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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Guest on Mon 11 Feb 2008 - 16:32

rusty-spring wrote:
LoC978 wrote:
Wileama wrote:However the M4 is smaller so it's easier to carry, and better at taking corners. If your say a vehicle operate a smaller weapon is more convenient. Also the carbine is the better choice in urban, and similar, environments.
and with no difference in accuracy, a lighter frame, nearly the same feel as the M16, and only moderately more recoil, it's pretty much completely superior to the M16... though the M4 is also a less effective melee weapon (I'll miss buttstrokin' people in the head... that rear sling mount can do some DAMAGE)

I'm not a ballistics expert, but like I said before the M4's shorter barrel would result in less velocity which is what I hear largely gives the 5.56 it's damage capability to compensate for the smaller bullet. The small rifle=small barrel problem is offset by bullpups.

Too bad the US hasn't adapted a bullpup design. That way you can have both the smaller, more maneuverable gun with a nice long barrel. I think it's because traditionalists don't like the "futuristic" looks of most bullpups.

But, I'm not a soldier so I guess I can't give opinions based on experience what today's soldier would need/want. :silent:

shorter barrel = less powder burn = less velocity = less terminal ballistic performance.
You can use different ammo to remedy this, of course. However, another issue to think about is sight radius. The reader's digest version is the longer the distance between rear and front sight, the less room for error you got when the sights are alligned. Think of it like tyring to get perfect sight allignment on a M16 iron sight, then M9 iron sight. With pistol sight, the slightest deviation translate to greater miss relative to riflle sight. Darn, that did not sound well. I used a huge rifle sight model to explain this in class....but anyway,

Did a test with M855 (green tip) and Mk262 using an m4 and full-length M16, prone unsupported. With the Mk262, the full-lenth barrel yielded about 1 to 1.5 MOA group at 100 yards, whereas the M4 gave 3 to 4 MOA. Of course, with normal MOUT engagement distance, this may not be of concern. You can hit an E-type sihouette at 100m easily with an M4, but if you require the versatility of both close, immediate, to far engagement (25m up to 300m and beyond), the A2 is the way to go. The complain that Joes have is the length of the buttstock, not the barrel length.

However, the green machine has found out that when you put optics aka. ACOG on an M4, put match ammo (MK262) and still uses the same user, suddenly accuracy of 2MOA and less is achievable. Hence, M4 + ACOG = viable M16-A2 replacement. Just my .02 YMMV

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Guest on Mon 11 Feb 2008 - 16:43

for those who's salivating over HK417 and not willing to wait 10e100000 light years before a civilian version is available, not to mention before Hitlary get into the office, POF-USA and LWRC makes the same gas-piston upper...or if you're on a budget, get the retro-fit kit http://www.primaryweapons.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=7&idproduct=24

This is not a shameless plug, I by no means am affiliated with any of these vendor

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Sintendo on Mon 11 Feb 2008 - 21:05

There's a group out there who makes AR uppers that accept P-90 mags...

Too bad it's banned in Commiefornjia.



Brought to you by Rhineland Arms.

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Guest on Mon 11 Feb 2008 - 22:19

Sintendo wrote:There's a group out there who makes AR uppers that accept P-90 mags...


just when you thought you've seen it all Guh?
I don't care how well it shoots...that's just so...so...outside-the-box

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Sintendo on Mon 11 Feb 2008 - 22:40

wasyhuu wrote:
Sintendo wrote:There's a group out there who makes AR uppers that accept P-90 mags...


just when you thought you've seen it all Guh?
I don't care how well it shoots...that's just so...so...outside-the-box

I've read good things, but apparently Rhineland Arms is now defunct. Too bad, because between my own AR-15 and the rest of my familiy's variants (Grandpa = 2, Grand-Uncle = 3, Dad = 1, Uncle = 4, Uncle =...9... I think... lol Navy/Marines), It'd be nice to have something as unique as the AR57, front-heavyness aside... I was actually considering ordering this, but it looks like the only way I can get my grubby hands on one is finding a used one at a gun show.

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 12 Feb 2008 - 0:36

This isn't exactly about guns per se, but... which nations have body armor as standard-issue military equipment? Also, why do people see that wounding enemy troopers is better than killing them? Granted, taking care of their wounded men is a drain on the enemy's resources, but unless the wounded men are permanently disabled (losing an arm, or a leg, for example), they can always get better and return to their job of making your life difficult, while a dead enemy soldier means one less troublemaker shooting at you.

