Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Alfisti on Tue 28 May 2013 - 6:39

El Conservatore wrote:Huergh, and here I was wanting to have a bonding moment between cyborgs via Doctor Who and a pajama party in somebody's room.
Well, it hasn't stopped fanfiction authors in the past... it all depends on how far the individual's disbelief can be suspended. I'll admit that mine tends to require one of the larger varieties of crawler crane.

El Conservatore wrote:Although... it wouldn't be that difficult to cause mass chaos in the compound via media. If you dropped "The Age of Steel", from season 2 of New Who, into the dorms, working as Section 1 and being "the idiot newb" who was stupid, it would probably have serious adverse effects on the girl's psyches. After all, isn't the Cybermen getting converted and having their mind de-emotioned and forced onto a single mindset exTREMEly similar to the way the girls are converted and conditioned to obey unquestioningly?
I imagine the right bit of media could do some serious damage... though dependent on whose version of the universe it is they may need to supply a TV and DVD player as well.

El Conservatore wrote:Derailing the topic aside though, it does seem like it'd be very difficult to put a cyborg into a deep-infil role. Based on this discussion, we seem to have generally concluded that the cyborgs would react negatively to a large amount of third-party media, if only because they might develop their own opinions to the detriment to their duties. Consequently, unless a cyborg were to be tuned highly specifically, and only if conditioning can do so, which I doubt, it'd be nigh impossible to use Gen. 1, and possibly Gen. 2, cyborgs to do any long term undercover work. Note that even Monty is working more as a brief infiltrator rather than a long term undercover operative. She just happens to globetrot.
Absolutely, Monty's role is "long duration" only in that she returns to Rome maybe three or four times a year. Her actual time spent in any one place is quite short, maybe a month or two at the most... and franly a deep-infiltration/the more realistic type of spy work of worming one's way into an organisation over months or years is even less well suited to a cyborg than her's is. There's too much time for someone to notice unusual patterns of behaviour; such as needing pills everyday (and not ones that come across the counter... though I guess feasibly that could be set up... but arrive by courier), odd twitches and reactions or, being out of action every couple of months or so and disappearing off the face of the planet.

Honestly though, I think the major reason to not use a fratello for that sort of role is that it's just a waste of highly expensive resources to have a cyborg locked into that sort of thing. If you need someone to sit around on their arse, living a mostly regular day-to-day life and occasionally feeding the odd tidbit of information back, well: humans are perfectly capable of all of it. Not to mention that, in canon at least, most of the girls (especially the Gen01s... Triela possibly excepted) seem to get itchy trigger fingers after awhile.

As to third-party media, I would agree: as a general rule, not a good thing for cyborgs to have much access too. I don't know if you could tune the conditioning to deal with it, but I also am inclined to say "no": a mind is too flexible of a thing, and I personally don't think the conditioning is quite the exact science it is sometimes made out to be. As far as individual girls being able to handle outside media: I would say it all comes down personality (which the conditioning seems to be able to suppress, but I'm not a great fan of the idea it can create a specific one): some will read, watch or listen and not be swayed; others should never be allowed near it... and in that respect, at the end of the day, I think it's probably up to the handler as to what he thinks his cyborg should and should not see once she gets off campus.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Il Direttore on Tue 28 May 2013 - 12:52

See now, here's a problem though: you can't be a kid and not know about some of the more popular media. For example, cartoons are a very common form of entertainment, so not knowing about cartoons could accidentally blow your cover. Sure, you can just say "I like to read instead", but then you'd need to know about quite a few books, the proper ones of which can be interpreted in enough differing ways that it'd be highly problematic for the SWA.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 28 May 2013 - 14:25

@Alfisti wrote:
@ElfenMagix wrote:The most inhumane thing I done with my characters is the creation of ''mission mode'', where with a command from the handler or SWA Upper Management, a cyborg forgets about everyday life and becomes a Terminator T-100 until the mission is done. To the agency, yes, the cyborg is a high performance tool. To the handler? Why to (you) think Fernando is fighting for cyborg rights? Then again why is the Agency giving such rights to only his two cyborgs?

I've fallen behind on your works, Alfisti, but let me ask, how does a cyborg in your universe handle strong emotions like Love? Especially Love since the conditioning drug forces the girls to love their handlers. Fernando and Rachel are too far gone in their father/daughter relationship, but Fernando/Francesca... Francesca is getting jealous that Juanita had slept with him more often than her and Francesca's mission married to Fernando...
When I was reffering to difficulties with "acting human" it was more intentioned to maintaining cover as a human rather than the inhumanities visited on the girls as cyborgs/non-people (in the government's eyes).

Example, and I'll spoiler this one as it's drawn from one of my later chapters.
Spoiler:
Jethro + Monty get captured, and the baddies are setting about to beat information out of Jethro. Should she wish, Monty could easily throw off the two soldiers holding her and would stand a pretty fair chance of visiting sizable damage on everyone in the room. However, it is not something a regular human, and particularly a regular teenage girl, could resonably be expected to do (as a generalisation... stories of superhuman feats of strength not withstanding)... and in order to maintain her cover and "live to fight another day" as it were, she has to sit there and watch Jethro get beaten up... completely against the Agency's programming. In an espionage role, it's one of those cases where basic cyborg nature is a huge liability.

As to love... it's not something I've really touched on in a general form in my writing. I tend to take the view that the girls love their handlers, and respond to potential "threats" on that level with jealousy... the more mature ones (like Triela) able to take a step back and think out the realities of the situation; whether they like them or not. As to Monty: as noted above, she's just as jealous as any other cyborg, perhaps even moreso (considering she lacks the wider support network of the girls at the SWA, and only has him), but has a good handle on managing those feelings. As to the actual emotion of love itself: it gets bottled up, trodden on and stored away... vented slightly when the Blackers acting out their usual cover stories: essentially play-acting out the relationship they would have, but don't have, under the auspice of cover... I always fail at finding a good way to describe how their relationship works.
This is why Fernando is such a proponent to 'Cyborg Rights' for as he tells his girls, "you are not a machine but a person with machine parts but a person nonetheless." And that is how he treats Rachel and Francesca - as people with independent thinking and free will. And as such as developed a relationship where their interaction is not flawed in human terms. The fault lies in that (damed!!!) conditioning medication and what it does to their minds and their way of thinking. Trying to break out of that program is difficult at best but it was done with Rachel and Francesca. For these reasons, the SWA will give 'Cyborg Rights' only to him and his girls; everyone else either has to shut up or put up a reason why they should have it.

In a story where such a situation you put into Spoiler, Jethro and Monty must have agreed a long time ago as to what is expected of each other during such times. Would Jethro want Monty to be the rescuer if it means that the mission would be over in a bad way? Or would Monty do what she thinks is right based on what he told her. In such a situation, it will be Monty's turn and interrogation of females does include rape. What would Monty do? Then again, at the first punch or slap to the face they find Monty unfazed by what had happened to her, what would they think? Now that is a sticky situation. I believe a crowbar to Monty's head would only just piss her off!

