New gear fo my OCs

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New gear fo my OCs

Post by Three Dog on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 0:57

I've recently decided to remolddle my OCs since I'm redoing their story as well, and have been going through their weapons... and would like some help .
First off, Mercedes:
So it's not that I want to get rid of her M200, but I figure soemthing bulpup and semi auto rather than bolt action would be better for urban combat (and just in case someone does decide to sugest the DSR-1, here is a warning, mention it a get a kukri to the forehead, I know some of you like it, but I won't touch the thing). Then there's her back, a Desert Eagle. I want her to have something a little overkill for her backup (because it suits her mischevious, trouble maker personality and how she likes to mix things up), but I can't decide on either a S&M Model 29 (because she's a movie nut and can use it for Clint Eastwood impersonations), or the Taurus Raging Bull (probably in .454 Casull/.45Colt).
And I already swapped her Mk. 23 for a Browning Hi-Power (9mm)

Victoria:
I'm thinking of giving her a MG3, unless anyone can come up with a reason why not (preferably something to replace it). And it has to beat, "There must be one or two spares in the armoury considering Rico used on for a little while". I'd also like to switch her backup from a Beretta M92 to a PP-2000. And yes, I know it it's used for riot control, etc, etc, but I think something like it would better suit Victoria's "kill 'em all/blitzkrieg/nuke it from orbit" personality.
And I already replaced her F2000 with a SCAR-H/SCAR-L combination.

And before you decide to be horrible and brutal and make me cry, I don't know heaps about guns, okay.

Aw, fuck it. If you want to make me cry, then "Go ahead, make my day."

Oh, and nothing produced after 2009 (which is when the story is set)


Last edited by Destroyer of Worlds ;D on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 3:29; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : the date thing above ^)

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by John_234 on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 1:32

Well, you've seen my thoughts on sniper rifles and the AR-10, but you can basically use any rifles you want with the right mods.

A unique option would be an M29 revolver with a 3'' barrel, usually made of lightweight metals and intended to be used as a backpacking gun.

The MG-3 is a great MG. But there's a lot of options out there that are lighter and handier. Like Minimi, Ultimax, SS-77, etc. You can also go automatic rifle with a heavily modified AR-15, a RPK, a MG-36, etc. Many share common components and ammo with rifles. The Minimi is widely used in Europe.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by MP5 on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 2:32

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:I've recently decided to remolddle my OCs since I'm redoing their story as well, and have been going through their weapons... and would like some help .
First off, Mercedes:
So it's not that I want to get rid of her M200, but I figure soemthing bulpup and semi auto rather than bolt action would be better for urban combat (and just in case someone does decide to suggest the DSR-1, here is a warning, mention it a get a kukri to the forehead, I know some of you like it, but I won't touch the thing). Then there's her back, a Desert Eagle. I want her to have something a little overkill for her backup (because it suits her mischevious, trouble maker personality and how she likes to mix things up), but I can't decide on either a S&M Model 29 (because she's a movie nut and can use it for Clint Eastwood impersonations), or the Taurus Raging Bull (probably in .454 Casull/.45Colt).
And I already swapped her Mk. 23 for a Browning Hi-Power (9mm)

Well, John's already made his case against Bullpups. That said, there's nothing stopping you from perhaps assigning Mercedes a Kel-Tec RFB with the 20-inch Target barrel. Voodoo has Marisa using an RFB as a battle rifle/sniper platform. Or, for something that requires a bit more working on, there's the Juggernaut Tactical M14 Rogue Chassis system that turns an M14 rifle's internals into a bullpup semi-auto rifle. As for revolvers, I myself have equipped my 'cowgirl' cyborg Becky with a Ruger Super Redhawk .44 Magnum revolver while her handler has a Colt Anaconda.


Victoria:
I'm thinking of giving her a MG3, unless anyone can come up with a reason why not (preferably something to replace it). And it has to beat, "There must be one or two spares in the armoury considering Rico used on for a little while". I'd also like to switch her backup from a Beretta M92 to a PP-2000. And yes, I know it it's used for riot control, etc, etc, but I think something like it would better suit Victoria's "kill 'em all/blitzkrieg/nuke it from orbit" personality.
And I already replaced her F2000 with a SCAR-H/SCAR-L combination.

