Women in Combat

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Women in Combat

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 26 Feb 2013 - 17:56

Been wondering.

Females got cleared for combat arms in the US military recently. Service members have been up in arms about this development. They quote a number of reasons:

1. Physical fitness standards will be lowered to accommodate the women
2. The women will not be able to hack it in a combat zone due to, among other things, their inability to carry heavy loads (including artillery shells, combat gear and wounded male team-mates) and their personal hygiene requirements (menstruation, yo)
3. The women will only serve to distract the men. Resulting in sexual harassment cases out the wazoo, men doing reckless things on the battlefield to rescue/impress the women, et cetera.

All these are valid arguments. However, is there any particular reason certain militaries appear to have disregarded them entirely? The Red Army in the Second World War, for instance. Also, Israel. Did these armies encounter any of the problems outlined above when accepting women as combat soldiers? How is it that none of them are/were raising these complaints, and appear to have fared A-OK?

Those badass Russian female snipers whose stories we always hear about. Those hot IDF chicks we always see in photos. Were/are they capable of PT-ing as hard as any man? Could/can they carry heavy loads? Did/do they feel that menstruation while out in the combat zone is not a problem? Or have the tales of the former been exaggerated, and are the latter just rear-echelon troops who don't fight?

These are not rhetorical questions. I'm genuinely curious.

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Re: Women in Combat

Post by M240B on Tue 26 Feb 2013 - 23:29

Ahem. In my time as a Navy weapons officer, I have spent one groundside deployment with the United States Marines. During this time, I was not seen as a distraction. I was assigned a task, and though I did get the occasional swabbie or squid joke, I did my task. I was wounded. But guess what? Still did my job.

Now I'm joining the Army. Hopefully to become a Ranger. Girls are just as good as guys. I, am here to prove it.

Rangers lead the way!

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Re: Women in Combat

Post by M240B on Tue 26 Feb 2013 - 23:30

Also, IDF is a requirement for ALL Israeli citizens.

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Re: Women in Combat

Post by Il Direttore on Tue 26 Feb 2013 - 23:59

Nachtsider wrote:Been wondering.

Females got cleared for combat arms in the US military recently. Service members have been up in arms about this development. They quote a number of reasons:

1. Physical fitness standards will be lowered to accommodate the women
2. The women will not be able to hack it in a combat zone due to, among other things, their inability to carry heavy loads (including artillery shells, combat gear and wounded male team-mates) and their personal hygiene requirements (menstruation, yo)
3. The women will only serve to distract the men. Resulting in sexual harassment cases out the wazoo, men doing reckless things on the battlefield to rescue/impress the women, et cetera.

All these are valid arguments. However, is there any particular reason certain militaries appear to have disregarded them entirely? The Red Army in the Second World War, for instance. Also, Israel. Did these armies encounter any of the problems outlined above when accepting women as combat soldiers? How is it that none of them are/were raising these complaints, and appear to have fared A-OK?

Those badass Russian female snipers whose stories we always hear about. Those hot IDF chicks we always see in photos. Were/are they capable of PT-ing as hard as any man? Could/can they carry heavy loads? Did/do they feel that menstruation while out in the combat zone is not a problem? Or have the tales of the former been exaggerated, and are the latter just rear-echelon troops who don't fight?

These are not rhetorical questions. I'm genuinely curious.

As EL has said, women are just as badass as men. Frankly, the only reason we don't get more stories about women being badass is because they're either not really given the chance to do so OR they're in a society where badassery is expected, not exceptional OR they live in a war-torn region of the world where reporters can't go for fear of getting blown to pieces within the first 24 hours.

