The girls' mindset in combat

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The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Angiegarde on Fri 1 Feb 2008 - 19:29

Has anyone ever wondered what the mindset of Henrietta and the other girls is in combat?

While in certain situations such as when its personal (ex. episodes 1 and 2 where Henrietta goes beserk), other times, it's not. What could be going through their minds during these times?

The desire to protect others? To please their handlers? Something else?

Also, why don't they say anything to their enemies and/or targets when their on missions?
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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by LoC978 on Fri 1 Feb 2008 - 20:13

...that depends heavily upon the situation, and upon which girl you're talkin' about.
For example:
Triela, before the raid in Montalcino, was motivated by her desire to protect Aurora (in the manga, anyway...). However, in her raid on Christiano's mansion (final battle with Pinocchio, cue dramatic music), she was out to prove herself worthy to Hillshire.

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Guest on Fri 1 Feb 2008 - 21:00

and once they make the decision to enter the fray (whatever their reasons might be) I doubt there is much going throught their mind (at least consciously) except eliminating their opponenets.


(p.s. - I need a real uplifting/up-beat anime to pull me out of the bottom of one of lifes many metaphorical muddy ditches. Any suggestions?)

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Guest on Fri 1 Feb 2008 - 22:37

3klicks wrote:(p.s. - I need a real uplifting/up-beat anime to pull me out of the bottom of one of lifes many metaphorical muddy ditches. Any suggestions?)
Rozen Maiden is good.

But whatever you do, don't†watch†Higurashi no Naku Koro ni,†ever.

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Wileama on Fri 1 Feb 2008 - 22:52

Have you seen Azumanga Daioh yet Klicks? It is hilarious, and pretty up beat.

Ditto to what's already been said in terms of mentality by the way.

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 1 Feb 2008 - 22:56

Rico is easy to understand; its something she has to do and not think about it. Exception is when she ends up in a fight or has to defend herself or Jean, then she takes on that 'HOW DARE YOU' mode of Kick Ass motivation.

Angie is very simillar to Rico, and probably so is Cleas. Most of the girls are like this. Petrushka is an extreme of this- literally doing what Alessandro tells her to do and does it with little reguard to anything else.

Triela on the other hand is- Racking up points at the video game!

Henrietta is the question mark in this set. For one, she will do what she can for Jose and the SWA, but for another- tends to fly off the handle at the most least oppertune moment.

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Triela on Fri 1 Feb 2008 - 23:00

3klicks wrote:(p.s. - I need a real uplifting/up-beat anime to pull me out of the bottom of one of lifes many metaphorical muddy ditches. Any suggestions?)

Ummmm Fruits Basket is a hysterical, amazing anime! ^_^

I think the girls don't rally think much, Rico just kills ithout a thought when she's told to do so. So does Angelica because they're conditioned more than Triela and Henrietta. It seems to me that Triela and Henrietta do thinks they think would please thier handelers, they don't just do something because they were told to.

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 1 Feb 2008 - 23:21

The main thing that undoubtedly crosses Henrietta's mind when conducting missions would be that doing her thing right would please her beloved Giuseppe. I think Angie would be of pretty much the same mindset, with one addition - in her innocence and youth, she may think of her job as being a noble one in which she 'eliminates bad guys'.

Elsa's thoughts would have been of the obsessive type, dominated by the need to prove herself to Lauro by performing the best she could. I imagine she possessed a near-unhealthy Sasuke-like desire, continually pushing herself to be the finest of the bunch. Uppermost in Rico's psyche would be the desire to concretely repay the Agency for their 'kindness' to her.

I feel that Claes and Triela approach their work from the most professional standpoint - thinking of it as merely being a job that has to be done. While I can envision them pondering the morality of it all from time to time - Claes perhaps more so than Triela - I also think they wouldn't do it too often. As for Bea... goodness knows what Bea thinks.

But I don't subscribe to the view that the milk of humanity and kindness is completely lost in the SWA cyborgs' case. When I write fanfiction starring them, they retain an innate desire to protect, serve and shield the innocent from harm, and I believe this isn't too far off the mark - witness Triela being so concerned for Aurora's safety in Volume Three.

Regarding the girls' thoughts on the enemy per se, I think Pacific War veteran Dick Thom's take on things applies quite well here:

Dick Thom wrote:We thought of the Japs as just monkeys. You could sit on a dead Jap and eat your lunch.