When Francesca was lost and managed to be 'captured' by the French, they used her amnesia against her and stole much of her cyborg technology that they could, replacing it with poorly constructed prosthetics as mentioned by the medical team that rebuilt her. For her it was not what she thought she could do something to protect herself because she could not think outside of her mind to know what was being done to her. It was a full abuse of her mental conditioning and using it to their advantage against her.

But there is no comparison between Monty and Francesca, despite being cyborgs, they are two very different individuals with different abilities and different cybernetic systems. And their handlers treat them differently as well.

@Alfisti wrote:
@ElfenMagix wrote:'Jetsetting secret agent' I believe would be a great role for a fratello team. Just have to figure out the details, like you have. All of Italy's problems are not set within Italy's boarders. Terrorism lies everywhere, and J&M flying about the world to find the high end terrorists is a job they do well. My OCs are a combination of CIA/SWA Anti-Nuke Terrorist Team, and though they have not left Italy yet, it has been proven through my universe that if some idiot wants to nuke Rome, they can try. They have but the Fernando/Rachel/Francesca/Juanita team was there to stop them.
It certainly makes for fun writing; but as a generalisation there are fundamental parts of the cyborgs' makeup which make it quite impractical (need for conditioning, maintinece, long ranges, potential for political blackmail should they be captured, programmed mentalities not suited to espionage work, etc). In J+M's case some of these issues are solved... but that's just the thing: they're a special case, and I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that, at least within the bounds of my own writing, the only reason Jethro+Monty get away with it is because they happen to be Jethro+Monty.
The same applies to Fernando/Rachel and Fernando/Francesca. Very Happy


@Alfisti wrote:
El Conservatore wrote:
@Kiskaloo wrote:
El Conservatore wrote:Well I'd argue that the cyborgs aren't getting nearly as much performance as they could for the given roles. Given that they're really shock troopers, it seems like they should have bullet and/or knife resistance woven into their skin (nanotechnology!) and faster nerve response time built in. Additionally, they should be trained to have more CQB capability and tactical thinking skills.
I would expect the CFRP musculature is where the bullet and blade resistance is, since it is fibrous. Claes shrugged off a knife to the gut and Triela uses her arms to block small-arms fire.

Henrietta has excellent reflexes considering how quickly she almost gutted that waiter and she air-kicked that "Bouncing Betty" anti-personnel mine Franco left behind. Triela is also pretty good with grappling combat in the first anime series.
Yes, Henrietta is good, but there's a difference between running forward and punting a thing/shanking an untrained redshirt and reacting to multiple threats popping into your vision and being able to react by precisely planting SMG rounds into their skulls at something close to max RPM. Triela is good, but Triela appears to really be the only cyborg that can pull off a fairly intense CQB action.What I mean is that ALL of the Gen. 1s should have been configured and trained in such a manner.

While the resistance in the muscle is important, CFRP and such also need to work and do so for awhile. If you cut a CFRP muscle, it's not going to grow back, so you HAVE to replace it. Yes, this is canon, but it's inefficient isn't it? If you have the tech to make a CFRP Muscle, surely you have the tech to make a nanotech knife and bullet resistant fibrous weave that you can work into the artificial skin?
A caveat: I tend to be of the school which thinks that the girls' skin is actually regular, human, skin, layered over some organic substructure to allow it to survive: skin is complex stuff and difficult to replicate, so the easiest way to make it look and feel real is to use the real thing: which would also hopefully mean it retains some minor self-healing capbility to deal with the cuts and scratches of everyday life.

I'll be frank here though: I'm not a great holder to the idea of "x has this technology, therefore they must also have that technology"... because in order to get the second you have to damn-near spend the development budget for technology number one again. Yes they got the nano-tech... but that was to regrow skin, and still required the girls to float around in a bacta tank. To then make that "skin" bullet resistant someone has to sit down, figure out how to structure the compound, engineer it, test it, make sure it behaves, looks and can fulfill the same function as regular skin, then figure out how to deliver the additional materials for the re-engineered "skin" and how to get the nanites to actually build the stuff having been originally developed to fulfill a different purpose. Yes it's all possible, but it takes time, money and effort.

And breathe.

In terms of what technologies the SWA has/doesn't have, I tend to look at it this way: the SWA is on the bleeding edge of medicine and bio-engineering. I'm sure if they could make bullet resistant skin they would, but they were probably flat out getting to where they are now. Remember: the cyborgs are not a starting point, they're the result of years of toil and billions of Euros investment. To now all the hours (and then some) have been used, all the Euros have been spent, and it has brought them to what we as the reader see in the story. From here on though, well: that's in the hands of the fan-fiction authors isn't it?

Either way, I think the "how cyborgs are put together structurally" discussion is one for another thread.

As to the training/configuration thing: well isn't hindsight wonderful? I imagine that, when they were building the first Gens the SWA was shooting in the dark somewhat; they've never done this before, and they didn't know what would produce the best shocktroops. Hence presumably the variety of backgrounds and the seemingly relatively free rein the handlers were given in how they trained and formed relationships with their cyborgs. Some things worked, other things didn't, and so when it came time for Gen2 there was some sort of yard-stick as to what worked and what didn't... not to mention the technology refined so that some of that useful training could be directly input to the cyborg's memory. I'm not saying you're wrong, I think you're right, but I also don't believe that, at the time, the SWA was in a position to know that.
The technology used in my universe is a combination of many throughout the years, but most exploited by a "Dr. Frankenstein" to put something together for Leprosy victims, again, after years of practice and experimenting.

Originally, Dr. Guiliani and Et. Al. did not have the technology, and experimented with many things, devising a prosthetic system for a 'cyborg' but it was flawed like everything else. When they had found Dr. Frankenstein and what he was doing, they basically stole his technology and used it for their own using him as a 'consultant'. In Boomer's Universe, its a very different story there, but again, the SWA stole technology in order to get what they want to make the cyborgs. From this the cyborgs are constructed individually as each part must fit the person exact or they will have to go through more training to get used to the differences. But there is a stock set of pieces which is used by all and then modified to fit the cyborg. It is not one size fits all kind of deal here, and a lot of custom tailoring to fit the cyborg's basic needs.

I do have to say that a nerve, like a wire on a conduit, will burn out if too much of a signal is sent through it in a single pulse by over voltage or by too much signal impulses over time by over switching. Anything above 14.1V will destroy a nerve cell and anything under 13.9V will not be carried over. It is a very fine line where a signal can go through a cell. Its a finely tuned chemical soup where if things are off by a tiny bit can go into a cascade failure with horrendous results. Only practice can hone neural pathways to get things to go faster and only 10% above normal. Ah, but what that 10% can do is amazing!