Examples:
Joan d'Arc
Violette Morris
Milunka Savic
Flora Sandes
Stagecoach Mary
The Dahomey Amazons
Hawa Abdi
Marie Colvin
Running Eagle
Grace O'Malley
Jacqueline Cochran
Genevieve de Galard
Princess Pingyang
Matilda of Canossa
Anna Yegrova

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Re: Women in Combat

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 27 Feb 2013 - 3:43

Emerald Lights wrote:Ahem. In my time as a Navy weapons officer, I have spent one groundside deployment with the United States Marines. During this time, I was not seen as a distraction. I was assigned a task, and though I did get the occasional swabbie or squid joke, I did my task. I was wounded. But guess what? Still did my job.

Now I'm joining the Army. Hopefully to become a Ranger. Girls are just as good as guys. I, am here to prove it. Rangers lead the way!

Also, IDF is a requirement for ALL Israeli citizens.
Then again, Em, you have to bear in mind that you are an exceptional, capable woman. Girls like you don't grow on trees. I don't predict that Ranger School will see many female graduates. What I do hope, however, is that you will end up among the proud few. More power to you for your ambition and drive, and for your sterling service to date.

I'm fully aware that IDF service is mandatory for all men and women of Israel. But are all the women cleared for combat? The answer, I've just found out, is no. According to an acquaintance of mine who is a frontline infantry soldier in the IDF, only the smallest handful of IDF women are kicking down doors and pumping terrorists full of lead. The lion's share serve in auxiliary and support roles, not as grunts. Women are actually barred from being infantry or special forces. Letting all the women serve on the front lines, he says, would be a disaster.

In his own words: "I guarantee you that only ten percent of the women currently serving in the IDF will be able to hack it in a combat zone - to withstand the vigorous demands of high octane battle. And maybe I'm being generous when I say ten percent. Truth: the men and women of the IDF do not train to the same PT standards. I've only ever met one woman capable of carrying a fellow soldier to safety without any trouble, of otherwise equalling a man's performance in the field of physical strength. She has a background in professional athletics, and is built like a brick shithouse."

El Conservatore wrote:As EL has said, women are just as badass as men. Frankly, the only reason we don't get more stories about women being badass is because they're either not really given the chance to do so OR they're in a society where badassery is expected, not exceptional OR they live in a war-torn region of the world where reporters can't go for fear of getting blown to pieces within the first 24 hours.

Examples:
Joan d'Arc
Violette Morris
Milunka Savic
Flora Sandes
Stagecoach Mary
The Dahomey Amazons
Hawa Abdi
Marie Colvin
Running Eagle
Grace O'Malley
Jacqueline Cochran
Genevieve de Galard
Princess Pingyang
Matilda of Canossa
Anna Yegrova

There are a number of names on that list I'm very familiar with, who have proven their worth in battle. But, like our Em here, they don't grow on trees. Your average girl cannot do these astounding things.

There are also a number of names on that list who, despite being brave and capable women who displayed much courage in the face of danger, did not actually fight. Despite what popular myth will have you believe, Joan of Arc and Princess Pingyang are among their number.

Bottom line: the military had better be very, very picky where it comes to accepting females into combat arms, and exact the highest standards during selection. Doing otherwise will only result in tragedy.

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Re: Women in Combat

Post by Il Direttore on Wed 27 Feb 2013 - 3:47

Nachtsider wrote:
There are a number of names on that list I'm very familiar with, who have proven their worth in battle. But, like our Em here, they don't grow on trees. Your average girl cannot do these astounding things.


Ah, true true. I see that we're probably discussing on different points then. I agree, then, that if you fail to meet the standards required to do well in combat, then you shouldn't go into battle. However, my thesis isn't that any woman can be trained and dumped into battle to perform at the same capacity as any man, but rather that the capacity for excellence is present, and denial of the opportunity to prove your excellence is, in my opinion, abhorrent. The question is not, therefore, "can any female soldier perform at the same level as a male soldier", but rather "can A female soldier perform at the same level as a male soldier".

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Re: Women in Combat

Post by M240B on Wed 27 Feb 2013 - 15:15

"Hey, tits or no, if you can use common sense and shoot straight, I'm more than happy to have you on my fireteam." - SSgt. "Bear" Mack. (Friend of mine, Infantryman.)