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 1 Feb 2008 - 23:33

@Nachtsider wrote:I feel that Claes and Triela approach their work from the most professional standpoint - thinking of it as merely being a job that has to be done. While I can envision them pondering the morality of it all from time to time - Claes perhaps more so than Triela - I also think they wouldn't do it too often. As for Bea... goodness knows what Bea thinks.
That maybe true of the current state Claes is in, but what about when she was being trained and went on missions with Reballo? She seemed to be very devoted to him, almost to an Elsa extreme. But Reballo had enough sense to knock sense back into her and accept reality for what it is.

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by LoC978 on Sat 2 Feb 2008 - 1:46

@Wileama wrote:
3klicks wrote:(p.s. - I need a real uplifting/up-beat anime to pull me out of the bottom of one of lifes many metaphorical muddy ditches. Any suggestions?)
Have you seen Azumanga Daioh yet Klicks? It is hilarious, and pretty up beat.
-seconded, and for some much more whacked-out, mostly Sex/LaughAtThePerv-based comedy: Inukami (which I vote Awesome! for their use of :elephant: s)... and to a lesser extent, Green Green.
oh, and... here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAFrmV1-_uA -Watch, laugh, repeat. It's good therapy (for some reason, my annoyance at the song makes this video even funnier!).

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Danjo3 on Sat 2 Feb 2008 - 2:18

In vol.9, after Triela finishes her mission, she gets a wound on her leg. According to the translation wasyhuu provided, when Hillshire showed concern Triela told him something to the affect of: Donít tell me not to kill people or get hurt on missions Ė thatís my job! This leads me to believe that even though Triela is clearly devoted to Hillshire, she also has a high level of personal professionalism; in other words, she takes a lot of pride in her work. I think if a situation ever came up where Triela had to work independently of Hillshire, she would easily be able to do it (though Iím sure she wouldnít like it).

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Guest on Sat 2 Feb 2008 - 6:58

In vol.9, after Triela finishes her mission, she gets a wound on her leg. According to the translation wasyhuu provided, when Hillshire showed concern Triela told him something to the affect of: Donít tell me not to kill people or get hurt on missions Ė thatís my job! This leads me to believe that even though Triela is clearly devoted to Hillshire, she also has a high level of personal professionalism; in other words, she takes a lot of pride in her work. I think if a situation ever came up where Triela had to work independently of Hillshire, she would easily be able to do it (though Iím sure she wouldnít like it).

but is it the brainwashing talking or is it what she wants ?
the girls are brainwashed to obey their handlers
i already said that i think the girls generaly behave the way they do more due to how their handlers teach them then the drugs
and triela and hillsher have worked together for at least 6 year
they spent most of that time fighting and killing
but hillsher in that point in time goes against the brainwashing and the way they lived for all that time by actually trying to protect his girl from getting hurt (this is probably do to angie dying, even jean acts kindly to rico after that)
so if up to that point he never had any problem with her killing it make's sense that she view's fighting as a way to earn his respct
and now that he tells her not to kill and not to get hurt she thinks it becouse he doesn't trust her
after all it's not like he comes out and tells her "i love too much to see you get hurt" now does he

i dont think any of the girls enjoy's killing for killing's sake
they do it becouse they are told to and are brainwashed not to think of what it really means to take a life
etta in one chapter talk's about not killing as meny people this month as she did last month like she got a C on a test and she wants to do better for god's sake
they want to please the handlers and if that means killing then thats what they do
they dont take pride in it
they want the handlers to be proud of them

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 2 Feb 2008 - 7:14

bladeofdarkness wrote:and triela and hillsher have worked together for at least 6 year

We can't really prove this, Blade, and it doesn't seem probable.

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Guest on Sat 2 Feb 2008 - 7:20

one teddy bear per christmas
+
8 teddybears total (last christmas she got two)
I I
at least six years

plus her behaveior is just what you expect from a rebel teen
and even if it's not six years its clearly a very long time

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Danjo3 on Sat 2 Feb 2008 - 7:50

I agree that Triela wants to please Hillshire, but her past actions (letting Mario go, tipping off Fermi about Jose and Henrietta, wanting to save Aurora, ect.) clearly show that when she wants to, she able to override her conditioning and make her own decisions.

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 2 Feb 2008 - 8:15

The teddies needn't necessarily have been Christmas presents, Blade - consider how Hillshire bought Triela a teddy on an occasion other than Christmas in Volume Three.

But I think we're off-topic - maybe we'll continue this in another thread.