Well, an MG3 is a good choice, but eats through ammo really fast. My suggestion for something equally-intimidating/destructive is perhaps a PKP Pecheneg or its forerunner, the PKM machine gun. The PKP is a more modernized version, but both fire the large and powerful 7.62x54R round, and feeds from belts up to 250 rounds in length. As for backup guns, a PP-2000 is nice and all, but why not go for a B&T MP9? In fact, the MP9 can be used as a sidearm, complete with holster--albeit one specially made for the weapon, but with stock folded, it is compact enough.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by John_234 on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 3:13

The PKM and PKP is about the lightest machine gun ever made. It's the epitome of the light machine gun. Think of it as a European M60 that is reliable. Though to say it has the same effect as an MG3 is a bit of an exaggeration, since the MG3 has twice the rate of fire... Plus, the 250 round box has never really been used in an infantry role (sorry MP5 >.>)

The RFB is a nice rifle. The M14 is also nice, but a bullpup rather takes away from its nice handling, aesthetics and good trigger. So I'd personally go with a more conventionally laid-out stock. The Russkies also have a few bullpup SVD variants if you like that sorta thing.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Professor Voodoo on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 3:21

@John_234 wrote: a bullpup rather takes away from its nice handling, aesthetics and good trigger. So I'd personally go with a more conventionally laid-out stock. The Russkies also have a few bullpup SVD variants if you like that sorta thing.
I dare say the primary reason so many authors choose to assign their OC creations a bull-pup style rifle is their compact layout. Size is a big concern when your field operator is under 5 feet tall.

Somewhat related question: Is Henrietta's P90 considered a bull-pup? Sure it's short and has an unconventional layout, but does its top-mounted magazine put it in a totally new category?

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by John_234 on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 3:24

@Professor Voodoo wrote:
@John_234 wrote: a bullpup rather takes away from its nice handling, aesthetics and good trigger. So I'd personally go with a more conventionally laid-out stock. The Russkies also have a few bullpup SVD variants if you like that sorta thing.
I dare say the primary reason so many authors choose to assign their OC creations a bull-pup style rifle is their compact layout. Size is a big concern when your field operator is under 5 feet tall.

Somewhat related question: Is Henrietta's P90 considered a bull-pup? Sure it's short and has an unconventional layout, but does its top-mounted magazine put it in a totally new category?
Right, but you can also use an MP5 with armor piercing ammo or a compact M4 with a nice flash suppressor, etc. A lot of people go with bullpup as part of the status quo rather than considering its pro cons, is all. I like some bullpups, but I insist thought has to be put into using them.

Yeah. If you examine the magazine, you'll see the bullets feed into the very rear of the gun, behind the action and grip / trigger. My only real complaints about the P90 is actually the magazine system, which is why I like the PDR.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Three Dog on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 3:26

John, when you say MG 36, do you mean This one, or a G36E with a Beta C-mag? And if I do end up using the FN, I'll give her the Maximi (7.62), not Minimi (5.56). The larger calibre is more Victoria's speed is all. That's partly what atracted me to the MG3, the other thing is that it is currently used by the Italian army, so it wouldn't be like they're in short supply. Though now that I Googled it, the Vektor SS-77 seems like something Victoria would enjoy using, and it's South African, so there's another plus. (I like South African guns because they came up with the MAG-7 and NTW 20mm)

MP5, what year was the Juggernaut Tactical M14 Rogue Chasis avalible? The story's set back in 2009, so I can't use anything after then (I probably should have mentioned that earlier, huh? I'll ad). If it wasn't avalible, I may have to go with the Kel-Tec (My orgiginal plan was the Dragunov SVU, but Rico already got a Druganov so if anyone deserves and SVU, it's her. Jean should just get rid of the ald SVD). The PKP is a possibility, as I do like Russian weaponary, so at the moment it's between that, the Vektor, and the MG3. As far as the MP9 is concerned, it actually sounds like a pretty good idea, uses the same calibre as the PP-2000, and has more options as far as magazine size is concerned.

John (I was writing this up when your second post came in), see above about the Dragunov. And Victoria will find a way to use the 250 round box, I can garuntee it, sir, she's... resourceful... that way. And I have the same problem with the Troy system as I do with the Jeggernaut system.
Maybe Victoria can just have both a PKP and an MG3, and will use whatever will suit the situation better. MG3 for when she'll be mostly stationary. PKP for when she'll be on the move a lot.

Prof. Voodoo, P90's are bulpup, where the magazine is just changes what you call it. The magazine is called a Helical magazine.
No it's not, ignore that last part about the P90 magazine!


Last edited by Destroyer of Worlds ;D on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 3:27; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : got facts wrong!)

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by John_234 on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 3:40

The G-36 variant. It's an automatic rifle, so the lack of quick change barrel means you can't put out as much sustained fire as a LMG with a quick-change barrel like a M249. The trade off is it's lighter, mostly.

One suggestion - the Mk48. Basically a lightened 7.62 M249. Very lightweight, a lot of firepower and definitely available before 2009. The Mk43, otherwise known as the M60E4 is also a very light LMG. Regardless of what you use, I'd heavily suggest against using two machine guns as they'd overlap. A rifle and a LMG, a LMG and a sniper rifle, a LMG and an automatic rifle maybe. Also, the PKM and MG-3 specifically is a bad idea as they don't share ammo.

Besides, PKMs are very easy to find around the world.

The RFB wasn't available until late 2009. The Troy wasn't out until very recently. Your best option would probably be the M14 EBR the US used for a while... or the SVU. You can't use it left handed, but I doubt that matters. Also, anything with a folding stock works - basically any bolt action rifle can use a folding stock.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Three Dog on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 3:49

@John_234 wrote:The G-36 variant. It's an automatic rifle, so the lack of quick change barrel means you can't put out as much sustained fire as a LMG with a quick-change barrel like a M249. The trade off is it's lighter, mostly.