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Re: Women in Combat

Post by Wingdking on Wed 27 Feb 2013 - 16:57

As long as woman can do thire job and not have to have some one do thire job two I am cool with it
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Re: Women in Combat

Post by mysterybad on Fri 1 Mar 2013 - 0:23

In Việt Nam War we do have alot of All-Female Guerrilla ,Engineer and Artillery Group and they fought as good as any man can do.

1. Physical fitness standards will be lowered to accommodate the women

Most women do not as strong as men but they have more stamina endurance , cleverly and patience than men . That is why we have badass Russian female snipers in WW2 and badass Vietnamese female Guerrilla in VietNam War

2. The women will not be able to hack it in a combat zone due to, among other things, their inability to carry heavy loads (including artillery shells, combat gear and wounded male team-mates) and their personal hygiene requirements (menstruation, yo)
















3. The women will only serve to distract the men. Resulting in sexual harassment cases out the wazoo, men doing reckless things on the battlefield to rescue/impress the women, et cetera.

Sexual harassment - YES and those bastard will suffer

Men doing reckless things on the battlefield to rescue/impress the women - That is a good thing ,right?..


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Re: Women in Combat

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 2 Mar 2013 - 7:09

I'm curious as to how many of those photos are propaganda shots, and how many are of actual operations.

Most, if not all, the pictures I've seen of female Vietnamese troops show them carrying very sparse combat loads (just a rifle, with no helmets, no flak jackets, only a few extra magazines or grenades), or no combat loads at all. This supports the statements by military historians that the NVA never employed women on the front line, and that the Viet Cong, being guerillas, never employed them for anything more than isolated hit-and-run fights.

There is a difference between hit-and-run engagements, which were standard Viet Cong fare, and sustained combat. A proper combat load for sustained combat weighs at least fifty pounds:



Imagine one of the girls in that photo, having to lug that stuff around day in and day out for 2 weeks or more. If these ladies fought prolonged battles in a conventional war (i.e. not a guerilla war) against U.S. troops, I wonder how long they would've lasted.

Yes, mysterybad, I'm aware that some Vietnamese women did amazing things during the war. But to go around painting ALL the female Viet Cong and NVA as superwomen who could kick the asses of any American soldier is incorrect.

As for men doing reckless things on the battlefield to rescue or impress the women, no, that is not a good thing. I don't want people needlessly putting their lives at risk. And I'm sure neither would any rational NCO or officer.

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Re: Women in Combat

Post by M240B on Sat 2 Mar 2013 - 10:38

I know apparently I'm the exception to the rule (stop that, I really don't consider myself any different from my other servicemen and women.), but I HAVE been met with some degree of "you dont belong here" when I was with those Marines.

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Re: Women in Combat

Post by Il Direttore on Sat 2 Mar 2013 - 11:52

*As I say: The question shouldn't be about any woman on the battlefield, but rather about A woman on the battlefield. The decision to employ a woman as part of a front line infantry unit in sustained and continual combat should be based on the evaluation of that particular woman's performance.

The standard required to successfully kick ass on the battlefield is known and has been demonstrated by others before. Any one soldier must meet that standard in order to do their job. If you cannot meet the standard, you should not do the job. This is fairly typical, isn't it?




*I've not been in the military, so keep that in mind.

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Re: Women in Combat

Post by Officer_Charon on Sun 3 Mar 2013 - 20:08

As a personal preference, and I'm probably going to come off as some sort of throwback reactionary troglodyte.... I have no problems with women in combat arms, nor with them serving in front-line positions. But no double-standards: same physical fitness requirements, same examinations, same humps, same combat loads. Those who can hang, can stay. Just like for males.

I'm not so sanguine about the idea of integration with all-male units... for the simple reason that I forsee problems down the line with some individuals who AREN'T on their best behavior... I'm not talking about touchy-feely PC "clean up your potty mouths" shit - the language is part of the mindset, and no amount of cleansing is going to make it fine for Mothers of America. I'm talking the sort of sociopaths who creep in under the radar and give the rest of the service a bad name, like the Marines who raped the 12 year old in Okinawa, some years back. Scum like that.