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Sintendo on Tue 12 Feb 2008 - 0:44

Nachtsider wrote:This isn't exactly about guns per se, but... which nations have body armor as standard-issue military equipment?

Can't say for the Army, but the Marines and Navy Corps Man defenitely wear some sort of body armor.

Nachtsider wrote:Also, why do people see that wounding enemy troopers is better than killing them? Granted, taking care of their wounded men is a drain on the enemy's resources, but unless the wounded men are permanently disabled (losing an arm, or a leg, for example), they can always get better and return to their job of making your life difficult, while a dead enemy soldier means one less troublemaker shooting at you.

Wounded soldiers drain resources, you got that right.

But, depending on the country involved, wounded soldiers are magnets for other soldeirs. The U.S. in particular heavily emphasizes the "No man left behind" rule.

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Guest on Tue 12 Feb 2008 - 1:07

Unless it's a less conventional unit that has special "operators" responsible for taking out those who are slowing/endangering the rest...


As for the mod it is really cool, and even if the armor piercing apability is not used it is still a big mag (50 rounds are better then 30).

On the other hand I really don't see any reason to speciffically try to wound rather then kill. I don't think that would be economical (designinig weapons speciffically to maim, but not kill). It is probably more of a raeson to accept weapons that have a lower probablity of killing, but are efficient at maiming/wounding that would be rejected if armies emphesized efficinet and "trusthworthy" killing.

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by LoC978 on Tue 12 Feb 2008 - 1:11

...and yet most of our enemies don't bother with battlefield medicine. I've always been a supporter of killing rather than wounding. We really need to start issuing 7.62x51mm rifles... and .45ACP handguns. The 5.56x45mm and 9x19mm are pretty much wounding rounds... though a person generally bleeds out when they don't recieve quick medical attention after takin' one.
...and yes, we in the US Army wear Interceptor Body Armor. Almost constantly. I'm actually quite comfortable in it, now.
As for other nations that use body armor... I'd Imagine most first-world nations do. I know Germany, the UK, France, Italy, and Poland all do, but I haven't studied much else. I did meet some guys from the Singapore armed forces when I was in training, and I believe they mentioned body armor at one point... and light discipline, I was so frickin' jealous that they didn't hafta polish their boots...

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Sintendo on Tue 12 Feb 2008 - 1:18

LoC978 wrote:...and yet most of our enemies don't bother with battlefield medicine. I've always been a supporter of killing rather than wounding. We really need to start issuing 7.62x51mm rifles... and .45ACP handguns.

BRING BACK THE M1 GARAND.

...

WELL NOT THE M1 EXACTLY, BUT SOMETHING THAT USES A 30-06 OR LARGER.
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Re: gun nut thread

Post by LoC978 on Tue 12 Feb 2008 - 1:30

I say we need these:
the Knight SR-25 (in various configurations)
and the Springfield XD.45ACP (5-inch barrel)
...personally, that's what I would want to take to the battlefield (when being restricted to American weapons, anyway).

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Piero on Tue 12 Feb 2008 - 1:40

Question for LOC: As a proponent of 7.62mm NATO, do you think that there would still be a niche for 5.56mm weapons (particularly of the lightweight carbine type) if the US was to go back to 7.62mm?

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by LoC978 on Tue 12 Feb 2008 - 1:42

honestly, I think the 5.56 should only be used for high-volume fire (squad automatic weapons). If you need a lightweight automatic weapon, a .45ACP submachinegun is for you.

**edit** ...just realized that didn't answer your question.
In a US military that actually went back to the 7.62x51mm and .45ACP, I think they would try to standardize as much as possible, just as they've done with the 5.56x45mm and 9x19mm. Damn near everything we use fires one of those two rounds (notable exceptions being crew-serve weapons, sniper weapons, and the M240B machine gun). I think if they ever tried to phase out the 5.56NATO and 9mmPara, they'd do it as completely as possible.
... though I suppose that leaves the possibility for a 5.56NATO niche, much as there is currently a 7.62NATO niche. I just don't see the carbine in that niche. Leave that job to 7.62NATO carbines and .45ACP SMGs.