@John_234 wrote:One suggestion - the Mk48. Basically a lightened 7.62 M249. Very lightweight, a lot of firepower and definitely available before 2009. The Mk43, otherwise known as the M60E4 is also a very light LMG. Regardless of what you use, I'd heavily suggest against using two machine guns as they'd overlap. A rifle and a LMG, a LMG and a sniper rifle, a LMG and an automatic rifle maybe. Also, the PKM and MG-3 specifically is a bad idea as they don't share ammo.

Besides, PKMs are very easy to find around the world.
That makes sense. Though I think you took it as taking them both on mission. She'd just take whatever the mission requires is all, it's not like she trapes around Rome concealing teh buggers. Razz

@John_234 wrote:The RFB wasn't available until late 2009. The Troy wasn't out until very recently. Your best option would probably be the M14 EBR the US used for a while... or the SVU. You can't use it left handed, but I doubt that matters. Also, anything with a folding stock works - basically any bolt action rifle can use a folding stock.
S'pose if the navy Seals use it, the M14 EBR must have some redeamable features... and like I said, if anyone gets a SVU, it's Rico because she deserves it.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by John_234 on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 3:53

People have this bizarre aversion to ever using the same gun. Just because Rico could use an SVU doesn't mean you can't use it.

Plus , there are definite reasons to use the SVD! Without going into excruciating detail, the SVD is a longer rifle with more accommodations to comfort and accurate use than a cramped, hard kicking bullpup.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Three Dog on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 3:57

@John_234 wrote:People have this bizarre aversion to ever using the same gun. Just because Rico could use an SVU doesn't mean you can't use it.

Plus , there are definite reasons to use the SVD! Without going into excruciating detail, the SVD is a longer rifle with more accommodations to comfort and accurate use than a cramped, hard kicking bullpup.

It's not that she uses, so much as Jean makes her lug around a huge cello(?) case in order to conceal it, give her the shorter version so she doesn't have to lug that thing around! That's the one thing I dislike about Jean. he seems so practical, then give Rico a full length rifle instead of the varient designed specifically for urban combat.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by John_234 on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 4:09

Well, the reality of things is that a full size rifle is more accurate than a bullpup, and a guy with an SVD generally shoots better than one with an SVU. And Rico is almost never in a situation where she has to defend herself at close range, so the difficulty lugging around a full size rifle is quite realistically secondary. That said, a SVD is not a very accurate rifle, so it might just be a stylistic decision on Aida's part rather than the most realistic choice.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Three Dog on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 4:11

@John_234 wrote:Well, the reality of things is that a full size rifle is more accurate than a bullpup, and a guy with an SVD generally shoots better than one with an SVU. And Rico is almost never in a situation where she has to defend herself at close range, so the difficulty lugging around a full size rifle is quite realistically secondary. That said, a SVD is not a very accurate rifle, so it might just be a stylistic decision on Aida's part rather than the most realistic choice.
Yeah, I'd pin it on Aida's sense of asthetic over function.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by John_234 on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 4:13

It's like the trench gun. Nothing matters, because that gun is DAMNED COOL.


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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Three Dog on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 4:16

@John_234 wrote:It's like the trench gun. Nothing matters, because that gun is DAMNED COOL.

*stokes study beard (because I've been too busy studying to shave)* That's the M1987 that Triela uses, if I'm not mistaken. Very cool indeed, and it can have a bayonet, and as we all know, swords always, always beat guns in anime and manga Razz

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Alfisti on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 5:45

@Professor Voodoo wrote:
@John_234 wrote: a bullpup rather takes away from its nice handling, aesthetics and good trigger. So I'd personally go with a more conventionally laid-out stock. The Russkies also have a few bullpup SVD variants if you like that sorta thing.
I dare say the primary reason so many authors choose to assign their OC creations a bull-pup style rifle is their compact layout. Size is a big concern when your field operator is under 5 feet tall.
Personally I think half the reason a lot of authors choose a bull-pup layout is because it looks cool...

That said, I think ergonomics, size and wieldability of a weapon are probably going to be greater limiting factors for the small statured cyborgs than, say, weight... don't forget Bice was last seen tossing a casual half tonne of missile warhead out of a tower, and a couple of type 2s dropped a crawler crane on its side.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Three Dog on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 7:46

@Alfisti wrote:
@Professor Voodoo wrote:
@John_234 wrote: a bullpup rather takes away from its nice handling, aesthetics and good trigger. So I'd personally go with a more conventionally laid-out stock. The Russkies also have a few bullpup SVD variants if you like that sorta thing.
I dare say the primary reason so many authors choose to assign their OC creations a bull-pup style rifle is their compact layout. Size is a big concern when your field operator is under 5 feet tall.
Personally I think half the reason a lot of authors choose a bull-pup layout is because it looks cool...