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Alfisti on Wed 29 May 2013 - 4:50

El Conservatore wrote:See now, here's a problem though: you can't be a kid and not know about some of the more popular media. For example, cartoons are a very common form of entertainment, so not knowing about cartoons could accidentally blow your cover. Sure, you can just say "I like to read instead", but then you'd need to know about quite a few books, the proper ones of which can be interpreted in enough differing ways that it'd be highly problematic for the SWA.
True, however I think it would only become an issue when applied to a cyborg in sort of espionage/intelligence or more socially interactive roles we've just spent a thread discussing are ill-suited to cyborgs anyway. If you look at what the girls seem to do mostly in canon, their interactions with the public at large are quite limited and their cover only needs to stand up to fairly mild scrutiny: enough for them to close to striking distance of a target without alerting the greater unwashed masses. For the short interractions they do seem to have, any lack of knowledge or unwillingness to answer could also be explained by bashfullness... perhaps that's why the Gen02s seem to have the odd music poster etc in their dorm room. I'm not saying it couldn't be an issue for the girls in canon roles, but that the likelyhood of it occuring for them is probably slim enough that it is not worth addressing over potentially more pressing issues (such as keeping the cyborgs on a leash and under control).

That said, while the canon girls don't seem to have access to media in the dorm, that wasn't to say they live devoid of any media: I just imagine whatever they watched would need to be vetted first and probably screened with supervision. Claes watches movies under Jean's eye, so a movie night may not be completely out of the question.


Elfen Magix wrote:In a story where such a situation you put into Spoiler, Jethro and Monty
must have agreed a long time ago as to what is expected of each other
during such times. Would Jethro want Monty to be the rescuer if it means
that the mission would be over in a bad way? Or would Monty do what she
thinks is right based on what he told her. In such a situation, it will
be Monty's turn and interrogation of females does include rape. What
would Monty do? Then again, at the first punch or slap to the face they
find Monty unfazed by what had happened to her, what would they think?
Now that is a sticky situation. I believe a crowbar to Monty's head
would only just piss her off!
I tend to picture it as something left to Monty's own judgement. She's been living this life for something going on two years by that stage, and not just occasionally but day-in day-out, so she's resonably able to spot when the balance tips from sitting and maintaining cover to needing to do something. At the end of the day, while Jethro doesn't want the mission to end badly, he would far prefer her to step in before he's permanently injured or dead... and it should be noted that sitting and watching is an uphill battle for Monty against her own conditioning.

Should the situations be reversed, again Jethro will let a certain amount slide... though part of me is inclined to think he would have less control over himself (though admittedly, with less dire consequences cover-wise than in Monty's case: he's not a superhuman death machine) than Monty would, and again there's a line to be drawn. If that interrogation were to head toward rape then, frankly, it's probably not Monty the interrogators should worry about flying off the handle. TSM wrote a short piece a little while back, and he's done a pretty damn good job pickingup what Jethro's reactions would be in such a situation... probably better than I could in all reality.


Elfen Magix wrote:From this the cyborgs are constructed individually as each part must fit
the person exact or they will have to go through more training to get
used to the differences. But there is a stock set of pieces which is
used by all and then modified to fit the cyborg. It is not one size fits
all kind of deal here, and a lot of custom tailoring to fit the
cyborg's basic needs.
Agreed. I tend to view it that dimensions and cosmetics are easy enough to do: make a leg longer here, an upper arm thicker there, change hair colour, eye colour, boost or reduce a breast size: not difficult (within limits of course, at some point all the tech needs to be crammed somewhere)... with a caveat that I do think erring too far from the original body type is going to make it more difficult for a girl to adapt to her new shell.

Beyond those mostly cosmetic changes, I tend to view there's a fairly standard intra-generational architecture (possibly a bit more variation with the Gen01 girls as the SWA felt its way through and tried a few things): how the limbs actually function and interface with the brain, materials used, joint designs, the basic conditioning process itself (which would need to have some play simply for different physiologies of donor-children). Changing that would be much more difficult and expensive. Of course they could probably bodge one or two things (Monty's power limitations for example) as well, but "doing it properly" would likely need more in the way of planning, debate and discussion as to what was the best way to spend the R&D time and money.

Just my take, your mileage may vary.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Il Direttore on Wed 29 May 2013 - 12:23

So, use awkward silence to palm stiletto, shank Padania when he looks away awkwardly and clears his throat?

Seems legit, though I would personally expect a cyborg to do more than just that.

In any case, while we've pretty much finalized that exposing cyborgs to media willy-nilly is dangerous, what if they could be exposed to media but were taught very specifically by their handler? You'd have to vett the handlers much more closely, of course, but developmental psychology and all that seems to imply that if the handler was to teach the cyborg that all humans have individual agency to make their own decisions, then that cyborg would likely interpret most works with that basic philosophical framework.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Alfisti on Thu 30 May 2013 - 6:25

El Conservatore wrote:So, use awkward silence to palm stiletto, shank Padania when he looks away awkwardly and clears his throat?

Seems legit, though I would personally expect a cyborg to do more than just that.
I think I was thinking more towards keeping the greater public fooled than some enemy or another. By the time a cyborg has closed to a point where they can have a conversation, then 90% of the time it's too late for the target anyway... again the ill-suited espionage etc. roles aside.

That said, and speaking more about the Gen01 girls here: sure you get regular children that age (call it 8-12 years as a ballpark) who will happily chat with adults etc, but by the same token you get just as many who are unwilling to say anything, so I don't think a clammed up cyborg would be too much of an eye-raiser, except to those who may have heard the rumours about killer tots and are on the lookout.

I'll admit, the longer this conversation goes on the more I'm coming to the conclusion that, while the cyborgs' "little girl" appearance suprised and kept the enemy off balance early on, its greatest use it to fool Joe Bloggs on the street or casual observers. It lets them move in public without raising eyebrows, keeping the masses from panic and lets them close on their targets. The Padania can't afford to jump at every man with a child in tow, and by the time a fratello has closed on its target enough for said target to start picking up warning signs, whoever is in their crosshairs will be in a much more difficult position to escape from.

Either way, as you said: different strokes... maybe it's just that I think the cyborgs have enough advantages and like to temper them more than others Razz


El Conservatore wrote:In any case, while we've pretty much finalized that exposing cyborgs to media willy-nilly is dangerous, what if they could be exposed to media but were taught very specifically by their handler? You'd have to vett the handlers much more closely, of course, but developmental psychology and all that seems to imply that if the handler was to teach the cyborg that all humans have individual agency to make their own decisions, then that cyborg would likely interpret most works with that basic philosophical framework.
So, if I'm reading this right what you're speculating on is a handler teaching his girl essentially that everyone has their own opinoins, but those don't need to be the same as hers and vice versa? So she would be more able to deal with mass media?