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 12 Feb 2008 - 2:01

[quote="Sintendo"]
LoC978 wrote:...and yet most of our enemies don't bother with battlefield medicine. I've always been a supporter of killing rather than wounding. We really need to start issuing 7.62x51mm rifles... and .45ACP handguns.

I second your opinion on killing versus wounding, LoC - like I mentioned prior, wounded men can always come back to the battlefield unless maimed permanently, while dead men don't make life hell for you anymore.

Body armor isn't in widespread use within the SAF, actually - not on the scale that it's utilized with the United States' armed services. And it's a myth that discipline is lax - pettiness among NCOs and officers is, in truth, very rife.

Seven-six-two is, indeed, coming back into vogue - any of your heard of the Sage Engineering Mark 14 Model 0?

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by LoC978 on Tue 12 Feb 2008 - 2:06

ooh, got bored and started lookin' around...
and I found my next rifle! (bottom of the page)
IWANTIWANTIWANTIWANTIWANTIWANTIWANTIWANTIWANTITNOW!!!
:hurrdance:
Nachtsider wrote:any of your heard of the Sage Engineering Mark 14 Model 0?
hmmm... nope. That's not this Sage engineering, is it?

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Sintendo on Tue 12 Feb 2008 - 2:26

LoC978 wrote:ooh, got bored and started lookin' around...
and I found my next rifle! (bottom of the page)
IWANTIWANTIWANTIWANTIWANTIWANTIWANTIWANTIWANTITNOW!!!
:hurrdance:

*Slaps LoC's hands away*

MINE! MINE, GODDAMMIT! MINE! sissy slapfighting
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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 12 Feb 2008 - 2:31

Nope, LoC - the Sage is a spanking-new, modernized variant of the good ol' M14, with:


  • 18.5-inch barrel
  • Vortex flash suppresor
  • Stock adjustable for length of pull and cheek rest height
  • Accessory rails on top, bottom and sides of forend
  • Pistol grip
  • Paddle-type bolt-release (similar to that on the M16)
  • Keng's Firearm Security bipod

I'll be looking for pics to post here. Just wait up...

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 12 Feb 2008 - 2:37

I'm back, people, with the best pics of the Sage I could find:








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Re: gun nut thread

Post by LoC978 on Tue 12 Feb 2008 - 10:36

oh, and going back a step... just realized what you meant by this:
Nachtsider wrote:And it's a myth that discipline is lax - pettiness among NCOs and officers is, in truth, very rife.
I don't doubt it. What I meant by light discipline is limiting reflective surfaces and bright colors on your person for the purposes of concealment in combat. Shiny black boots are as bad as a mirror. The SAF guys I trained with (who were NCOs, actually... sweat ) had their boots clean, but completely matte black.
'course, I don't hafta worry about shining boots anymore, either, what with my new ACU digital camo and desert boots.

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Piero on Tue 12 Feb 2008 - 12:15

Okay, before I go into what I'm planning to say here, I'm going to point out that this is based pretty much entirely on reading I've done (some of it from potentially questionable sources) and not on any actual experience.

That being said...

LOC, I'm wondering a bit why you think 7.62 is clearly a superior round to 5.56. From what I've read, 5.56 can actually be a quite lethal round at close range (though I also have to admit reading things to the contrary). A lot of 5.56 rounds will fragment, and from what I've read 7.62 rounds that do not fragment don't tend to offer a big advantage in killing capability over these rounds at close range (although I could be wrong on that, and 7.62 loads that do fragment are another matter). There were cases of people surviving being shot multiple times in World War II, weren't there?

Of course, that fragmentation effect is dependent on bullet construction and velocity. While a lot of countries have rounds similar to M855, not all of them have a tendency to fragment due to differences in construction. Also, fragmenting 5.56 loads can apparently have trouble penetrating cover (not so sure about not fragmenting 5.56 FMJ) so if that's your concern, you definitely have a point.

That being said, fragmenting 5.56 rounds can create some pretty nasty wounds at close range, and have some pretty signficant advantages over 7.62x51mm -roughly half the weight per round, considerably less recoil, and tends to produce less noise and muzzle flash in short barreled carbines of comparable length. (As I understand it, short barelled 5.56 weapons can be hard on the hearing in close confines, but 7.62 weapons of similar length can be even worse.)