That said, I think ergonomics, size and wieldability of a weapon are probably going to be greater limiting factors for the small statured cyborgs than, say, weight... don't forget Bice was last seen tossing a casual half tonne of missile warhead out of a tower, and a couple of type 2s dropped a crawler crane on its side.
Yeah, but Beatric was buff. Any time she wasn't on screen, she was bench pressing the other cyborgs who also weren't on screen... alll at once! And then when the 'Sandro only arc came along and no cyborgs were on screen, well, lets just say she did some impressive stuff that day. As far as the crane is concerned, there were two of them, and they'd have ll that adrenaline and what-not from the large scale (compared to what they're used to) battle. And the lifted with thier back, not their legs. Razz

Jokes aside, the weight would actually count, as the heavier the weapon, the longr it will take to bring to bear in an emergancy because of its greater iniertia from the greater mass. Also, yes, Bice lifted a missile, didn't she go very fast with it though? Remember, she was a First Gen, and therefore stronger than any Second Gen by at least a factor of two, amybe three. This that means a heavy weapon will still slow them down, in which case it would have been a better idea to simply get a First Gen for the job anyway if you need high speed firepower. And about the Second Gens lifting the crane, there's a differecne between two people lifting a heavy thing on the spot, and having a single person run across the rooftops of Rome carrying said heavy thing.

@John_234 wrote:It's like the trench gun. Nothing matters, because that gun is DAMNED COOL.
And I remebered, there is a semi valid reason for Triela using that. When Mario finds Hillshire in Amsterdam(?), he's using the M1987. And it is not uncommon for criminals to use older weapons, as more often than not, they jast want a gun and don't care from what time period or whether or not it's discontinued. Give most criminals the choice between a XM8 and a CM901, chances are they'll pick the XM8 simply over asthetics, thinking that it is the more advanced rifle, and not knowing that it has been discontinued. What was the point I was trying to make...? Anyway, some crims use older weapons because it's all they could find, and it's what Mario had, and Hillshire's a sentimental bloke.

And I've sen a Youtube vid of a 'Nam era soldier using the M1987, and firing rounds away like it was an automatic weapon. Seriously, it was fast. at least a round and a hlaf every second or something along those lines. Not the slow BAM, CHICK-CHICK that most people know and love. A trained soldier with it is leathal.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Alfisti on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 8:48

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:Yeah, but Beatric was buff. Any time she wasn't on screen, she was bench pressing the other cyborgs who also weren't on screen... alll at once! And then when the 'Sandro only arc came along and no cyborgs were on screen, well, lets just say she did some impressive stuff that day. As far as the crane is concerned, there were two of them, and they'd have ll that adrenaline and what-not from the large scale (compared to what they're used to) battle. And the lifted with thier back, not their legs. Razz

Jokes aside, the weight would actually count, as the heavier the weapon, the longr it will take to bring to bear in an emergancy because of its greater iniertia from the greater mass. Also, yes, Bice lifted a missile, didn't she go very fast with it though? Remember, she was a First Gen, and therefore stronger than any Second Gen by at least a factor of two, amybe three. This that means a heavy weapon will still slow them down, in which case it would have been a better idea to simply get a First Gen for the job anyway if you need high speed firepower. And about the Second Gens lifting the crane, there's a differecne between two people lifting a heavy thing on the spot, and having a single person run across the rooftops of Rome carrying said heavy thing.
I didn't say weight wasn't a concern, just that it was less of a concern than some other factors... ie that there are probably other issues which would need to be addressed ahead of it, say: a small cyborg not being able to reach the fore-grip of her firearm, hold a large pistol with small hands, or seat a stock comfortably into her shoulder because it's too far from the but to the trigger.

As to the crawler crane... have you seen a crawler crane in real life? I'd have to check the manga again (in Gladstone right now), but even a little one carries a couple of tonnes of weights on it.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Three Dog on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 17:58

@Alfisti wrote:I didn't say weight wasn't a concern, just that it was less of a concern than some other factors... ie that there are probably other issues which would need to be addressed ahead of it, say: a small cyborg not being able to reach the fore-grip of her firearm, hold a large pistol with small hands, or seat a stock comfortably into her shoulder because it's too far from the but to the trigger.
Oh, I get what you're saying now. Sorry . But anything suitable for a man of average height will be suitable for Victoria (because she's a tall bitch), and Mercedes is just under average for a female height.

@Alfisti wrote:As to the crawler crane... have you seen a crawler crane in real life? I'd have to check the manga again (in Gladstone right now), but even a little one carries a couple of tonnes of weights on it.
Alas, I have nigh seen a crawler crane in real life. But even with two of them, they struggled for a bit before actually flipped it. I remember it well because I thought that part was fucking awsome! They killed an armoured vehicle with a crane!

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by John_234 on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 18:52

Weight admittedly has less to do with it than how the weight is distributed. Because even strength can't defy physics.