I'm not able to verbalize my feelings completely on this matter, because I'm having trouble putting thoughts into words right now, but I'll give it another crack later...

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Re: Women in Combat

Post by mysterybad on Mon 4 Mar 2013 - 1:13

Those girl in the picture is the Ngư Thủy ALL-FEMALE artillery company - they fought so well that even Fidel Castro know about them and and visited them in 1970 . According to the report they wounded four U.S. warships with 4 85mm cannon from 1967 to 1970




And they are just a few of the many women who served in the Vietnam war on all fronts :Almost all units in service on the Ho Chi Minh Trail including flak unit, engineers , medic , transport and guard have female member if it not a ALL-FEMALE UNIT (a little information about Ho Chi Minh Trail :The U.S. has thrown in there more than twice the bombs they thrown into Germany in WW2 and it is still can provide 10.000 ton of supply and 3000 soldier per month)







In the South .Unlike what you often hear about Vietnamese female Guerrilla - Hit and Run tactics and very sparse combat loads is totally BULLSHIT : we have the MG unit and mortar unit with all size from 60-120mm and unlike the U.S troop who have helicopter,truck,tank...to move from base to battle field and carry those heavy weapon.we- the female Guerrilla carry them on our back and still can fight without airstrike or artillery support and WIN the war





There is a difference between hit-and-run engagements, which were standard Viet Cong fare, and sustained combat. A proper combat load for sustained combat weighs at least fifty pounds:

A Vietnamese female Guerrilla who weighs about 50kg can carry a 60mm mortar with 6 round + 1 AK with 3 mag + 5 grenades and move through the jungle - fight and move back,carry the wounded.ON FOOT

Yes, mysterybad, I'm aware that some Vietnamese women did amazing things during the war. But to go around painting ALL the female Viet Cong and NVA as superwomen who could kick the asses of any American soldier is incorrect.


The American soldier have Tank,helicopter,jet fighter to support them vs the Vietnamese women who have nothing but just a rifle, with no helmets, no flak jackets, only a few extra magazines or grenades.

That what you want to say,am i right?


This supports the statements by military historians that the NVA never employed women on the front line
We were there , in the very first day of our country , in 2/9/1945 we stand side by side with the man ,holding the flag and swore to regain independence



Even now,in time of peace , we - the Female Guerrilla still remains an important part of the VPA :





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Re: Women in Combat

Post by M240B on Mon 4 Mar 2013 - 7:38

Far as I'm concerned, a girl should have the CHANCE to do what her male counterpart can. If they can meet the requirements, awesome! If not, well things just weren't meant to be. It should have never been a question of us girls breaking a nail or smearing mascara.

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Re: Women in Combat

Post by boomer_gonz on Mon 4 Mar 2013 - 12:38

Emerald Lights wrote:Far as I'm concerned, a girl should have the CHANCE to do what her male counterpart can. If they can meet the requirements, awesome! If not, well things just weren't meant to be. It should have never been a question of us girls breaking a nail or smearing mascara.

Never said it before, nor will I ever. Personally, I follow the route of the California Parks Services Firejumpers as the requirements are the same for men and women, old and young alike. An equal measure such as this will in fact coincide with a lack of systemic discrimination.

Women in American combat have an almost forgotten history of service as the American Revolution saw female longrifleman in miltia service primarily because in Colonial America while men were off fighting the French and Indian War(or Seven Years War) families had to eat and women took to the longrifle more readily than muskets for their greater accuracy at a distance. After all a charging angry elk at 50 yards ain't no fun at all.