Of course, at ranges at which 5.56 will not fragment, 7.62 has a clear advantage, and 5.56 also can be quite inaccurate at long ranges (as I understand it, light bullets like 5.56 get really vulnerable to wind conditions at long range). But a 5.56 carbine with a decent barrel length and proper ammunition should be able to provide fragmentation effects for a signficant range, and beyond that... well, if you compare it to a subgun rather then a battle rifle, you're probably still doing pretty well because with a subgun you probably would have trouble even hitting the target at that sort of range. (Although really short barelled 5.56 weapons, like the 10.5 inch barelled ones, tend to have a short fragmentation range unless specialised ammo is used.)

Anyway, as I'd said, this is based strictly on reading, but my research had indicated while 5.56 isn't perfect, carbines that fire that round can make pretty good individual weapons.

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Wileama on Tue 12 Feb 2008 - 12:34

I was getting ready to call you on the boots. We're kind of slackers in the Air Force. It use to be I had really well polished boots too. Then I actually started doing my job. Maintenance jockeys don't care about our boots, we abuse them to much. I know one guy right know who needs a black sharpy to make sure you can see his steel toe. Yeah, the shops kind of tight about issuing cloths. :( Only the desk jockeys seem to really worry about shiny boots still. Thought I think I'm the only guy still wearing black socks...

That AR-15 with the p-90 mag is just wonky to me. I realize the advantage of the 50 round mag, and what not. Still it just doesn't mess with me. Oh also isn't the army looking at the FN SCAR for it's new rifle? if I'm not mistaken the SCAR-H is a 7.62mm weapon.

All I know is that the bigger the round the more energy it has. Energy is useful when you trying to punch though cover, or body armor. Transferring that energy to a soft fleshy target can get be a little more difficult if you have a bigger round. Still bigger rounds general mean the target is more likely to go down the first time.

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by LoC978 on Wed 13 Feb 2008 - 1:19

@Piero:
fragmentation? any hollow point or soft point will do that... I haven't researched that side of it, but if you've seen the exit wounds a 7.62NATO makes at close range (I've seen many a warning poster featuring the result of accidental discharge from an M60), you wouldn't be so worried about the round's CQC stopping power. I don't think either has much advantage at close range. Better to use a slower (perhaps handgun) round.
Also, the range people tend to be shot with rifles and carbines tends to be out a few meters... 25 or more. Close work is what your sidearm is for (and a .45ACP hollow point in the chest will almost certainly get the job done).
...as for the weight of the weapon and the round... well, if a soldier can cart around a 23lb SAW with additional weight from 200 rounds of 5.56NATO, I think one can haul around a < 9lb SR-25 carbine with 20 rounds of 7.62NATO. Even 5' tall girls are sometimes called upon to carry a SAW.
and then there's the recoil problem. well, I admit, that would be a problem for some people. I've heard some complain about the kick of an M4 over a 16 due to the shorter recoil adapter spring. Personally, I don't notice the recoil of either of 'em, it's so light. So I guess I'd just personally like to have a 7.62 for combat. I can see why some people wouldn't want one.

@Wileama:
regarding boots...
must be nice to work under people with common sense. I find a supervisor like that every once in awhile, but in general, the people with rank aren't the people who do the work (ass-kissers get rank, and subsequently give it to other ass-kissers). They simply don't understand how your boots could possibly have gotten dirty.
regarding the SCAR...
that would be nice. I like the SCAR-H. I haven't been keeping up with that race, though... and I doubt the army is gonna ditch Colt for their rifles, the Defense contractor good ol' boys system doesn't work like that, unfortunately.

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Piero on Wed 13 Feb 2008 - 1:45

Part of my post was alluding to widely issued FMJ rounds. As I understand it, a lot of 7.62mm FMJ ammunition doesn't tend to fragment (though the Germans at least experimented with a round that did, not sure if they ever put it into wide issue). Other types of ammunition are another matter, but as I understand it Western militaries don't tend to issue such rounds due to one of the conventions.

I'm hardly trying to argue that 7.62mm NATO is a weak round at close range. What I was questioning was whether a 7.62mm carbine firing FMJ would really have a big advantage in terms of killing capability (if any at all) over a 5.56mm carbine firing a fragmenting FMJ round (or something like MK 262 Mod 0, which is a bit different) at that range. Also, that fragmentation effect in 5.56mm can apparently occur at ranges much, much longer then 25 yards. Its dependent on bullet design and impact velocity (and thus barrel length) though.