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Guest on Sat 2 Feb 2008 - 8:23

hillsher does the same thing
if the rules are wrong he disobys them (thats what got him fired from europole)
it could be that its her ablity to "override her conditioning" is just a side effect of hillsher's own personalty (letting Mario go is just what he did)
he raised her to be more then just a tool and she ends up very much like him in presonalty
plus he doesn't scold her for it
he even seems pleased by it at times (her wanting to save Aurora in many ways reflects his own wishes)
and she picks up on it

and about the teddy bears
fine she could be getting it more then once a year
it doesn't matter if she gets it on more then just christmas
the point is they have been together for a long time
and the way she acts is compatible with a teenager rebeling

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Guest on Sat 2 Feb 2008 - 11:42

LoC wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAFrmV1-_uA -Watch, laugh, repeat. It's good therapy (for some reason, my annoyance at the song makes this video even funnier!).
Doc: "Apply 2:20min CAV!"
Assistant: "Clear! ... No effect."
Doc: "Don't give up on my you son of a bitch! Again!"

Wow, lots of other suggestions as well, thanks guys.

@Triela's time with Hillshire. I don't think the teddy bears can be treated as an accurate way to measure it either. It really would be cold and mechanical of Hillshire to only give them to her every christmas. If that was the case he would seem to live up to Triela's accusations from vol. 1. There are many other occasions for gifts such as succesful missions, birthsdays (I mean the cyborgs do have birthsdays however you look at it, and I'm sure Jose celebrates Henriettas. [actually, I wonder]), or just to cheer her up.

@Combat mindset: Things like Triela's decision that she wants to save Aurora are things that happen before the actual combat. When they are fighting I'm sure the cyborgs (except Henrietta don't loose track of their objectives, but they also probably fall into a type of "up-state" of increased awareness in which they don't really reflect, but simply focus on the nature of whatever it is they are trying to accomplish. The thoughts of impressing their handlers (for example) are likely pushed back and their conscious minds are occupied with performing whatever it is that they already decided would impress their handler, so the stage of considering is already decided so they don't go bakc to it unless some unique situation occurs.

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Guest on Sat 2 Feb 2008 - 12:36

so the qustion is
is the topic about the girls mind set while in battle
or their mind set about battle
most likly that in combat they think only about winning and not care about other stuff
but how they think about combat is more intersting to discus

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opinion

Post by Angiegarde on Sat 2 Feb 2008 - 23:42

You guys have all brought up some good points about what the girls' mindset is in combat.

It's clear to me as well that they don't kill just for the sake of killing. They do it because they're told to do so and because they want to please their respective handlers who each of them cares about very much.

Regardless of how light (like with Triela) or heavy (like with Rico) their conditioning is, each girl does their job and kills the SWA's enemies for generally the same reasons.

Still, I tend to agree with Nachtsider in that Angelica (given her childlike mindset) might think that she's killing the "bad guys" and protecting the innocent like in a Chuck Norris-type movie. In other words, she does it partly to protect others from harm which fits in my opinion due to her angelic nature.
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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Guest on Sun 3 Feb 2008 - 0:19

I don't think Henrietta's mindset is different then that. She clearly believes that the people she's killing are bad, and the simple reason is that Jose (who is the "goodest" of teh good) doesn't like them.

For Rico it makes little difference. She knows she has to obey and that she will be allowed to keep her body as well as paying back the SWA (Jean) for it.

I wouldn't say that the people they're killing are not "bad guys"; they are. The real thing that can be confused is whether the cyborgs and the SWA are "good guys".



On a side note, most of the girls remember only one type of world; one in which killing is a normal part of life. They may understand the concepts of good and bad, but they will never have the same understanding of killing as we do in the same way that child soldiers in the real world will never have the same views on it even if they end up agreeing with us as to the general morality of it.

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 3 Feb 2008 - 1:55

3klicks wrote:They may understand the concepts of good and bad, but they will never have the same understanding of killing as we do in the same way that child soldiers in the real world will never have the same views on it even if they end up agreeing with us as to the general morality of it.
Thatís true Ė unless of course you happen to be PetraÖ

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opinion

Post by Angiegarde on Mon 4 Feb 2008 - 16:27

I too agree with the line of thought about the girls not having the same understanding about killing people that we do and how iffy doing it actually is since they've been convinced through various means that going around killing terrorists and criminals is as natural as ducks on a pond.

As for the girls and Social Welfare Agency, I'd say that they're good guys when compared to their opposition. While the SWA does do iffy things and is in a shade of gray area of morality, so has every "good guy" organization or government in history. Even the Allied powers in World War II and beyond have done iffy things.
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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Guest on Mon 4 Feb 2008 - 17:24

Ah... there it is...
[b:e5a3]Angiegarde[/b:e5a3] wrote:I too agree with the line of thought about the girls not having the same understanding about killing people that we do and how iffy doing it actually is since they've been convinced through various means that going around killing terrorists and criminals is as natural as ducks on a pond.