This in turn led to women being more proficient with the weapon and thus being more able teachers in it's use. The tradition continued into the American Revolution and even into the War of 1812 where the American sense of individual ownership led to men more readily owning muskets for home defense and women owning longrifles for hunting. Ironically this is somewhat similar to traditional feminine proficiency with the Naginata spear in Japan, but I digress. General Washington did not allow women to join the ranks of the Continental Army (a tradition that continued for over a century), but he made no mention of volunteer militia. Unfortunately due to the nature of militia involvement, records on exact members are scarce and the female riflemen as a whole only get scant mentions here and there.

Em; just remember to keep your head on the swivel, your ears to your six, and just be careful yeah?

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Re: Women in Combat

Post by M240B on Mon 4 Mar 2013 - 16:40

Hooah.

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Re: Women in Combat

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 5 Mar 2013 - 21:38

mysterybad wrote:Those girl in the picture is the Ngư Thủy ALL-FEMALE artillery company - they fought so well that even Fidel Castro know about them and and visited them in 1970 . According to the report they wounded four U.S. warships with 4 85mm cannon from 1967 to 1970

And they are just a few of the many women who served in the Vietnam war on all fronts :Almost all units in service on the Ho Chi Minh Trail including flak unit, engineers , medic , transport and guard have female member if it not a ALL-FEMALE UNIT (a little information about Ho Chi Minh Trail :The U.S. has thrown in there more than twice the bombs they thrown into Germany in WW2 and it is still can provide 10.000 ton of supply and 3000 soldier per month)
Flak units, engineers, medics, transport troops and guards are not the same as combat arms.

I'll give you the artillery unit, but take this into consideration: damaging four American warships over a three year period? Sounds like they got the light end of the workload. A lot of full-fledged combat artillery units inflict that much damage in a fortnight or a month, if not quicker.

Also, did the women pair up to load the shells? If they did (and I am almost certain that they did), the myth of them being 'as strong as any man' goes out the window.

mysterybad wrote:In the South .Unlike what you often hear about Vietnamese female Guerrilla - Hit and Run tactics and very sparse combat loads is totally BULLSHIT : we have the MG unit and mortar unit with all size from 60-120mm and unlike the U.S troop who have helicopter,truck,tank...to move from base to battle field and carry those heavy weapon.we- the female Guerrilla carry them on our back and still can fight without airstrike or artillery support and WIN the war
mysterybad wrote:A Vietnamese female Guerrilla who weighs about 50kg can carry a 60mm mortar with 6 round + 1 AK with 3 mag + 5 grenades and move through the jungle - fight and move back,carry the wounded.ON FOOT
These are very, very bold claims. Some solid evidence supporting them will be nice. When I say 'solid evidence', I do not mean propaganda reports or hearsay.

A fifty kilo girl, carrying a 24 kilo mortar with six shells on her back, plus an AK, three magazines and five grenades - doing so while under fire and still capable of carrying a wounded man to safety. I'll believe it when I see it. And I can almost guarantee you that most of the heavy lifting (ammo, heavy machine guns and so on) was actually done by your men.

mysterybad wrote:The American soldier have Tank,helicopter,jet fighter to support them vs the Vietnamese women who have nothing but just a rifle, with no helmets, no flak jackets, only a few extra magazines or grenades.

That what you want to say,am i right?
The only reason you people enjoyed the success you did? You fought very close to your homes and villages, melting away back into the civilian population as soon as you could. Insurgent warfare. You cannot compare this to sustained, full-on combat. How many of the PVA women would have lasted if they had to fight straight up and up close (as in REALLY up close) with the GIs or Marines, day in and day out?

mysterybad wrote:We were there , in the very first day of our country , in 2/9/1945 we stand side by side with the man ,holding the flag and swore to regain independence
Standing in a group photo alongside the men while holding a flag does not equal combat soldier.

mysterybad wrote:
Even now,in time of peace , we - the Female Guerrilla still remains an important part of the VPA :
Fun fact: the VPA of today does not allow women into direct combat. Just like any other army. Most of your women are auxiliaries and rear-area troops. I thought you of all people would know this.