The limitations of 5.56mm as I understand it (again due to reading, so this is all at least second hand) is at long ranges (where it doesn't tend to fragment and as such its small size is more problematic) and when penetration of cover is needed.

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by LoC978 on Wed 13 Feb 2008 - 2:13

hmmm... never seen FMJ ammo issued... with the notable exception of .50BMG rounds for an M2. Every 5.56 or 7.62 I've seen issued was ball ammunition. Admittedly, the only 7.62 I've seen issued was in basic training, for an M60 that was later fired over my head as I crawled through some sand.
Regardless, I don't think that a 7.62 would have any advantage in killing at close range... but that's not what it's for. It has a big advantage at longer ranges. So, basically, what I'm saying is that we should take a cue from the special forces and adopt more than 2 standard classes of main weapon (rifle and squad automatic weapon) for the common soldier. Perhaps loadout for personal weapons should *gasp* change depending upon the mission at hand. I'm not saying I'd rather have a SR-25 than an M4 for urban combat... I'm saying I'd rather have an SR-25 for guarding a gate or a convoy (with an XD.45 sidearm, of course), and maybe a UMP45 or even one of these funky-lookin' things for urban combat.

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Piero on Wed 13 Feb 2008 - 2:21

Isn't the term 'ball' often used to refer to FMJ rounds? Or am I totally off on that one?

There has been use of 7.62mm rifles for squad sharpshooters, but I guess you're looking at more of a concept of having 7.62 rifles available as an alternative to 5.56mm for everyone in a squad?

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by LoC978 on Wed 13 Feb 2008 - 2:37

ball ammo is more along the lines of a soft point. instead of the filled-in conical bullet of an FMJ, there's a spherical bullet inside a conical jacket, leaving a hollow tip (not to be confused with a hollow-point round. those are designed specifically to fragment upon impact).
and, yeah... I'm looking for a change that'll never come. Leaving behind the philosophy of a do-everything weapon that everyone is issued, and moving back to common soldiers being proficient with a rifle, submachine gun, and sidearm... and being issued two weapons at all times (I hate not having a sidearm...)

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 13 Feb 2008 - 2:51

LoC978 wrote:(I hate not having a sidearm...)

Once again, LoC, you're not alone.

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Wileama on Wed 13 Feb 2008 - 14:07

LoC you have to understand that the Air Force is in not as hard core as the other branches. Most of us turn a wrench. Aircraft maintenance is probably the biggest section of the Air Force. It's only natural for us not to give a shit about boots. I mean a splash of hydro fluid, or a bit of fuel, and your boots are done. Whats more is everyone knows it. 99% of the people up to the unit commander have been maintenance, so they know boots don't matter.

Anyway in terms of caliber, yeah bigger does feel more comfortable. Smaller calibers do have their advantages though. Mainly it's easier to carry more ammo when it's smaller. Though end of the day I would probably want something with a little bit more kick too. It's a really good feeling to know that when you hit, the guy is going to go down, and stay down.

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Guest on Wed 13 Feb 2008 - 14:41

Well I have to write something about bullets once again.

5.56
+ Superb muzzle velocity
+ Incredible penetration capabilities, even in longer ranges
+ Due to high muzzle velocity and 3 round bursts is efficient even in longer ranges
+ Low recoil
+ No noticable ballistic trajectory

- Lower stopping power (goes through the poor fella mostly just wounding him [problem fixed with more hits])
- Handles poorly in vegetation (Vietnam proved this)
- After travelling longer distances tends to stray a bit off course, due to wind


7,62
+ Superb accuracy
+ enormous stopping power
+ doesnt stray due to wind or vegetation

- Ballistic trajectory
- Strong recoil
- Penetration capabilities average


The differences are obvious, however its up to the user to determine preferences. I go for the heavier bullet, but many people enjoy lower recoil and burst firing. Many sniper rifles use 7,62 round just for these reasons.

However the round I really prefer over all others is the 120mm heavy mortar grenade.

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Guest on Wed 13 Feb 2008 - 18:37

This reminds me of the good 'oooooooooooll 9mm vs. .45, and speed vs. accuracy debates.