That said, a battle rifle is generally used by a tall man. Which probably means even a tall woman would have trouble with one. Length of pull is really important when using a firearm.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by crazyidiot78 on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 19:52

what is length of pull?
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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by John_234 on Thu 14 Jun 2012 - 20:33

Basically the distance your arm has to reach to effectively operate the gun. It's the distance between where the stock touches your shoulder and the place where you grip the gun.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Three Dog on Wed 20 Jun 2012 - 7:04

Okay, I've decided on the Mk 48 for Victoria as she already uses a butt-load of FN weapons anyway.

Also, just a quick question: Would it be standard practice for the cyborgs to know how to use most SiG handguns? Just seems to me that so many cyborgs use 'em, that it must be standard practice or something.

Also, are there any smaller shotguns than the MAG-7 besides the XM-26, and what is a better assault shotgun than the AA-12?

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Alfisti on Wed 20 Jun 2012 - 7:32

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:Also, just a quick question: Would it be standard practice for the cyborgs to know how to use most SiG handguns? Just seems to me that so many cyborgs use 'em, that it must be standard practice or something.
While the Gen1 girls had to learn each weapon, the Gen2's come pre-loaded with a certain amount of firearms and tactical knowledge. So for a Sig they should at least know which end to hold and how to operate it, operating it effectively however is something I imagine which would take a fair bit of training and practice. There's a huge gap between knowing which buttons to press and how to actually make good use of something.


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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 20 Jun 2012 - 7:37

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:Also, just a quick question: Would it be standard practice for the cyborgs to know how to use most SiG handguns? Just seems to me that so many cyborgs use 'em, that it must be standard practice or something.
We've only ever seen Henrietta, Elsa and Triela use them. Maybe this just means that Hilshire, Jose and Lauro liked SiGs.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Three Dog on Wed 20 Jun 2012 - 7:51

@Alfisti wrote:While the Gen1 girls had to learn each weapon, the Gen2's come pre-loaded with a certain amount of firearms and tactical knowledge. So for a Sig they should at least know which end to hold and how to operate it, operating it effectively however is something I imagine which would take learning and practice. There's a huge gap between knowing which buttons to press and how to actually make good use of something.
@Nachtsider wrote:We've only ever seen Henrietta, Elsa and Triela use
them. Maybe this just means that Hilshire, Jose and Lauro liked
SiGs.
Both pretty good points, alright, thankie fellas. I'm pretty sure I remember someone else with a SiG though...

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by John_234 on Wed 20 Jun 2012 - 8:15

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:Okay, I've decided on the Mk 48 for Victoria as she already uses a butt-load of FN weapons anyway.

Also, just a quick question: Would it be standard practice for the cyborgs to know how to use most SiG handguns? Just seems to me that so many cyborgs use 'em, that it must be standard practice or something.

Also, are there any smaller shotguns than the MAG-7 besides the XM-26, and what is a better assault shotgun than the AA-12?
SiGs are expensive, precisely made handguns. Swiss designed, German produced. Most of the SWA fratello use Sigs, so naturally fan-writers tend to follow their example. And SiGs are pretty easy to use. They generally lack safeties and complex controls. If you know how to use a Glock, Beretta or any other handgun, a Sig should be simple.

The XM-26 is actually bigger than the MAG-7. However, it also fires standard shotgun shells, rather than the special ammo that pistol uses.

What you want a compact shotgun for keys into what you should get. If it's simply for breaching (blasting doors and such) a Serbu Super Shorty on a one point sling is probably more than sufficient. But the lacking mag cap means its only slightly better than a double barrel for fighting. A typical pump-action shotgun with a short barrel (18'' or less) and a folding stock is good for a lot of uses, but you have to spend a lot of time reloading and changing ammo.

A semi-auto is good too, but most can't accept folding stocks, so their utility is limited to full on "combat shotgun." On that topic, the Saiga 12 smokes the AA-12, IMHO. It can take some high-capacity mags, it's not overly large or hard-kicking, its reliable and can take a lot of accessories. The AA-12s automatic fire is so slow that the lack of selective fire on a Saiga is probably not an issue.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Three Dog on Wed 20 Jun 2012 - 8:47

@John_234 wrote:The XM-26 is actually bigger than the MAG-7. However, it also fires standard shotgun shells, rather than the special ammo that pistol uses.
Is that with or without the stock on the XM-26, 'cause that can be detached.

@John_234 wrote:What you want a compact shotgun for keys into what you should get.
Secondary during a raid or as something that she carries in lieu of her rifle when she'll be scrounging around in tight areas.