To use your own words: seems legit... so long as someone is willing to invest the time and effort (and if the handler thinks far enough ahead to implement said idea, which is fair enough), and the girl is receptive, then I don't see why not. Of course it might need to come with a caveat that everyone has thier own opinions and will take their own actions, but in some way, shape or form authority (see: handler, SWA and government, in no particular order) are to obeyed.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Il Direttore on Thu 30 May 2013 - 16:08

Well, I was really saying that as long as the handler ensures that their cyborg takes a highly specific worldview conducive to their cause, it should work out, right?

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Alfisti on Fri 31 May 2013 - 3:42

El Conservatore wrote:Well, I was really saying that as long as the handler ensures that their cyborg takes a highly specific worldview conducive to their cause, it should work out, right?
That makes somewhat more sense. Razz

"Should"... not the same as "will", but should. Of course you can't guard against all possibilities, but this take would probably work in fairly smoothly with the way the girls seem to be conditioned anyway should (there's that word again) a handler decide to go down this path.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Awinnell on Fri 31 May 2013 - 12:00

@Alfisti wrote:
El Conservatore wrote:Well, I was really saying that as long as the handler ensures that their cyborg takes a highly specific worldview conducive to their cause, it should work out, right?
That makes somewhat more sense. Razz

"Should"... not the same as "will", but should. Of course you can't guard against all possibilities, but this take would probably work in fairly smoothly with the way the girls seem to be conditioned anyway should (there's that word again) a handler decide to go down this path.
It would help if the SWA had some sort of Handler psych evaluation system in place, all of the canon handlers are either hell bent on revenge, being dragged along by a revenge seeking sibling, forced into the job by circumstances, out for personal gain , either monetary or medical, treat their cyborg as little more than a slightly more useful weapons system and have the emotional range of a rock !

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 1 Jun 2013 - 14:46

@Awinnell wrote:
@Alfisti wrote:
El Conservatore wrote:Well, I was really saying that as long as the handler ensures that their cyborg takes a highly specific worldview conducive to their cause, it should work out, right?
That makes somewhat more sense. Razz

"Should"... not the same as "will", but should. Of course you can't guard against all possibilities, but this take would probably work in fairly smoothly with the way the girls seem to be conditioned anyway should (there's that word again) a handler decide to go down this path.
It would help if the SWA had some sort of Handler psych evaluation system in place, all of the canon handlers are either hell bent on revenge, being dragged along by a revenge seeking sibling, forced into the job by circumstances, out for personal gain , either monetary or medical, treat their cyborg as little more than a slightly more useful weapons system and have the emotional range of a rock !
That all ends with the GsG Video Game(s, 1 - 3) and the "Fratello on the Run" Mission. Ernesto and Pia did a lot of damage to the SWA and all their cyborgs on that mission...

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Thescarredman on Sun 2 Jun 2013 - 22:47

Priscilla: So, you wouldn't date any of them, is that what you're saying?
Ferro: Neither should you, unless you have a taste for damaged goods.
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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Mainframe on Tue 18 Jun 2013 - 4:28

A lot of this discussion reminded me of the ultimate dilemma presented in Ender's Game. Namely using a child's lack of psychological development as weapon.

Clearly the Italian government, or at least the scientists, and doctors that made the program justified their work as advancing medical science and technology. But ultimately the conditioning repressed any sense of conscious the child may have developed up until that point, and set the SWA as the ultimate authority, and their handlers as the prophets of the SWA. On paper the bureaucrats might argue that Fratello teams can hide in plain sight, and carryout their dirty work quickly and in broad day light, but the reality is that the conditioning coupled with the augmentation makes for ruthless killer that won't hesitate on a thought, when a mature adult might. In my opinion, the SWA squandered the advantages of the first generation by sending them on raids that should have been carried out by ordinary GIS, resulting in unnecessary injuries (see Season 1 Episode 13) I suspect this had a lot to do with infighting with other intelligence agencies. Ideally (and this is how I expected the SWA to use supersoldiers disguised as little girls, at least more often than they did) The intelligence agencies, probably section 1, would locate, and track Padania/FRF agents, and give their routines over to Section 2 who could then lie in wait without arousing the suspicion of the Padania/FRF network or the general public until it was too late, and the enemy agent(s) had been assassinated. Other than in-fighting, the SWA may have deployed those raids in order to see how far they could push the operation limits of their cyborgs, and see how far they could expand the mission parameters of the fratellos.

After reading the preceding posts I think that SWA could afford such costly experiments because despite the limitations of the massive support network that the cyborgs and handlers rely upon to function and carry out their missions, it also allows for the damaged parts on the cyborg to be replaced, and put back into action in a matter of weeks (with minimal or moderate adverse effects) as opposed to healing naturally which may take months or years in the best of cases. Bottom line, the reduction in down time is an advantage that justifies, and necessitates the massive support network required to operate a fratello.
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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Alfisti on Tue 18 Jun 2013 - 6:21

@Mainframe wrote:The intelligence agencies, probably section 1, would locate, and track Padania/FRF agents, and give their routines over to Section 2 who could then lie in wait without arousing the suspicion of the Padania/FRF network or the general public until it was too late, and the enemy agent(s) had been assassinated. Other than in-fighting, the SWA may have deployed those raids in order to see how far they could push the operation limits of their cyborgs, and see how far they could expand the mission parameters of the fratellos.
Pretty much how I picture Section 2 fitting into the great grand scheme of things as well... the SWA afterall does not operate in a vacuume. That said, as you mentioned before Italy, in particular, suffers from infighting amongst its various agencies... so the temptation to hoard particularly juicy information for your own usage would be high. The truth, I imagine, would likely lie somewhere around 90% of the SWA's information coming from outside sources, with the last 10% being deduced internally... or something to that effect.



@Mainframe wrote:After reading the preceding posts I think that SWA could afford such costly experiments because despite the limitations of the massive support network that the cyborgs and handlers rely upon to function and carry out their missions, it also allows for the damaged parts on the cyborg to be replaced, and put back into action in a matter of weeks (with minimal or moderate adverse effects) as opposed to healing naturally which may take months or years in the best of cases. Bottom line, the reduction in down time is an advantage that justifies, and necessitates the massive support network required to operate a fratello.
Going back to the original premise of the thread, the question raises in my mind: at what point does that support network become so expensive that it can no longer be justified? I would agree that its cost is justifiable for a number of fratelli operating within Italy's borders: the chance of it being used is higher and you're covering a relatively concentrated area. Could it be expanded to cover the globe though for the odd occasion a cyborg must leave their government's protective umbrella? Probably not so much.

Taking Jethro+Monty out of the equation for a second, it would possibly be cheaper/easier, if a fratello needed to be sent into a tricky situation abroad, to send a support team along with them: slotting them into position via different vectors and routes. The best of my knowledge, the idea of a "lone agent" carrying out assassinations etc tends to be more of a fictional one anyway. How many people did the Mossad send on that botched job a few years back? Twenty-two (I'm on limited interbotz so can't look it up right now)?