In the end, round placement override caliber choices. This is a quote from an old Discovery channel show on the SEAL. Upon being asked why they use P226 or 9mm, the instructor responded by saying that if he popped two rounds in the head, the receiving party won't be able to tell whether it's 9mm or .45.

Also:
Speed is fine, accuracy is final.

and

The best handgun is the one that you have on your possession when you need it....and it works

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Guest on Wed 13 Feb 2008 - 18:40

Nachtsider wrote:I'm back, people, with the best pics of the Sage I could find:

I have to try me one of those. Being spoiled by the AR platform, the last time I shot the M1A under time at prone, sitting, and standing, I ended up with a dented cheek and side jaw abrasion. It seems you still have to do the swing/rotate manuever to insert the mag with the Sage though. I never liked that (HK417 solves that prob btw)

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by LoC978 on Thu 14 Feb 2008 - 0:05

I, uh... yeah. I bought that FPK Dragunov (which is actually a Kalishnikov... whatever)... and yeah, she's frickin' sweet (as far as I can tell. just put 'er back together after field-stripping for the first time. Firing pin and bolt carrier look brand spankin' new). Now I just need to buy ammo and drive out to the middle of nowhere!
:yaay:
pictures shall be forthcoming. Need to borrow/buy a good digital camera.

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Piero on Thu 14 Feb 2008 - 0:42

LoC978 wrote:ball ammo is more along the lines of a soft point. instead of the filled-in conical bullet of an FMJ, there's a spherical bullet inside a conical jacket, leaving a hollow tip (not to be confused with a hollow-point round. those are designed specifically to fragment upon impact).

I feel a bit off about arguing definitions with someone who works with these things when my own firearms experience was basically a couple short sessions with target rifles many years ago, but isn't the defining characteristic of a Full Metal Jacket round the fact that the jacket forms the tip of the bullet without exposing anything beneath, not that the nose of the round is filled in? As I understand it, some FMJs actually do have a hollow space in the tip behind the jacket in order to induce yaw.

When you talk about the stuff that you've never seen issued, are you talking about Armour Piercing ammunition by any chance? 5.56mm AP is supposedly really rare, and not that good an anti personnel round to boot.

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by LoC978 on Thu 14 Feb 2008 - 1:04

*reads up a bit*
interesting. Hadn't heard of FMJ rounds designed like that, but it seems you're right, Full Metal Jacket is a broader term than I had realized. Ball ammo is just FMJ that has a hollow tip. I'd always assumed that all FMJ ammo was essentially an AP round minus the penetrator. Silly me.

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Piero on Thu 14 Feb 2008 - 1:16

Actually, ball ammo isn't necessarily FMJ, but the impression I get is that that's what it generally refers to in modern armies (I ended up doing some additional research myself when I decided to make that post) due to the Hague covention's provision against expanding ammo (rounds with a jacket that exposes the tip can expand) and the fact that bullets without a jacket at all don't mix well with the high velocities produced by modern rifles.

And I don't think that all FMJs have have a hollow space behind the tip, though many do. The defining characteristic seems to be that the jacket completely covers the tip of the bullet. So I think the tip on an FMJ can either be filled in or hollow behind the jacket.

But perhaps I'm getting too nitpicky at this point?

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Guest on Thu 14 Feb 2008 - 14:18

Piero wrote:
But perhaps I'm getting too nitpicky at this point?

Hey thats nothing too new in this thread. Besides we are all gun nuts here so it doesnt matter at all. Who else can read pages after pages of gun reviews and opinions on different rounds?

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Guest on Thu 14 Feb 2008 - 19:46

Too true.

I notice you're from Finland, Tony - the Sako variant of the Ak-47 design used by Finnish troops (at least in the Kosovo deployment) seemed an excellent refinement of the design.
Several good friends of mine did a bit of inter-service weapons training to break up the tedium and said they almost cried when they had to hand it back.

For my little flower (Daisy from the fic) I think I am actually going to go retro SMG with ye olde chicago piano, the M1928 Thompson with a 100 round drum clip of .45Auto and a shortened stock.

Think we could squeeze that in a viola case, or would we have to go cello for that one ?

-F

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Nachtsider on Thu 14 Feb 2008 - 19:51

A standard viola case, I think, would only work if you used a 20-round box mag. The shortened stock is a good step in the right direction, though - perhaps a modified viola case would do the job, Fremnd, as a cello case is extremely large (Rico used one for her Rheinmetall).

