or hire a light plane (or, if you're Jethro + Monty: beg, borrow or steal a plane). I dunno, I just think that, for the minimal instances where an aircraft may be needed and it didn't fall into one of those categories it's just not worth it, beyond an urge to be able to say "that's mine" (which is a suprisingly powerful motivator... but tends not to cut it with the bean counters).

That said, if you were planning on giving the SWA its own plane in a fiction or something, then knock yourself out: I'm certainly not going to stop you. Me not agreeing with an idea is not the same as saying "don't use it". I guess I just have a natural tendency to avoid trying to make the SWA's life any easier/give it cool stuff... they already have cool stuff, they don't need more. Razz

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by John_234 on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 7:13

Helicopters make sense in urban settings especially. Fixed wing makes more sense to those who do crazy international missions (MP5? Razz )

EDIT: I forget to mention but fixed wing is nice for surveillance without waking up the entire neighboorhood.

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by Il Direttore on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 10:55

LOL, shows what I know about guns. Make a suggestion for a much larger weapon!! Woo!!

I dunno. In the situation given, it seems like it'd be a lot more efficient to go with the Mikol. You're not exactly blasting tanks when you're MIRV dropping into a Padania Compound, are you?

Nah, you could just reprogram the launch. A MIRV or ICBM reentry is basically a more direct version of a Project Mercury landing. In fact, Project Mercury used repurposed ICBM chassis to get into space. It's perfectly feasible to land a 100% organic human from an ICBM launch, so it would just need a bit of modding to get the trajectory right for a GSG Combat Drop.

I disagree. In my experience, everything involving the government always takes five times longer than it should. It would probably be easier to have a civilian aircraft that happens to fly by and oh wait GSG units incoming! Then if someone makes a fuss, you can actually say: "Well we did have a civilian aircraft intrude into the no fly zone. You'd be amazed how often that happens. But otherwise, no, the government is not aware of any aircraft that could have dropped units for combat."

---

Although, we COULD also pretend that the USA hadn't canceled the Shuttle Program, right, and put a few kids in a capsule in the cargo bay of the shuttle. Then the shuttle can just push the capsule out at X-time and Y-altitude. Capsule re-enters, crashes into buildings, Padania is wiped out, and a few months of speculation on Shuttle safety and the subsequent cancellation of the program follow.

IN FACT, that is the REAL reason the Shuttle Program was shut down. The SWA kept borrowing it from NASA to drop fratelli into Padania Strongholds!! I need to go put that in the plot-bunny thread....

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by Alfisti on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 17:52

El_Conservatore wrote:I disagree. In my experience, everything involving the government always takes five times longer than it should. It would probably be easier to have a civilian aircraft that happens to fly by and oh wait GSG units incoming! Then if someone makes a fuss, you can actually say: "Well we did have a civilian aircraft intrude into the no fly zone. You'd be amazed how often that happens. But otherwise, no, the government is not aware of any aircraft that could have dropped units for combat."
Speed depends on if you go through offiicial channels, or if you do the inter-agency equivalent of walking across the road and asking your mate for a favour. I always got the impression that the SWA had a sort of understanding with certain elements of the GIS on that front.

Either way, if you consider the sorts of operations the (canon) SWA seems to get tasked with, I still don't think the potential frequency of use (for said canon SWA at least, again, fanon's a different animal) warrants actually owning its own aircraft. If they need a civillian plane, then hire one... do it under an alias and then the bird even has a 100% legitimate owner and the alias's trail just disappears. Either that or there's always the Kiskaloo and MP5 approach where the aircraft in question is owned privately by a staff memeber or handler and then "loaned".

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by Il Direttore on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 20:51

I dunno. GSI seems to me to be something that's much more close-fisted about their toys.

On the other hand, Section One might be able to provide vehicles.
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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by John_234 on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 23:52

They'd naturally have some sort of aircraft for surveillance as well as transporting executives, I'd think.

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by Officer_Charon on Thu 5 Jul 2012 - 0:35

If an agency already has the agreement in place to utilize another agency's assets, then the only issue is time - all the other hassles and red tape have been cleared by pre-written SOPs. No muss, no fuss. We do it all the time for inter-agency pursuits, officer-involved shootings (the GBI handles the investigation - the department shouldn't have to investigate it's own).