The argument of "Oh, if the Viet Cong used women in combat, so can everyone else!" is flawed. The Viet Cong women enjoyed successes only because of certain factors that worked in their favour, factors that will not apply in a conventional war.

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Re: Women in Combat

Post by mysterybad on Wed 6 Mar 2013 - 1:06

Flak units, engineers, medics, transport troops and guards are not the same as combat arms.

BULL SHIT

I'll give you the artillery unit, but take this into consideration: damaging four American warships over a three year period? Sounds like they got the light end of the workload. A lot of full-fledged combat artillery units inflict that much damage in a fortnight or a month, if not quicker.

About The Ngư Thủy artillery company : Half of them died in combat.there are 23 girls - most of them unmarried and they died fighting when they was young,very young

" light end of the workload" MY ASS . they use the old 85mm cannon from World War 2 and still be able to fight against the big ships with BIG CANNON and air strike support in 4 YEAR and survived .That is what I call a hero in here.not some kind of ACTION MOVIE HERO but REAL HERO in REAL LIFE and REAL WAR

Also, did the women pair up to load the shells? If they did (and I am almost certain that they did), the myth of them being 'as strong as any man' goes out the window.

I SAID

Most women do not as strong as men but they have more stamina endurance , cleverly and patience than men . That is why we have badass Russian female snipers in WW2 and badass Vietnamese female Guerrilla in VietNam War

In their village (Ngư Thủy) there are very few young men,most of them is old-the young going to the South to join the battle . that is why they founded The Ngư Thủy ALL-FEMALE artillery company.because they have no man around


These are very, very bold claims. Some solid evidence supporting them will be nice. When I say 'solid evidence', I do not mean propaganda reports or hearsay.

A fifty kilo girl, carrying a 24 kilo mortar with six shells on her back, plus an AK, three magazines and five grenades - doing so while under fire and still capable of carrying a wounded man to safety. I'll believe it when I see it. And I can almost guarantee you that most of the heavy lifting (ammo, heavy machine guns and so on) was actually done by your men.

during the Vietnam War . we have performed that for the foreign correspondent. A 50kg guerrilla carry 2 artillery shells container in both shoulder (weighs about 100kg +) and move more than 300m.

on how to carry equipped : AK worn on the back , magazines on the chest,grenades on belt , and using pole to carry the mortar .very easy ,right?after firing off all the mortar shell , we can use the pole with hammock to carry the wounded

The only reason you people enjoyed the success you did? You fought very close to your homes and villages, melting away back into the civilian population as soon as you could. Insurgent warfare.

And then American soldiers come and kill everyone in the villages "because they support the VIỆT CỘNG , they deserved it".Hah...


You cannot compare this to sustained, full-on combat. How many of the PVA women would have lasted if they had to fight straight up and up close (as in REALLY up close) with the GIs or Marines, day in and day out?

That is not the guerrilla job ,Do not equate the concept.They are not stupid like you -We will be wiped out after a day if we do it :we are less equipped , don't have much train and don't have Tank,helicopter and Jet fighter to support us in straight up and up close (as in REALLY up close) fight .That is why we set the trap , mine and snipe every single GI or Marines in every single chance we have.

if we have full support - we kicked your ass in no time

Standing in a group photo alongside the men while holding a flag does not equal combat soldier.

It is an iconic image.DO YOU UNDERSTAND?

That picture was taken on 2/9/1945 in Ba Đình square - where President Ho Chi Minh read the Declaration of Independence and the Socialist Republic of Vietnam been born.we were there- in the very fist day of our country , we have shed blood and sweat and sacrificed our lives for that flag and earn our place in the army.

Fun fact: the VPA of today does not allow women into direct combat. Just like any other army. Most of your women are auxiliaries and rear-area troops. I thought you of all people would know this.

The argument of "Oh, if the Viet Cong used women in combat, so can everyone else!" is flawed. The Viet Cong women enjoyed successes only because of certain factors that worked in their favour, factors that will not apply in a conventional war.