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by LoC978 on Thu 14 Feb 2008 - 21:26

...might fit in the viola case with the drum clip removed and laid on its side... but that would still be rather iffy.
aaanyway, I now have a camera that can see in the dark:

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Nachtsider on Thu 14 Feb 2008 - 21:35

Willya lookit that. Now you can get a Rico lookalike strong enought to lug that baby around, get yourself a business suit and go cosplay, LoC. And post a pic or two once you're at it.

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Piero on Fri 15 Feb 2008 - 16:43

What sort of scope have you got mounted on that rifle, LOC?

Sako is supposed to make some pretty nice rifles. I've read that their TRG sniper rifles are supposed to pretty much match Accuracy International's rifles in terms of accuracy, although some people consider the magnum model too light for what its capable of shooting. (And I've also read that the trigger unit has some reliability issues in the field.)

As for Viola case weapons -I get the impression someone could actually fit a fair bit of firepower into a viola case. While I don't know for sure if it would fit, an M4 with the stock collapsed is actually about an inch shorter than the average viola case. Very Happy

I've actually come up with a nasty little arsenal for my SWA cyborg RPG character to carry in her viola case, but I've wondered a bit about the weight of it. Twenty pounds or so is a significant amount of weight to carry around in a case that can end up being carried one handed for long periods...

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 15 Feb 2008 - 17:59

You don't have to worry about weight, Piero. Cyborgs have superhuman strength.

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Piero on Fri 15 Feb 2008 - 18:30

I'm aware that the girls have above average strength, but twenty pounds or so is still a fair bit. Although then again, I guess it's not that much compared to lifting a full grown man off the ground or firing a G3A3 one handed in full auto mode...

So I guess from there it becomes more a matter of being careful to ensure that people don't notice that your viola case weighs way, way more then it should...

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by LoC978 on Fri 15 Feb 2008 - 19:08

Piero wrote:What sort of scope have you got mounted on that rifle, LOC?
It's a proprietary Romanian military scope. An LPS 4x6 TIP2.
here's a view down it taken with my nifty new camera:

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 15 Feb 2008 - 23:13

While we're on the subject of instrument cases, how do you people think Rico carries around her Dragunov? For that matter, what do you guys think was in her violin case when she met Emilio?

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Piero on Fri 15 Feb 2008 - 23:21

Maybe Rico uses a larger instrument case for the Dragunov, or has some other method to carry it? (Triela had that bag, although I wonder if it was a little short for her shotgun to fit in...)

As for the case she was carrying when she met Emilio, was it a violin case or a viola case? Viola cases are bigger, aren't they?

Rico's been shown with a variety of assault rifles: a Beretta (I think I read that it was an SCP-70/90 carbine)... a Galil MAR in the anime... a SiG (I think it might have been a SG 551) in the manga...

Loc: Does the 4x6 mean anything? With a lot of scopes there seem to be a magnification x diameter thing in designations, but 6mm would be awfully narrow wouldn't it?

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 15 Feb 2008 - 23:47

Perhaps Rico carries the Dragunov in a disassembled state within a viola case (the one she used at the Villa Gatti was definitely a violin case). Or else she uses something like the cello case she carries her Rheinmetall in.

Right on the Beretta, the Galil and the SiG. I'm a little miffed where the last item is concerned - not sure why I get so nitpicky over more than one cyborg using the same type of weapon.

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Guest on Fri 15 Feb 2008 - 23:50

The tube Triela carries around is a an art supply. It's used to carry large sheets of paper / canvases without damadging them (although it's hardly recommended for anything more important).

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 15 Feb 2008 - 23:51

I always used to think it was akin to those things you carry your golf clubs in.

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Guest on Fri 15 Feb 2008 - 23:53

Also possible, althoug it's a tad narrow (I get the picture of a larger material bag when I think of golf). Then again I don't know anything about golf.

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Piero on Sat 16 Feb 2008 - 0:04

Keep in mind with the Sig rifle that Elsa was only shown with it in the anime. And that it was an early chapter which had Rico with the Sig. So actually, Rico was established as having used the rifle before Elsa was.

BTW, it the Dragunov was disassembled, would the sight need to be rezeroed when it was reassembled? For a sharpshooter's rifle, something like that could be an important consideration.