Actually... packing up a couple of doctors, a few of the support crew, maybe some SRT and a couple of fratelli to do an away job could make a good story in itself. Hmm....

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Mainframe on Tue 18 Jun 2013 - 16:06

At this risk of going to far afield, I think the issue of a global support network was touched on in the latest Bourne movie, where the agents had to carry their own conditioning pills (for lack of a better term) and ran into trouble once they ran out. the U.S. program in the film, I think it was called Black Briar, was supported by a multinational corporation, and backed by global superpower, with considerably more resources, than an Italian pet project, supported by a presumably nationalized corporation. Incidentally, and pardon and spoilers, The CIA tried to liquidate Black Briar much in the same way the Italian PM tried to liquidate the SWA. I suppose what this proves is that to those in charge, a political return on investment is just as important as a financial return on investment when it comes to these grey area/ends-justify-the-means programs.
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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Alfisti on Tue 18 Jun 2013 - 21:57

@Mainframe wrote:At this risk of going to far afield, I think the issue of a global support network was touched on in the latest Bourne movie, where the agents had to carry their own conditioning pills (for lack of a better term) and ran into trouble once they ran out. the U.S. program in the film, I think it was called Black Briar, was supported by a multinational corporation, and backed by global superpower, with considerably more resources, than an Italian pet project, supported by a presumably nationalized corporation.
I must admit I've not seen any of the Bourne series. Despite enjoying writing spies I actually don't read or watch a whole lot of spy-fiction... beyond the obvious Bond and campy Eurospy fun (Danger Diabolik, OSS117, etc).

I think you've hit the nail on the head though that while it might be feasible for the US to run a global support network, Italy likely does not have the financial resources (especially considering the shape its economy seems to be in), nor the political influence to bail its agents out or force a foreign government to turn a blind eye. It is far easier for the US to twist someone's metaphorical arm up behind their back should it really come down to it than it would be for Italy to do similarly: not always an option admittedly,even for the US, but still a potential.

As to running out of conditioning drugs away from home, I did have J+M run into that issue at one point and, well, it does make for an interesting constraint to write around or twist to your advantage.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Il Direttore on Tue 18 Jun 2013 - 22:02

This does make for an interesting question: Given that the US probably has its meddling fingers in many pies, what's stopping it from noticing the unusual concentration of little girls in the medical facility devoted toward cybernetic technology and not sending a field agent out to see what's up for kicks, then finding out about the SWA and Section Two? Hell, what's stopping the US from just straight up stealing all of the everything from the SWA?

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 18 Jun 2013 - 22:13

One wonders what the US received in trade for the nanotechnology they sent to Italy to allow the girls skin to be applied in the bacta tank... Hmm...

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Alfisti on Tue 18 Jun 2013 - 22:23

@Kiskaloo wrote:One wonders what the US received in trade for the nanotechnology they sent to Italy to allow the girls skin to be applied in the bacta tank...
Or if the trade were even "fair" (at least in the eyes of anyone who wasn't the US)... perhaps, referencing what El said, they already have found out about the SWA and are holding it over the Italians' heads in order to get the cyborg technology, with the nanotech trade there to make it look not quite like outright theft.

Just a thought.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Il Direttore on Tue 18 Jun 2013 - 22:25

Considering the crapsackiness of Italy in canon, it seems more than likely that the US is somehow keeping the Govt. of Italy afloat. If nothing else, it would be unreasonably selfless of the US not to go "Give us your cyborg tech or we pull your funding".

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Mainframe on Wed 19 Jun 2013 - 5:00

I think the Italians have an advantage here, Italy, especially in canon is not noted for its transparency in government, and probably has easier time hiding their cyborg assassin program from the general populace. The U.S. on the other hand, while not a paragon for transparency has an expectation on the part of the populace of being transparent. Therefore no elected official, or even high ranking bureaucrat wants to be left holding the adolescent cyborg assassin bag.

That being the case, U.S. officials privy to the program are probably keeping an eye on the SWA, waiting for the agency to work out all the bugs before demanding that the U.S. get its piece of the proverbial pie. Then again the Italy may just offer up Giacomo Dante instead, although at this point Jean would probably go to great lengths to prevent such a deal.

It just occurred to me that there may be more to the research on Claes, If memory serves, the head scientist working on her used her data to present at a medical conference that he needed to travel to, though I very much doubt this conference was open to the public given the subject of the data collected. The Italian government may have agreed to turn over the data collected from the cyborgs to the American's in exchange for field testing any technology from the U.S.
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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Alfisti on Wed 19 Jun 2013 - 6:31

@Mainframe wrote:Therefore no elected official, or even high ranking bureaucrat wants to be left holding the adolescent cyborg assassin bag.
Possibly, but there's always someone who thinks they could get away with it... and who said the elected officials even got told? And I'll be honest: part of me very much doubts Italy would get off so lightly as to simply be able to hand Giacomo Dante over should the US be able to put together enough evidence of a cyborg programme to blackmail them with. Lets be honest here: the US (or any other superpower from ancient times right through for that matter) has never been particularly well known for the fairness of its foreign dealings, and with a programme which effectively boils down to "experimenting on children to create child soldiers" to hold over someone's head, it could demand pretty much whatever it wanted, use Italy as its puppet within the EU, or whatever else might take its fancy. I think the Italians would be working pretty hard to keep the US (and the British, and the Russians, and the Chinese, and the Iraelies, and anyone else with a half-respectable intelligence organisation) in the dark. Bits of the programme may find their way out (such as for the nanotech trade), but I'm doubtful they would willingly reveal the whole thing).

Perhaps I'm just overly jaded, but I'm solidly of the opinion that there is no such thing as a "friend" when it comes to international politics.

At least in terms of my own writings, the US (or any other foreign government for that matter) will not prithee to the SWA operation. It might have an inkling, but not much more: simply from a narrative perspective as it gives Italy, the SWA and, by extension, J+M one more, very powerful, very far-reaching, and very belligerent problem to worry about.


@Mainframe wrote:It just occurred to me that there may be more to the research on Claes, If memory serves, the head scientist working on her used her data to present at a medical conference that he needed to travel to, though I very much doubt this conference was open to the public given the subject of the data collected. The Italian government may have agreed to turn over the data collected from the cyborgs to the American's in exchange for field testing any technology from the U.S.
From memory, the data being presented was specific to Claes' artificial heart, not to her entirety as a cyborg. I think it would be resonably simple to word a paper or journal article in such a manner that its origins and cyborg programme as a whole would be disguised: I'mn sure the spooks would only be too happy to help. In fact, having that sort of research emerging from the SWA might actually strengthen its cover as a charitable organisation focused on cutting edge medical research and development. I think the family Angie's dog wound up with had a son who used a prosthetic leg which they knew to be sourced from the SWA, so presumably its public face uses technology from the cyborg programme anyway.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Il Direttore on Wed 19 Jun 2013 - 11:27

I've always viewed the SWA as being a nationalized corporation with a Special Ops division in its basement. *shrugs*

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 19 Jun 2013 - 13:09

El Conservatore wrote:I've always viewed the SWA as being a nationalized corporation with a Special Ops division in its basement. *shrugs*

Rico notes in the opening page of Chapter 2 that the government published a pamphlet at the start of the year mentioning the Social Welfare Agency and that parents who enrolled their disabled children received a federal stipend. Rico's parents saw this and promptly signed her up.