I always wait and see Nachtsider's intellectual and well-thought replies. I never thought about this topic really.

But you have to consider that incident on the boat with Claes and the gun.

In any case, I haven't really formed an opinion about it. The cyborg's psychology has changed drastically since the brainwashing. I'm pretty sure that the girls know it too, considering what Henrietta said in Sicily, crying to Elena, what she said to Marco in the last episode of season one, and what Claes says every time she opens her mouth.

Killing people and performing missions is no different to the girls as other kids going to school.

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Guest on Tue 5 Feb 2008 - 22:50

BrynTheSkits wrote:
3klicks wrote:(p.s. - I need a real uplifting/up-beat anime to pull me out of the bottom of one of lifes many metaphorical muddy ditches. Any suggestions?)
Rozen Maiden is good.

But whatever you do, don't watch Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, ever.

Totally off topic, but thanks, this one did it for me. Complete wacky fluffiness, but entertaining enough not to get boring.,

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Guest on Sat 16 Feb 2008 - 19:37

I wonder if any of the Canon girls experience the semi-euphoric "I am god!" powertrip during actual engagement that little flower has expressed ?

I can see that happening, since their opponents are comparatively slow, weak and clueless, and would add a new angle to
Spoiler:
just how and why Triela was so upset when Pino clobbered her.

I can also see it potentially leading to disaster or even a form of sadism on behalf of a girl, although for a first-gen that would be less likely due to memory loss from conditioning, and if it happened at all would be towards the end of the operational lifespan.

Thoughts ?

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 16 Feb 2008 - 20:07

Not sure about canon cyborgs, F, but Gunslinger Girl fanfiction's first ever author-created cyborg does seem to exhibit such tendencies.

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 16 Feb 2008 - 21:12

Fremdfirma wrote:I wonder if any of the Canon girls experience the semi-euphoric "I am god!" powertrip during actual engagement that little flower has expressed ?

I can see that happening, since their opponents are comparatively slow, weak and clueless, and would add a new angle to
Spoiler:
just how and why Triela was so upset when Pino clobbered her.

I can also see it potentially leading to disaster or even a form of sadism on behalf of a girl, although for a first-gen that would be less likely due to memory loss from conditioning, and if it happened at all would be towards the end of the operational lifespan.

Thoughts ?
Actually, Pino was combat/CIA trained, and thus was taught to move, move fast and get it done running. Adding to it, he was young- at least early twenties. Most targets Triela/Hillshire went after before this were old guys in their 40s & 50s.

No- the girls dont think that they are gods in a semi-euphoric powertrip. Only serialkillers do that. the girls do believe that what they are doing is a) a job and b) the right thing to do.

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 16 Feb 2008 - 21:18

Putting Pino's age at 'at least early twenties' is, I think, exaggerated. He's old enough to smoke, true, but not that old - I'd say eighteen going on nineteen.

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 16 Feb 2008 - 21:27

He is old enough to have that 'teenage-immortal' attitude. But also respsonsible enough to take care of 'business' and 'guests.' He may have been killing since age 12, I would guess.

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by West Nile on Sun 17 Feb 2008 - 0:58

@ElfenMagix wrote:
No- the girls dont think that they are gods in a semi-euphoric powertrip. Only serialkillers do that. the girls do believe that what they are doing is a) a job and b) the right thing to do.

Serial killers and people who are not use to holding guns. "give a man a gun, he thinks he's superman. Give him 2 and he thinks he's God." Pino definitely felt like that, the girls would if it weren't for the conditioning.

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 17 Feb 2008 - 2:58

@ElfenMagix wrote:No- the girls dont think that they are gods in a semi-euphoric powertrip. Only serialkillers do that. the girls do believe that what they are doing is a) a job and b) the right thing to do.
Agreed. I donít think the girls take any joy in killing. They get their joy from the praise they receive from their handlers and the Agency, and they know that the better they do their job, the more praise they get. Triela wasnít upset because she didnít get her killing fix, she was upset because she failed at her job and thus failed Hillshire. Yes, itís true her ego was bruised, but it had nothing to do with blood lust.

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Thanatos on Sun 17 Feb 2008 - 16:32

Agreed. I donít think the girls take any joy in killing. They get their
joy from the praise they receive from their handlers and the Agency,
and they know that the better they do their job, the more praise they
get.

They donīt need to kill to feel good, they need Handler appreciation to feel good.