Once folks know what's coming, then it's just a case of making the call and getting the personnel to the assets.

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by Alfisti on Thu 5 Jul 2012 - 5:14

John_234 wrote:They'd naturally have some sort of aircraft for surveillance as well as transporting executives, I'd think.
I dunno, in the manga the SWA is generally shown as using UAVs for surveillance (which, for the record, I have no problem with). As for transporting executives, I've generally pictured the SWA as providing "muscle" in those situations, but from the instances I can remember they seem to use vehicles from someone else, or those already belonging to the executive in question.

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by John_234 on Thu 5 Jul 2012 - 5:50

The reason I'd think this the case is as the movie Inception showed us, owning the assets used by important people to travel with makes protection and/or assassination a lot easier.

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by SPARTAN 119 on Thu 5 Jul 2012 - 6:22

-ACHTUNG- wrote:Regarding the Hellfire missiles... I dont think there would be a need for that, unless the Five Reps suddenly purchase some Tanks, might be useful against boats.

Another reason aircraft would prove useful in is in situations when the bad guy gets away coz he has a private jet/Heli.

Well, Dante did get a hold of that APC and the self-propelled AA gun...

Although I agree that even in most situations, the Italian air force would be sufficient to deal with any air strikes, aerial interception etc missions.
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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by Alfisti on Thu 5 Jul 2012 - 6:28

John_234 wrote:The reason I'd think this the case is as the movie Inception showed us, owning the assets used by important people to travel with makes protection and/or assassination a lot easier.
Not going to argue with that point (I certainly see the SWA maintaining its own fleet of vehicles, for exactly that reason, among others), and I'm sure if it found itself doing enough missions which involved putting an executive on an aeroplane and flying them somewhere under its protection, the SWA would eventually fork for its own bird. However, for a one off occurence, or if it didn't happen that often, I still think the expense couldn't be justified; though I also tend to view the SWA as being a little less flush with money than many others, fighting along with everyone else for its share of funding.

I actually think that an aircraft would be perfectly resonably for your US version of the SWA as the distances it is going to be dealing with on a regular basis are significantly more vast. It's worth remembering that, at least in canon, the SWA is a primarialy domestic agency (says the bloke with the primarialy international fratello) and, at the end of the day, Italy really isn't that big.

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by John_234 on Thu 5 Jul 2012 - 18:20

Well, assuming they bought a new one. I'm pretty sure the government has a few that could do in other services, or at least get a hefty discount on what aircraft they do buy.

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 10 Oct 2012 - 14:54

Kara's training to earn her multi-engine land rating didn't always go well...


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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by Officer_Charon on Wed 10 Oct 2012 - 15:55

John: "What's the problem? If it's capable of it, by all means, let her pull the Immelmann!"

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by taerKitty on Wed 10 Oct 2012 - 20:53

Kiskaloo wrote:Kara's training to earn her multi-engine land rating didn't always go well...


Italian Air Force Alenia C-27J Spartan | Tail No. MM62250
Picture by Peter de Jong | Hosted by airliners.net

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Eh, lieutenant, what were you doing there?


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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by Professor Voodoo on Wed 10 Oct 2012 - 21:23

Kiskaloo wrote:Kara's training to earn her multi-engine land rating didn't always go well...
Allison: Arrghhh! Damn it, Kara, I just spilled my coffee on the ceiling!

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 22 Oct 2012 - 16:17

El Conservatore wrote:Nah, we can just get a Cessna 206H.



Clamshell doors, cruises at 163 mph, can carry about 1000 lbs of cargo, and can climb up to 15,000 feet. Costs 500,000 USD (so like 480,000 Euro?) to purchase, and most Cessnas are really cheap to maintain.

I guess the big concern would be AvGas, but it shouldn't be THAT bad, should it?

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

Post by Kurosaka "Ery" Erika on Wed 24 Oct 2012 - 21:20

some Pavehawk will be a valuable assets for a sniper/sharpshooter when it comes for a med-big mission involving sniper cover

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Re: AIR ASSETS FOR THE SWA

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