Boy and Girl have equal combat training in High school.We don't have much women in VPA .YES. Most of our women are auxiliaries and rear-area troops.YES. But why ? because now is period of peace - Do you understand what "period of peace" mean?














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Re: Women in Combat

Post by M240B on Wed 6 Mar 2013 - 7:39

My grandfather's unit spent 2 weeks....WEEKS....hunting down a sniper that was killing his men, only to find that it was a woman. A lady was killing MARINES! So yeah, if that ain't a lady in combat, then I'm delusional.

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Re: Women in Combat

Post by Officer_Charon on Wed 6 Mar 2013 - 19:32



We'll table this right now.

The use of women as snipers is a non-issue: It's been a proven fact that women can and have made perfectly effective snipers.

The use of women as guerilla fighters is also a non-issue. See mysterybad's explanation, minus the rant and dialectic.

It boils down very simple. Anyone who can hump a load as described in the video can do the job. ANYONE. Those who cannot, should not.

Other, minor considerations like marksmanship and whatnot are also factors, but not something that is affected by genetics and body build like the simple matter of carrying a load.

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Re: Women in Combat

Post by M240B on Wed 6 Mar 2013 - 21:18

I digress. Bad example. Okay! Better example! Me.


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Re: Women in Combat

Post by Il Direttore on Wed 6 Mar 2013 - 21:45

Officer_Charon wrote:

We'll table this right now.

The use of women as snipers is a non-issue: It's been a proven fact that women can and have made perfectly effective snipers.

The use of women as guerilla fighters is also a non-issue. See mysterybad's explanation, minus the rant and dialectic.

It boils down very simple. Anyone who can hump a load as described in the video can do the job. ANYONE. Those who cannot, should not.

Other, minor considerations like marksmanship and whatnot are also factors, but not something that is affected by genetics and body build like the simple matter of carrying a load.

Soldiers RUN AROUND carrying that much stuff?!

What the fuck?!

That's more than the standard full body plate armor of Renaissance Europe!

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Re: Women in Combat

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 6 Mar 2013 - 22:22

They do, indeed.

While you're pondering that, go look up the physical requirements for being a Scout Sniper in the US Marine Corps. They will probably leave you shocked if you're new to them. Contrary to popular belief, being a sniper is NOT just about being able to shoot straight.

The reason why the Red Army women, including their snipers, could hack it? All of those involved in direct physical combat were athletic, robust types. Sportswomen, factory workers, farm girls - women used to hard labour, not delicate flowers. The only major female Red Army personality who wasn't particularly brawny was Lilya Litvyak, and she fought the war from the cockpit of a fighter plane.

If people want to use flawed examples to prove that any woman can fight on the front lines with no trouble at all, they can go right ahead. When needless casualties occur among the troops, male and female alike, as a result of their bright ideas, hopefully they'll at least be able to own up and confess they were wrong.

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Re: Women in Combat

Post by mysterybad on Thu 7 Mar 2013 - 0:39

All of those involved in direct physical combat were athletic, robust types. Sportswomen, factory workers, farm girls - women used to hard labour, not delicate flowers.

I have nothing to say to you , Moron

Do you know about Lyudmila Mikhailovna Pavlichenko the sniper (with 309 confirm kill) or Nina Andreyevna Onilova the MG Gunner who was awarded the title Hero of the Soviet Union or Maria Vasilievna Oktyabrskaya who had bought herself a tank and fight to avenge her husband,do you ever heard about them

And about those female who fought the war from the cockpit of a fighter plane we have Yekaterina Budanova , Marina Mikhailovna Raskova and Kachia Zelenko

If people want to use flawed examples to prove that any woman can fight on the front lines with no trouble at all, they can go right ahead. When needless casualties occur among the troops, male and female alike, as a result of their bright ideas, hopefully they'll at least be able to own up and confess they were wrong.