And you got any suggestions besides the Saiga? I already have one person that uses one, and there's the fact that it seems to be fairly popular. And yes, I know that thing's are popular for a reason. I was thinking maybe something like the Benelli M4, since it would be easier to conceal, and only requires manuel cycling for low-power rounds, which Vitoria wouldn't go near anyway. And there are a few in the Agency Armoury, too. According to its Wiki, the M4 also seems easy to service and is reliable.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by MP5 on Wed 20 Jun 2012 - 14:33

I was actually going to suggest the Serbu Super Shorty since I have a character that uses it (Ike), but I would also suggest the Kel-Tec KSG, which operates like a Neostead:


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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Three Dog on Wed 20 Jun 2012 - 18:15

Hmm, maybe not the Serbu Super Shorty, not enough bullets, but I'm considering the KSG, which I think is a bullpup, plus it holds 13 or 14 rounds, plus can be loaded with two different round types (can switch between tubes), but I'm not sure when it was produced, so that's a bit of a problem. If anyone could tel me, that'd be great.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by John_234 on Wed 20 Jun 2012 - 18:53

Like I mentioned earlier, late 2009 was when it was first available. You'd have to say your pair got an early model before official production started (though that wouldn't really make sense, because it'd point out a lot of connections if the gun were ditched in enemy territory.) A better option is probably the actual Neostead, which allows alternating feeding of the magazines among other things. The Neostead has been around since 2001, and 2003 for civilian sale. It also has a compact variant.

The Benelli M4 is a reliable, cool-looking shotgun but it's also very large. And you can't detach the stock tube even if you give it a short barrel, and I prefer it's cousin, the M3.

The MASS is a pretty small shotgun, but the giant magazine makes it a lot less concealable than the Serbu, which can actually fit into a holster. You can use a shorter mag for easier concealment, though to be honest you could give the Serbu a 12'' barrel, a 4+1 magazine capacity and whatever stock setup you wanted (or didn't) and conceal it under most jackets. I would also point out that the MASS was a prototype weapon up to 2008 or so, so it just barely makes sense for the time period.

But I should point out that if you're carrying a rifle and want a secondary weapon, concealability is probably not your primary issue.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Three Dog on Thu 21 Jun 2012 - 5:12

@John_234 wrote: The Neostead has been around since 2001, and 2003 for civilian sale. It also has a compact variant.

The MASS is a pretty small shotgun, but the giant magazine makes it a lot less concealable than the Serbu, which can actually fit into a holster. You can use a shorter mag for easier concealment, though to be honest you could give the Serbu a 12'' barrel, a 4+1 magazine capacity and whatever stock setup you wanted (or didn't) and conceal it under most jackets. I would also point out that the MASS was a prototype weapon up to 2008 or so, so it just barely makes sense for the time period.

But I should point out that if you're carrying a rifle and want a secondary weapon, concealability is probably not your primary issue.

I think I'll go with the Neostead. How is that pronounced anyway? Nee-oh st-ee-d or N-ee-oh st-e-d?

Also, I realise that Mercedes is armed with the Skorpion, with two actually 'cause she's cool that way, but I don't think it makes much sense for her have a Czech SMG while the girl with the Handler that was in the 601st SFG doesn't. Anyone got any good suggestions on what to replace it with that will still fill the same slots that it could?

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Alfisti on Thu 21 Jun 2012 - 6:26

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:Hmm, maybe not the Serbu Super Shorty, not enough bullets, but I'm considering the KSG, which I think is a bullpup, plus it holds 13 or 14 rounds, plus can be loaded with two different round types (can switch between tubes), but I'm not sure when it was produced, so that's a bit of a problem. If anyone could tel me, that'd be great.
Option B is of course to take the lazy route and just be ambiguous as to your timeframe... that's what I do Razz

No idea on a replacement for the Skorpion though... maybe one of the small Uzi variants? Or, with an arguably less powerful round (I assume H&K must have some reason to continue persuing it), an MP7?

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Three Dog on Thu 21 Jun 2012 - 8:00

@Alfisti wrote:Option B is of course to take the lazy route and just be ambiguous as to your timeframe... that's what I do Razz

No idea on a replacement for the Skorpion though... maybe one of the small Uzi variants? Or, with an arguably less powerful round (I assume H&K must have some reason to continue persuing it), an MP7?
I think it was you who suggested I be ambiguous before Mr. Alfisti . And yeah, it would be easier, but I can be stubourn like that sometimes, I wouldn't hbe doing Physics, Biology, Math Sudies and English Studies in Yr12 if I wasn't. All I need is Chemistry and I have what they call "The Suicide Five"!

Anyway, what was I saying...? Puzzled Oh yeah, about the ambiguous timeline, I just prefer to set my things out like this:
- - - - - - - - -
Thursday 21st June 2012 - Padania safe house, 35km north east of Rome - 0200 hours, Alpha time

Mercedes crouched in one of the many birch trees around the cabin. Several Padania operatives were inside, more than likely armed with little else but Kalashnikovs and Berettas. A cool wind brushed Mercedes' face as she switched off the safety of her Mk 14 and levelled it on the one window of the building. She could see two silhohetted figures with her thermal sight, both men, one with what looked like a bottle in his hand. Mercedes took a deep breath...
- - - - - - - - -
Like that. Blame the Halo books for me using that format, it's used in them and I fell in love with it.