Now we know the Cyborg program existed at least two years prior to this (to account for Angelica, Triela and Silvia), so either the SWA has been around this long or the cyborgs came first and the SWA was created both as a public cover and as a way to leverage the costs of the Cyborg program by commercializing the technology.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Mainframe on Thu 20 Jun 2013 - 3:19

All valid points, when reading GSG I just assumed that the U.S. was not aware of what the SWA was really up to. As Afitsti noted, having the U.S. constantly trying to blackmail Italy would be a major headache for the SWA and the plot. Especially if the FRF could get its hands on the proof, and use it to delegitimize the sitting government. A rogue CIA  agent was responsible for training Pinocchio. Is this getting to far into Hypothetical land?
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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Alfisti on Thu 20 Jun 2013 - 4:21

@Mainframe wrote:A rogue CIA  agent was responsible for training Pinocchio. Is this getting to far into Hypothetical land?
I was always under the impression that John Doe (was that the name he was going by?) had left or been drummed out of the CIA before entering into Padania service. That said, hypotheticals are one of the things fanfiction is for... so who knows: perhaps he never left the CIA, or is looking for some means through which to buy his way back in...


@Kiskaloo wrote:Now we know the Cyborg program existed at least two years prior to this (to account for Angelica, Triela and Silvia), so either the SWA has been around this long or the cyborgs came first and the SWA was created both as a public cover and as a way to leverage the costs of the Cyborg program by commercializing the technology.
I was under the impression that the SWA was created at the same time as the cyborg programme as its public cover, or at least at the point that enough isolated research had been done in order to put forward a case to continue further and into human trials. Someone, I'm guessing Petris or Lorenzo, was presumably bright enough to pitch both its uses to drive toward commercialisation and warfighting (for want of a better word) capabilites to play a number of different parties for support.

I think they way that the staff talk about Angie supports the idea that a live cyborg only occured after the SWA was founded.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 21 Jun 2013 - 0:36

@Alfisti wrote:
@Mainframe wrote:A rogue CIA  agent was responsible for training Pinocchio. Is this getting to far into Hypothetical land?
I was always under the impression that John Doe (was that the name he was going by?) had left or been drummed out of the CIA before entering into Padania service. That said, hypotheticals are one of the things fanfiction is for... so who knows: perhaps he never left the CIA, or is looking for some means through which to buy his way back in...

John Doe was out of the CIA for many years before joining Christiano and Padania.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Thescarredman on Fri 21 Jun 2013 - 15:55

El Conservatore wrote:This does make for an interesting question: Given that the US probably has its meddling fingers in many pies, what's stopping it from noticing the unusual concentration of little girls in the medical facility devoted toward cybernetic technology and not sending a field agent out to see what's up for kicks, then finding out about the SWA and Section Two? Hell, what's stopping the US from just straight up stealing all of the everything from the SWA?

Hm. Sounds like a great idea for a collab...
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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Mainframe on Sun 23 Jun 2013 - 3:31

I'd be willing to contribute.
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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Thescarredman on Mon 24 Jun 2013 - 0:04

Err, was talking about 'Rehabilitation Branch'. Contributions welcome.
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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Il Direttore on Tue 2 Jul 2013 - 17:28

Some of us forum goers are probably familiar with 3D  but the name tells you exactly what happens. The reason I bring this up, though, is because there's been some miscellaneous discussion regarding the way cyborgs are armored. While currently, the technology is used primarily in the aerospace industry, as far as I can find in my research, it seems that it's also looking to be used in biomedical engineering and personal armor.

Conceivably, then, you could use some sort of polymer or other material with high toughness and form some sort of armor layer. I've found one paper from China that demonstrates that research of some kind is being conducted on the use of kevlar (the paper specifies a kevlar/glass hybrid), so I wanted to throw the idea in here to see whether it would solve any of the problems we've discussed.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Mainframe on Wed 3 Jul 2013 - 17:39

It might be help getting the cyborgs past metal detectors. I think the bigger issue is the cumbersome support network that the Cyborgs need to stay in tip-top fighting condition.
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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 3 Jul 2013 - 23:28

@Mainframe wrote:...I think the bigger issue is the cumbersome support network that the Cyborgs need to stay in tip-top fighting condition.

 That is the handler's responsibility.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 3 Jul 2013 - 23:33

@Alfisti wrote:
@Mainframe wrote:Therefore no elected official, or even high ranking bureaucrat wants to be left holding the adolescent cyborg assassin bag.
Possibly, but there's always someone who thinks they could get away with it... and who said the elected officials even got told? And I'll be honest: part of me very much doubts Italy would get off so lightly as to simply be able to hand Giacomo Dante over should the US be able to put together enough evidence of a cyborg programme to blackmail them with. Lets be honest here: the US (or any other superpower from ancient times right through for that matter) has never been particularly well known for the fairness of its foreign dealings, and with a programme which effectively boils down to "experimenting on children to create child soldiers" to hold over someone's head, it could demand pretty much whatever it wanted, use Italy as its puppet within the EU, or whatever else might take its fancy. I think the Italians would be working pretty hard to keep the US (and the British, and the Russians, and the Chinese, and the Iraelies, and anyone else with a half-respectable intelligence organisation) in the dark. Bits of the programme may find their way out (such as for the nanotech trade), but I'm doubtful they would willingly reveal the whole thing).

Perhaps I'm just overly jaded, but I'm solidly of the opinion that there is no such thing as a "friend" when it comes to international politics.

At least in terms of my own writings, the US (or any other foreign government for that matter) will not prithee to the SWA operation. It might have an inkling, but not much more: simply from a narrative perspective as it gives Italy, the SWA and, by extension, J+M one more, very powerful, very far-reaching, and very belligerent problem to worry about.

This is Italy we are talking about, where most of the politicians are dirty or want to hang a dirty colleague so they can take their place in the dirt.

But none of them wants to get caught with UN Resolution #A/RES/54/263.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Alfisti on Thu 4 Jul 2013 - 4:19

@ElfenMagix wrote:
@Mainframe wrote:...I think the bigger issue is the cumbersome support network that the Cyborgs need to stay in tip-top fighting condition.

 That is the handler's responsibility.

To an extent it is the handler's responsibilty.

Fully agreed: the handler is the front line, as it were, for keeping the cyborg in tip-top condition and at the end of the day the buck for that responsibility stops with him. It's the handler's job to ensure his girl is trained, provisioned, clothed, fed and to keep an eye on her day-to-day for anything going awry. If something does look off, it is his responsibility to either fix it if he can or avail his fratello of the SWA's facilities if he can't.