By the way, anyone curious as to what I'm thinking of having my cyborg carry in her viola case? Very Happy

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 16 Feb 2008 - 0:07

Anime, manga... they're both the same thing, really, when it comes to Gunslinger Girl (Season Two's art style notwithstanding). I'm not sure why a lot of people talk about them as though they're talking about two different items. You're may be right about Rico using that SiG before Elsa (Elsa being the new girl and all that), though.

Fire away about your cyborg's mystery weapon, Piero. We're all ears.

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Wileama on Sat 16 Feb 2008 - 0:34

I always thought it was a SMG, or assult rifle in Rico's instrument case. Much like Angelica carried a TMP in her case, instead of her full sized Steyr Aug. Maybe it was just a pistol, and some grenades. Besides just size issues a long barrel rifle is not a good weapon for sudden close range engagments. I do not see her Dragunov in that case. She probably carries it in a special bag.

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Piero on Sat 16 Feb 2008 - 0:41

Fire away about your cyborg's mystery weapon, Piero. We're all ears.

Well, it's not a single weapon so much as a kit that allows her to rapidly respond to a variety of situations on the fly. It also isn't completely set in stone at this point, but anyway...

The centerpiece is an HK53A3, stock collapsed, loaded with a 20 round magazine of 75gr Hornandy TAP ammunition and fitted with a sight rail that's used to attach a 1.1-4x Schmidt and Bender Short Dot scope via a quick detach mount. (Arguably a bit much for such a short barelled weapon, but its a nice scope.)

That weapon is placed overtop of two cloth twin magazine pouches with shoulder straps attached. Essentially, she can take one of these and throw it over her shoulder if she has to go in somewhere (much easier then carrying the entire case with her). Between them, the pouches contain four 40 round magazines -three of 75gr Hornandy TAP and one of 62gr Federal Tactical (which has better penetration against barriers).

And since the HK53 is so short with the stock collapsed (under 23 inches), there's room in the neck of the case for additional equipment. I've been thinking two flashbangs and a sound suppressor for the Sig pistol she carries.

It's certainly not perfect (the HK53's short barrel is a fairly serious limitation) and it may well weight over twenty pounds, but it is versatile.

I also wonder a bit about whether there would be sufficient padding with all that crammed in there, but I can't exactly test that IRL. Very Happy

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Sintendo on Sat 16 Feb 2008 - 3:30

LoC978 wrote:
Piero wrote:What sort of scope have you got mounted on that rifle, LOC?
It's a proprietary Romanian military scope. An LPS 4x6 TIP2.
here's a view down it taken with my nifty new camera:

I love these kinds of reticles.

On-the-fly distance measuring FTW.
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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Piero on Sat 16 Feb 2008 - 16:17

Speaking of optics, does anyone remember the issue of the scope on Angie's AUG? Well, the anime version and manga version are a bit different, and I was noticing recently that the manga version looks a lot like a 1.5-6x42mm Schmidt and Bender. Which, while still awfully powerful for an assault rifle, actually seems like something that would make a viable optic for one that was supposed to be used for sharpshooting (especially if its one of the models which has an illuminated dot or circle in addition to crosshairs).

Also, I've had to reconsider the sighting system for my cyborg's viola case HK53, because I did some fact searching and calculations and now have serious doubts about the gun's ability to fit in a sculpted viola case with the extra high of the Short Dot and it's quick detach mount. Anyone got any ideas for that? I've been thinking perhaps one of Aim Points micro red dot scopes (which are considerably smaller then one of their full size models) or something like a Doctor Optic.

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by LoC978 on Fri 22 Feb 2008 - 18:06

dunno if you've seen this, Sintendo, but I thought it was hilarious:
AK vs. AR vs. Mosin Nagant

also, I'm shoppin' around for cheap but noncorrosive 7.62x54r... any suggestions? I keep finding stuff that might be corrosive:

I really don't wanna take that chance with an $800 rifle, but I also don't wanna buy 20 round boxes of Wolf ammo...

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 22 Feb 2008 - 18:13

Heh. That article's priceless, LoC.

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Re: gun nut thread

Post by Guest on Fri 22 Feb 2008 - 19:01

Laughing Made me laugh so hard it hurts (and I don't even know what an AR is).

Oh, and the Dragunov is great.

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