Back to guns; I suppose I could give her an MP7, there do seem to be a couple laying around the Agency anyway.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Alfisti on Thu 21 Jun 2012 - 8:11

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:I think it was you who suggested I be ambiguous before Mr. Alfisti . And yeah, it would be easier, but I can be stubourn like that sometimes, I wouldn't hbe doing Physics, Biology, Math Sudies and English Studies in Yr12 if I wasn't. All I need is Chemistry and I have what they call "The Suicide Five"!
I did math B, math C, Physics, Chem and Engineering Studies (and of course the mandatory English) so...

...after which I was pretty certain I didn't want to do any of them ever again and signed up for design in university. Razz

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Three Dog on Thu 21 Jun 2012 - 8:36

@Alfisti wrote:
Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:I think it was you who suggested I be ambiguous before Mr. Alfisti . And yeah, it would be easier, but I can be stubourn like that sometimes, I wouldn't hbe doing Physics, Biology, Math Sudies and English Studies in Yr12 if I wasn't. All I need is Chemistry and I have what they call "The Suicide Five"!
I did math B, math C, Physics, Chem and Engineering Studies (and of course the mandatory English) so...

...after which I was pretty certain I didn't want to do any of them ever again and signed up for design in university. Razz

Yeah, I pretty much felt the same about a new subject that we have to do to get our SACE called Research Prject. I won't go into details, but I will say that I am very thankful it only goes for one semester and I passed it the first time around, one of the ten about fifty students to pass first time around.

I get the feeling I may end up the same way when I get my SACE, minus the Design, I'm thinking avcounting instead becasue I don't have to go to Adelaide for it.

Fun fact: Research Project was originally going to be optional, meaning it was possible to have all your classes as Research Prject. Therefore, you only have to come in for four lessons a week, for a semester to pass year 12. Razz

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by John_234 on Thu 21 Jun 2012 - 18:15

Again, somewhat like the P90 in my view, the MP7 is underpowered and is a better PDW than a special forces weapon, since you're supposed to saturate a target with automatic fire rather than hit them with a few accurate rounds.

... I guess it works, then! The MP7 is almost pistol sized, though primarily used with the stock. It's been historically used by the Germans and the US special forces in the middle east, so there'd be some experience working the gun at least. Most SF guys just default to the MP5 when they pick an SMG due to it's wide use in the military, though it's not really a machine pistol like the Skorp or MP7.

Also, not sure on pronunciation on Neostead. Lots of fun things about the gun, like the loading system and the forward-back action.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Three Dog on Fri 22 Jun 2012 - 2:22

@John_234 wrote:... though it's not really a machine pistol like the Skorp or MP7.
Skorpion's a submachine gun, not machine pistol.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by John_234 on Fri 22 Jun 2012 - 2:25

You realize a machine pistol is not just a pistol that is capable of automatic fire, but a term broadly applied to very small SMGs, right? That's why a Mac 11 or a TMP is sometimes considered a machine pistol. Machine pistol itself is a bit of an ambiguous term, because it was originally applied to SMGs in general.

The skorpion's stock is pretty miserable for aimed fire, if you've ever held one. It was almost an attempt at a PDW weapon, though it's ergonomics all lent more toward bullet-hosing. The Skorp also has a holster, like any normal handgun. It is sold in some countries without the select fire and stock as a pistol.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Three Dog on Fri 22 Jun 2012 - 3:03

@John_234 wrote:You realize a machine pistol is not just a pistol that is capable of automatic fire, but a term broadly applied to very small SMGs, right? That's why a Mac 11 or a TMP is sometimes considered a machine pistol. Machine pistol itself is a bit of an ambiguous term, because it was originally applied to SMGs in general.

The skorpion's stock is pretty miserable for aimed fire, if you've ever held one. It was almost an attempt at a PDW weapon, though it's ergonomics all lent more toward bullet-hosing. The Skorp also has a holster, like any normal handgun. It is sold in some countries without the select fire and stock as a pistol.
Yes, Mr. 234, I realise that the term 'machine pistol' does not apply to pistol that are automatic. A machine pistol is automatic weapon designed to be fired with one hand that fires pistol rounds, as opposed to an SMG which, while also firing pistol rounds, is designed to be fired from the shoulder. There is some argument as to whether the Skorpion is a machine pistol or an SMG, too, as is happening here. Razz

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by John_234 on Fri 22 Jun 2012 - 3:07

I'm pointing out you're being rather absolute about a categorization that is not widely agreed upon either way by experts. The Mac-11 is widely agreed to be a machine pistol. It has a wire stock for aimed fire. The automatic variant of the Mauser pistol was almost always used with a holster-stock, the Beretta 93r has a folding stock. It's really not absolute what makes something an SMG or a machine pistol.

Anyway, if you're going to be crass about I'd rather not argue. You asked for a gun suggestion, not a pointless debate...

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Three Dog on Fri 22 Jun 2012 - 3:10

@John_234 wrote:I'm pointing out you're being rather absolute about a categorization that is not widely agreed upon either way by experts. The Mac-11 is widely agreed to be a machine pistol. It has a wire stock for aimed fire. The automatic variant of the Mauser pistol was almost always used with a holster-stock, the Beretta 93r has a folding stock. It's really not absolute what makes something an SMG or a machine pistol.