It is the responsibility of the SWA to provide those facilities, the steady stream of conditioning drugs, doctors, diagnostic equipment, repairs, spare parts and plethora of other items and services reauired to keepa highly tuned cyborg "mechanically" (for want of a better word) fit for duty...

...All of which is useless if it is out of range, or if the handler does not utilise it.

It's that support network I think Mainframe was refferring to.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Il Direttore on Thu 4 Jul 2013 - 11:43

Well, the reason I brought up the idea in the first place is because it seemed possible to mitigate some of the issues we have with cyborgs via the 3D weaving technology. Greater durability to ballistic impact would mitigate the need for major surgery, and creation of muscles would be much easier if you could manufacture the entire muscle en bloc rather than in strands. All of this contributes to the possibility of less need of surgery, lowered cost or streamlining of diagnosis, repair and spare parts to be easier to get and to use, and even the possibility of using less conditioning medication.

Then again, it's starting to seem like I may be the only person interested in this subject, so....

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Kiskaloo on Thu 4 Jul 2013 - 15:55

But are not muscles dependent on their stranding for their performance? If you molded them as a solid unit, I would expect them to be far less effective.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Il Direttore on Thu 4 Jul 2013 - 17:27

@Kiskaloo wrote:But are not muscles dependent on their stranding for their performance? If you molded them as a solid unit, I would expect them to be far less effective.

Well, I guess I meant that you could manufacture the entire muscle in one pass rather than make multiple fibers, then build them into a bundle, then bundle that into a muscle. This way, you can streamline the process and produce the muscle more efficiently and more quickly, while also allowing you to build in more strength in one or another axis.

Alternatively, you could weave all the strands into an interlocking system in three dimensions. This would allow for reinforcement and resistance to breaking when under stress, as the force would be distributed across multiple fibers. The artificial muscle doesn't really care if the lines are in parallel, because the impulse to contract would make everything shorten in length rather than clip and pull (as it does in natural muscles), so such a weave would be superior.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 5 Jul 2013 - 0:10

El Conservatore wrote:Well, the reason I brought up the idea in the first place is because it seemed possible to mitigate some of the issues we have with cyborgs via the 3D weaving technology. Greater durability to ballistic impact would mitigate the need for major surgery, and creation of muscles would be much easier if you could manufacture the entire muscle en bloc rather than in strands. All of this contributes to the possibility of less need of surgery, lowered cost or streamlining of diagnosis, repair and spare parts to be easier to get and to use, and even the possibility of using less conditioning medication.

There is a reason why nature over the billions of years uses fibers instead of blocks. The damage would be catastrophic to the cyborg when it fails and not now always mean lower costs, streamlining diagnostics, or easy of maintenance and repairs. If you own a car, you would know that the promise of some tools and car items seem to never hold up to their promise of ease and better.

These are human beings we are taking about, and conditioning depends on their brains' ability to adapt to the cybernetics. Issue like Phantom Limb Syndrome and  Nuero Connection Failure would be controlled by the conditioning medication and not what parts were used for bullet resistance protection. Armouring a cyborg would be the least of the engineers' problems when they have to deal with individuals and their individual reconstruction needs (Angie was paralyzed from the neck down, so the cybernetics had to deal with Neuro Reconnection from the point of injury and heal what it can to restore her other functions). The medication is to make sure that the brain/body connection remains, even to the cybernetic parts. It is also used to kill pain when it happens, so as Henrietta said it, "I get shot but the pain quickly goes away." Interlocking pieces are great for the skeleton, not for the muscles, as it will introduce stress fractures and that would be catastrophic for muscles to develop stress fractures. It would be like bending metal back and forth until it breaks.

In Chapter 25 of UN Resolution it deals with a girl who underwent Implant Failure, though she got her cybernetics from the local hospital and not the SWA as she was a Hit-and-Run victim. Since she was a Mafia Princess, her father was willing to do anything for her, and they were sent to the SWA under the protest of many incluing Dr. Bianchi who made the diagnosis. But as Fernando told them (with poking finger hard into chest), its not fair for this girl to live until horrid conditions of a quadriplegic in a catatonic state. What happens to her nest remains to be seen as I have not gotten there yet in the writing.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Il Direttore on Fri 5 Jul 2013 - 0:40

Er, Elfen, I think you've misunderstood what I mean by interlocking.

What I'm saying is not that everything locks together via bolts or fusing or something, but rather that each fiber is braided so that tension along one fiber causes transmission of the force to the others, creating increased net tensile strength. In other words, you would make a rope out of artificial muscle fibers. Since the modulus of elasticity for something of this nature is rather high, especially considering the amount of tension force applied when lifting, say, an I-beam off of someone, you would expect them to be able to withstand a fair amount of ballistic impact.

In any case, the point I make is that such a braided structure doesn't need to just be a basic rope, it can be basically any braid or weave that you want, because we're talking about millions of fibers that most likely contract based on some sort of electrical impulse. Assuming you don't screw up the braid/weave design, you should retain good strand mobility while allowing for very high tensile strength.

Er, and additionally, 3D Composite Weaving doesn't need to be just for materials. It's also being researched for use to create adhesion structures to create artificial cartilage in vitro.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 5 Jul 2013 - 0:44

The word you are looking for is interweave, not interlock. There is a major difference between the two and the first is what you are describing, not the latter.

As discussed in the chat, I would not worry about it, we all make mistakes.


Last edited by ElfenMagix on Fri 5 Jul 2013 - 0:46; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Il Direttore on Fri 5 Jul 2013 - 0:46

....

*facepalm*

Mother f******.

Yes I need interweave, thank you for the correction.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Il Direttore on Tue 23 Jul 2013 - 15:18

So, I dunno if this is a good place, but has anyone considered that the SWA is literally not allowed to fail a mission? Because if ANYONE escapes, they're completely blown.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 23 Jul 2013 - 16:58

El Direttore wrote:So, I dunno if this is a good place, but has anyone considered that the SWA is literally not allowed to fail a mission? Because if ANYONE escapes, they're completely blown.

 Well they've failed at least three times: 

1) Hilshire and Triela with Mario Bossi in Naples.

2) Hilshire and Triela with Franco, Franca and Pinocchio in Montalcino.

3) Section 1 with Franco and Franca in Casal Morena.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Alfisti on Tue 23 Jul 2013 - 17:34

@Kiskaloo wrote:
El Direttore wrote:So, I dunno if this is a good place, but has anyone considered that the SWA is literally not allowed to fail a mission? Because if ANYONE escapes, they're completely blown.

 Well they've failed at least three times: 

1) Hilshire and Triela with Mario Bossi in Naples.

2) Hilshire and Triela with Franco, Franca and Pinocchio in Montalcino.

3) Section 1 with Franco and Franca in Casal Morena.