Which in some way it means that they do get joy in killing, itīs usually their objective of getting what they want from their handlers, their undivided attention and praise, which is just as bad.


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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by West Nile on Mon 18 Feb 2008 - 5:43

If Triela has a case of blood lust, she should be laughing with glee in season 2 episode 1, but that's not the case. she actully does not care if she was drenched in blood or not. the thing going through her head would less likely be "Shit im covered in blood" than "o shit, what would Hillshire think if im covered in blood"

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Wileama on Mon 18 Feb 2008 - 6:05

Actually I think her first thought would be, 'great how do I get the stains out.' Followed maybe by, 'well how am I going to blend in.' Just as a matter of practicality I figure she would step out of the pool of blood. I mean honestly what child assassin wants to leave bloody boot prints everywhere?

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by West Nile on Mon 18 Feb 2008 - 6:10

Like what a said, she didn't care if she was covered with blood or not, it was whether Hillshire would mind.

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 18 Feb 2008 - 8:00

@Wileama wrote:Actually I think her first thought would be, 'great how do I get the stains out.' Followed maybe by, 'well how am I going to blend in.' Just as a matter of practicality I figure she would step out of the pool of blood. I mean honestly what child assassin wants to leave bloody boot prints everywhere?
There was a lot of blood in season 1, but they treated it a much more realistic way. How did Triela get covered in blood in the first place. A shotgun blast at close range isnít going to do that. The fucker isnít going to start bleeding until heís on the ground.

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by West Nile on Mon 18 Feb 2008 - 8:14

she wasn't using buck shots i guess. probably a slug

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 18 Feb 2008 - 8:23

@West Nile wrote:she wasn't using buck shots i guess. probably a slug
That wouldnít make any difference.

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by West Nile on Mon 18 Feb 2008 - 8:26

buck shots or slugs if it punches a whole through the guy it should lead to a lot of blood

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 18 Feb 2008 - 8:35

@West Nile wrote:buck shots or slugs if it punches a whole through the guy it should lead to a lot of blood
People donít spray blood when they get shot. Triela looks like she had a gallon of it splashed on her. That only happens in the movies.

But this is kind of like a movie so I guess itís alrightÖ

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by West Nile on Mon 18 Feb 2008 - 8:38

I guess it's sort of like "hollywood physics" then

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 18 Feb 2008 - 8:57

@West Nile wrote:I guess it's sort of like "hollywood physics" then
Now youíre getting it. In the movies they use whatís called a Squib load. Visually much more dramatic then real life.

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by West Nile on Mon 18 Feb 2008 - 9:02

the things they do for drama. so where does all the blood go when you have a hole through your abdomen?

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 18 Feb 2008 - 9:29

@West Nile wrote:the things they do for drama. so where does all the blood go when you have a hole through your abdomen?
Down the sidewalk and into the sewer.

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by LoC978 on Mon 18 Feb 2008 - 11:46

@Danjo3 wrote:People donít spray blood when they get shot.
...except out the exit wound, but that's not just blood. I guess it could be said that people spray gore when they're shot. but yeah, it travels in the same direction as the bullet.

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 18 Feb 2008 - 17:14

People do spray blood when shot, but only when the bullet hits a major artery.

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 18 Feb 2008 - 22:00


Alright Nachtsider, what ever you say.

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 18 Feb 2008 - 23:17

When I was about 7, I remember my grandmother having a heart attack (first of many- she died at 113, and she was 70-something then); anyways- my 5yr old brother and I were in the waiting area waiting for the adults to return. During this time, an emergency medical team (if you can all them that- 1969? jeesh- no training!) brought in some fat old guy who had a gun shot wound to his chest. One of the doctors pulled off the bandage cover from the chest and blood just arched over like if if came from a water fountain. By the time he was brought in to emergency surgery- the trail of blood was everywhere!

All I could think of was- OOO! Cool!
Meanwhile, my brother is screaming his little head off until mom came back.

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Re: The girls' mindset in combat

Post by Wileama on Tue 19 Feb 2008 - 1:48

bullets have what we call kinetic energy. This kinetic energy gets transfered to the body, and thus some of the blood. Liquids tend to be non-compressible. I would expect blood to exit from both an entrance, and exit wound. I would expect more out of the exit wound. I wouldn't expect to see much more then one or two table spoons of blood. Then again I haven't shot anyone lately ever. So go ahead, and assume I'm talking out of my ass.

Major arteries will spurt, and can do so with quite a bit of force. Bleeding out in a matter of minutes, if not less, shouldn't be surprising.

Triela's situation is neither. Danjo is correct to point out that it is anime physics in play.

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