Anyway, if you're going to be crass about I'd rather not argue. You asked for a gun suggestion, not a pointless debate...
I was just making fun, sorry .

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by John_234 on Fri 22 Jun 2012 - 3:20

I guess the internet does make it hard to read tone. If you meant no offense, no problems here.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Alfisti on Fri 22 Jun 2012 - 6:38

@John_234 wrote:That's why a Mac 11 or a TMP is sometimes considered a machine pistol. Machine pistol itself is a bit of an ambiguous term, because it was originally applied to SMGs in general.
Which neatly gives you two more candidates to replace the Skorpion with...

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Three Dog on Fri 22 Jun 2012 - 7:15

@Alfisti wrote:
@John_234 wrote:That's why a Mac 11 or a TMP is sometimes considered a machine pistol. Machine pistol itself is a bit of an ambiguous term, because it was originally applied to SMGs in general.
Which neatly gives you two more candidates to replace the Skorpion with...

Nah, I'll go with the MP7. Mac 11 fires too quick, and I'd use the MP9 over the TMP (I won't explain why, look it up. Or just ask nicely:P ), and I already gave that to Victoria. Now, beofre anyone says there's no reason two people can't use the same weapon, Mercdes and Victoria both opperate differently; it could almost be describe as one using Eastern Bloc tacticts and the other Western.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 22 Jun 2012 - 11:02

Triela has an MP7, so there is canon precedent for it being in the SWA armory.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by John_234 on Sat 23 Jun 2012 - 1:17

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:
@Alfisti wrote:
@John_234 wrote:That's why a Mac 11 or a TMP is sometimes considered a machine pistol. Machine pistol itself is a bit of an ambiguous term, because it was originally applied to SMGs in general.
Which neatly gives you two more candidates to replace the Skorpion with...

Nah, I'll go with the MP7. Mac 11 fires too quick, and I'd use the MP9 over the TMP (I won't explain why, look it up. Or just ask nicely:P ), and I already gave that to Victoria. Now, beofre anyone says there's no reason two people can't use the same weapon, Mercdes and Victoria both opperate differently; it could almost be describe as one using Eastern Bloc tacticts and the other Western.
The Russians use AKs. The Chechens use very similar AKs. The Vietcong used AKs. Military contractors often use AKs. Some of my friends hunt deer with AKs. Very different methodologies of use. Past size and logistical concerns, a gun is ultimately still a simple tool that depends on its user.

The MP9 for most purposes is just a TMP with a stock and a rail. So it's not a significant difference to use either gun for a given scenario~

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Three Dog on Sat 23 Jun 2012 - 1:39

@John_234 wrote:
Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:
@Alfisti wrote:
@John_234 wrote:That's why a Mac 11 or a TMP is sometimes considered a machine pistol. Machine pistol itself is a bit of an ambiguous term, because it was originally applied to SMGs in general.
Which neatly gives you two more candidates to replace the Skorpion with...

Nah, I'll go with the MP7. Mac 11 fires too quick, and I'd use the MP9 over the TMP (I won't explain why, look it up. Or just ask nicely:P ), and I already gave that to Victoria. Now, beofre anyone says there's no reason two people can't use the same weapon, Mercdes and Victoria both opperate differently; it could almost be describe as one using Eastern Bloc tacticts and the other Western.
The Russians use AKs. The Chechens use very similar AKs. The Vietcong used AKs. Military contractors often use AKs. Some of my friends hunt deer with AKs. Very different methodologies of use. Past size and logistical concerns, a gun is ultimately still a simple tool that depends on its user.
Mybe I should have used a different analogy, but I was making a referrence to the fact the Mercedes Handler, Barry, is former MI:6, which is in England, a western nation. Victoria's Handler, Andromeda, on the other is a Czech, and joined up back when Czecholsovaia still used Eastern Bloc tactics and training. I probably shouldn't have expected people to get that referrence though, should I?

Back to the analogy now. One's red and the other is blue. One's north, the other is south.

@John_234 wrote:[The MP9 for most purposes is just a TMP with a stock and a rail. So it's not a significant difference to use either gun for a given scenario~
Fair call.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by John_234 on Sat 23 Jun 2012 - 3:53

well, you tend to stick with what you grew up on, but it's definitely possible for your needs to overlap with your opposite. Glocks are a prime example. Both ex-East Bloc and NATO nations use them today in large numbers.

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Re: New gear fo my OCs

Post by Three Dog on Sat 23 Jun 2012 - 9:24

This may seem a little out of place, but under the secion labelled, Weapos Training, in the character profiles I'm writing up, I'm listing Laptop and Tablet computer under Mercedes' weapons. Should I go into specifics about the opperating systems etc, etc, and if so, don't s'pose anone can give me deatials, or at least some ames of devices that would be good for hacking and the like? I know shit all about computers.

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