 And, to be fair, in the manga, rumors of superhuman killer kids do seem to be spreading through the Italian criminal underworld.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Il Direttore on Tue 23 Jul 2013 - 17:51

Ehh... Mario Bossi was already friendly though. And by the next real engagement after the Pinnochio Arc, the Padania do have borg-killer weaponry. Why it's not been blown completely open is beyond me though. I would expect that the Padania would just use this to destroy the government and take over.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 23 Jul 2013 - 18:06

El Direttore wrote:Ehh... Mario Bossi was already friendly though. And by the next real engagement after the Pinnochio Arc, the Padania do have borg-killer weaponry. Why it's not been blown completely open is beyond me though. I would expect that the Padania would just use this to destroy the government and take over.

The only really way that would work would be for Padania to successfully capture a cyborg (probably alive because a dead one could be dismissed as a macabre fake and that would probably result in even more condemnation of Padania).

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Il Direttore on Tue 23 Jul 2013 - 18:21

Huh. You're saying that it's a case of reality being so ridiculous nobody believes that it's true?

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 23 Jul 2013 - 18:24

El Direttore wrote:Huh. You're saying that it's a case of reality being so ridiculous nobody believes that it's true?

Pretty much. Even if Italy is the world leader in cybernetics, what the SWA has released to the public so far is no where near to the level of what Section 2 is using.

If Padania did show a piece of a cyborg, I could see the government (which, remember, controls 70% of the media per canon) dismissing it as "someone raiding James Cameron's house and stealing his Terminator props". Smile

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Alfisti on Tue 23 Jul 2013 - 22:46

@Kiskaloo wrote:
El Direttore wrote:Huh. You're saying that it's a case of reality being so ridiculous nobody believes that it's true?

Pretty much. Even if Italy is the world leader in cybernetics, what the SWA has released to the public so far is no where near to the level of what Section 2 is using.

If Padania did show a piece of a cyborg, I could see the government (which, remember, controls 70% of the media per canon) dismissing it as "someone raiding James Cameron's house and stealing his Terminator props". Smile
In many ways going in half-cocked on a "cyborg children" claim could risk doing more damage to the Padania/Lega Nord (on the assumption it would come through the legitimate political arm) than good. Without concrete evidence it would be all to easy for the government to paint them as a group of slobbering internet loonies: not only mad enough to think breaking up Italy is a good idea, but also that the government is running around with cybernetic kids, and to blame it on a well known charity no less!

Even if they did manage to bring in a captured cyborg, I doubt she would be in an exactly co-operative mood. Afterall, her conditioned loyalties are not just to her handler but also to Italy and the SWA itself.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Mainframe on Tue 23 Jul 2013 - 23:29

Well we all saw what happened when Raballo tried to walk away from the SWA. But even if he did blow the whistle on them, it would be easy enough for the government to discredit him. I guess the hard part would be silencing the Carabineri, and army units that took part in the New Trino assault, and the raid on the SWA compound, not to mention if any Padania mercenaries survived their injuries, and were captured. The government can only discredit so many people before they start looking guilty.
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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Alfisti on Tue 23 Jul 2013 - 23:43

@Mainframe wrote:Well we all saw what happened when Raballo tried to walk away from the SWA. But even if he did blow the whistle on them, it would be easy enough for the government to discredit him. I guess the hard part would be silencing the Carabineri, and army units that took part in the New Trino assault, and the raid on the SWA compound, not to mention if any Padania mercenaries survived their injuries, and were captured. The government can only discredit so many people before they start looking guilty.

 I always worked on the assumption that those units involved at New Trino and the compound raid also held high enough security clearances to be made aware of what the SWA was.

Either way, while it would be possible (internet loonies aside) to discredit individuals, I'm sure the government would prefer not to have the problem in the first place.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 23 Jul 2013 - 23:51

@Alfisti wrote:
I always worked on the assumption that those units involved at New Trino and the compound raid also held high enough security clearances to be made aware of what the SWA was.

I was inclined to take the view that the units were told a rogue government operation took over the plant. So they went in not know the specifics of the Agency, just that they were a threat.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Officer_Charon on Wed 24 Jul 2013 - 2:33

That'd be a safe assumption. When you're dealing with low-level troops to perform actions against "formerly friendly" units, the less information you feed them, the better. Keep 'em motivated and facing forwards, and don't give them time to think about what's going on.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by Mainframe on Wed 7 Aug 2013 - 20:13

@Officer_Charon wrote:That'd be a safe assumption. When you're dealing with low-level troops to perform actions against "formerly friendly" units, the less information you feed them, the better. Keep 'em motivated and facing forwards, and don't give them time to think about what's going on.

 That is probably the most plausible scenario.
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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by taerKitty on Sun 25 Aug 2013 - 1:03

Damn, you people type a lot.  I have pretty much given up on the point-by-point reply that evidences Alfisti's mastery of this forum and am just going to start posting drive-bys from now on.

I'm writing a Gen-One, and my take is simple.  The cyborg is good for tasks, but short on strategy.  The handler needs to supply that.  I don't believe in a 'mission mode' or anything like that - the girls are like any other kid their age: distraction-prone, overconfident at times to their detriment, and lacking initiative in others.

I don't see the Gen-Ones faring very well when sent on their own.  They will follow their training,but their ability to improvise or react to unexpected turns makes them very risky to "fire and forget."

As is always the case when I spout absolutist crap like this, feel free to have your cyborgs run loose independently, plan their own ops, and be strike team leaders.  It's your fic, so you can do what you want.

I may do it, too.  Just don't expect it to end well for the cyborg.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by John_234 on Tue 3 Sep 2013 - 14:00

Well, Amsel and Luce were designed pretty much as an offshoot of this issue. Luce is essentially useless for normal intel work with her disability, why not find something for her to do? She can still do the whole, walk by without attracting attention, kill a mark then leave, but it's not what she's useful for like everyone else.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by taerKitty on Tue 3 Sep 2013 - 15:21

Just because she's mute doesn't mean she can't do 

- Sneak-n-snatch (think Mission: Impossible I wire-suspension scene)

- 'Stalking horse': she doesn't do the actual taking down / taking out, but instead is the eye candy that distracts the mark.

- Rico-style "pound the crap outta him until he talks" interrogations.

- Or the plain-old "we need someone to get a floorplan of the place" espionage.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by John_234 on Tue 3 Sep 2013 - 22:58

I suppose any job where her discovery, period is a mission compromised regardless if she can bluff her way out of it or not could work.

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

Post by taerKitty on Tue 3 Sep 2013 - 23:21

Again, it's all a matter of how the mission is planned out.  It's possible to have her being discovered be part of the mission.  And, if not, there are plenty of missions in which she can take part simply as an asset or team member and not the Heavy Hitter.

It's a matter of imagination.

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taerKitty

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Re: Sorry, But You're Just Not Suited to This Position...

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