YES YES YES...and WE WIN.REMEMBER 30/4/1975? WE WIN

War does not determine who is right - only who is left.AND WE STILL HERE,ALIVE AND KICK SOME ASS



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Re: Women in Combat

Post by MP5 on Thu 7 Mar 2013 - 1:06

mysterybad wrote:

I have nothing to say to you , Moron

Yet you did feel the need to say something in return. You do realize he's not even American? He's just sharing his view on an American decision/shift in military policy.

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Re: Women in Combat

Post by mysterybad on Thu 7 Mar 2013 - 1:24

Yah...I know . Sorry about that

But I feel very uncomfortable about him because he's too despise about women - those who have served in war , we have shed blood and sweat and sacrificed our lives for that . and now he made ​​me feel that he considered us as superfluities


Yet you did feel the need to say something in return. You do realize he's not even American? He's just sharing his view on an American decision/shift in military policy.

Really ? He is not American?


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Re: Women in Combat

Post by MP5 on Thu 7 Mar 2013 - 1:45

He's not trying to be derogatory about women, he's just pointing out certain facts about how women usually end up functioning in a military setting, depending on the country in question. This thread concerns the roles women play in the United States military as opposed to say the Vietnamese military, so training in asymmetric or guerrilla warfare isn't as relevant here, as the subject pertains mostly to how the standards of a larger, more conventional force will be affected in terms of fighting strength now that women will for now be allowed to serve in infantry capacities.

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Re: Women in Combat

Post by mysterybad on Thu 7 Mar 2013 - 1:51

If so, he should put the title "Women in Combat in the US military" not just "Women in Combat" ,it will make people misunderstand

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Re: Women in Combat

Post by Il Direttore on Thu 7 Mar 2013 - 2:48

mysterybad wrote:Yah...I know . Sorry about that

But I feel very uncomfortable about him because he's too despise about women - those who have served in war , we have shed blood and sweat and sacrificed our lives for that . and now he made ​​me feel that he considered us as superfluities


Yet you did feel the need to say something in return. You do realize he's not even American? He's just sharing his view on an American decision/shift in military policy.

Really ? He is not American?


Allow me to explain something about Western Culture.

Western Culture emphasizes the search for evidence and justification behind arguments over the argument itself, while Eastern Culture emphasizes the argument first before looking at the evidence and the justification. The assumption in Eastern Culture is that you wouldn't make the argument if you couldn't back it up, whereas the assumption in Western Culture is that no argument can be made without evidence to support it.

Consequently, when you say that women in the Vietcong and Vietnamese Army do combat roles effectively, you are following the Eastern Convention. In other words, you would not say that women can do combat roles effectively if it wasn't abundantly clear for everyone to see. HOWEVER, Nacht is coming from a western perspective, which means that all he is seeing is a list of random claims that have no basis in reality.

As a result, it is not observed by your opponent that you have in any way addressed his concerns, and have followed up by calling him a moron. This results in basically nothing getting accomplished.

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Re: Women in Combat

Post by mysterybad on Thu 7 Mar 2013 - 5:51

As a result, it is not observed by your opponent that you have in any way addressed his concerns, and have followed up by calling him a moron. This results in basically nothing getting accomplished.

I know...I'm really sorry about calling Nacht a moron . I did not restrain myself and uttered the impolite word

@Nacht : I myself was a guerrilla ,that's why

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Re: Women in Combat

Post by Hamster on Thu 7 Mar 2013 - 10:02

mysterybad wrote:
I myself was a guerrilla ,that's why
Current Age: 20?

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Re: Women in Combat

Post by mysterybad on Thu 7 Mar 2013 - 11:13

I am a member of the guerrilla forces - a militia branch of VPA

Mr Lyn write about us in here : http://gunslinger-girl.up-with.com/t3081-military-life#96474

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Re: Women in Combat

Post by Hamster on Thu 7 Mar 2013 - 11:45

Ah, thanks. I just assumed guerrillas went back to being called soldiers during peacetime.
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