Weapon Size Comparison

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Weapon Size Comparison

Post by Il Direttore on Sat 17 Aug 2013 - 15:55

Want to give your cyborg an NTW-20? Consider the following image: 



(Also, lazy erasing is lazy on the NTW-20. Lulz)

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Re: Weapon Size Comparison

Post by taerKitty on Sat 17 Aug 2013 - 16:01

Dina: Signore Paolo?  I'll stop complaining that the 90Two is too big, starting now.

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Re: Weapon Size Comparison

Post by tremec6speed on Sat 17 Aug 2013 - 17:18

Sandro:
What's this? Weapon size comparison?
Heh, heh, well lemme tell you, they don't call me 'rifle' for nothin' eh? *whack* Hey!
Petra:
Yeah but not large weapons that jam under pressure either!
Sandro: HEY!!
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Re: Weapon Size Comparison

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 17 Aug 2013 - 18:24

Lifting and maneuvering such a weapon should be of little problem for a cyborg due to their enhanced strength and reflexes. Recoil might be an issue, depending on how heavy a cyborg is (many of us tend to write them as being heavy, but if they're primarily CFRP and titanium, the weight might not be that extreme).

Of course, such a weapon would be a "special occasion" item so they'd be employing it with appropriate support kit.

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Re: Weapon Size Comparison

Post by Alfisti on Sat 17 Aug 2013 - 22:08

Having the strength to lift and move a large weapon around I don't think would be an issue: being able to get a decent grip on the thing in order to do so and use it effectively however would be a completely different issue. I think a cyborg (paritcularly one of the younger ones) falls fairly solidly outside the 5-95% that the military's equipment is generally designed to.

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Re: Weapon Size Comparison

Post by Odon on Sat 17 Aug 2013 - 23:01

A related factor; whether the smaller cyborgs can reach the trigger on some of these double column magazine pistols they've been issued.

PS. I also thought this thread was about the handlers having a dick-measuring contest...

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Re: Weapon Size Comparison

Post by Alfisti on Sat 17 Aug 2013 - 23:11

@Odon wrote:PS. I also thought this thread was about the handlers having a dick-measuring contest...
^ this.

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Re: Weapon Size Comparison

Post by taerKitty on Sun 18 Aug 2013 - 0:23

Well, if the op calls for taking out an armoured car, I can see that.  But I can also see a handler looking at Lorenzo and asking, "Are you on drugs?!"

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Re: Weapon Size Comparison

Post by Piero on Mon 19 Aug 2013 - 19:27

I'd actually been thinking of doing a thread for ideas for weapons for really short characters (I say really short because it seems to me that there are probably plenty of five footers who have carried ordinary service rifles in combat zones around the globe).

The M4 and many similar AR-15 based carbines have length adjustable telescoping buttstocks.  The stocks on many newer assault rifles such as FN SCAR and Beretta ARX-160 are also length adjustable.

As for the NTW-20, it can be broken down and carried by two people over long distances.  But frankly there aren't a lot of SWA missions that would require a weapon that big.  Even the smaller .50 anti material rifles are probably overkill for a lot of SWA missions.

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Re: Weapon Size Comparison

Post by taerKitty on Mon 19 Aug 2013 - 19:29

@Alfisti wrote:
@Odon wrote:PS. I also thought this thread was about the handlers having a dick-measuring contest...
^ this.
^This, to piero's comment.

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Re: Weapon Size Comparison

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 19 Aug 2013 - 21:30

Il Direttore, for cyborg a weapon's size is of no concern due to their superior strength.

With that out of the way, LoC's Guinevere ( http://www.hondosackett.com/Fernando/wiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Guinevere ) is one of the smallest and youngest allowable cyborgs; her tiny hands could not wrap about her weapons' grip and her handler had to devise a way for her to hold the weapon some way which she would fire them. He was successful in doing so and Guinevere was one of the more successful cyborgs in the collection. But the way Guinevere held her weapon would make some people scratch their heads; but it worked for her. And that's the point - the way she held the weapon in her tiny hands allowed her to aim and shoot the weapon in question. Things like recoil and frame sliding was not an issue for her because of her cyborg strength was more than capable of handling it.

And this applies to all the cyborgs!

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Re: Weapon Size Comparison

Post by Alfisti on Tue 20 Aug 2013 - 5:05

@ElfenMagix wrote:Il Direttore, for cyborg a weapon's size is of no concern due to their superior strength.

With that out of the way, LoC's Guinevere ( http://www.hondosackett.com/Fernando/wiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Guinevere ) is one of the smallest and youngest allowable cyborgs; her tiny hands could not wrap about her weapons' grip and her handler had to devise a way for her to hold the weapon some way which she would fire them. He was successful in doing so and Guinevere was one of the more successful cyborgs in the collection. But the way Guinevere held her weapon would make some people scratch their heads; but it worked for her. And that's the point - the way she held the weapon in her tiny hands allowed her to aim and shoot the weapon in question. Things like recoil and frame sliding was not an issue for her because of her cyborg strength was more than capable of handling it.

And this applies to all the cyborgs!
I dunno, I think size, ergonomics and human factors do still bear some thinking about... particularly when dealing with a fandom like GsG's with a higher than average percentage of weapons nerds Razz

Don't get me wrong: if someone wants their small cyborg to have a big gun, or in some situation wants to take a long an anti-tank gun there are, as you've just pointed out, ways to write around it. Even if the fit isn't 100% true, if you can get it close enough the vast majority of people are probably not going to care.

That said: you can't exactly just strap 1.8m of rifle (or whatever that thing is) to the roof racks and drive through the centre of town and expect the reader to believe no-one noticed. Similarly, a large gun is going to be more difficult to conceal on a smaller frame, like that of a child and, unfortunately, no amount of strength is going to help if one's hand is simply too small to get a decent hold, or if and arm is not long enough to reach from stock to trigger. As I said before though: there are ways to write around this stuff, but (especially as these are more physical constraints) I don't think it hurts to keep it in the back of your head either... depending on what sort of story the author wants to write of course.

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Re: Weapon Size Comparison

Post by Piero on Wed 21 Aug 2013 - 22:18

@taerkitty wrote:
@Alfisti wrote:
@Odon wrote:PS. I also thought this thread was about the handlers having a dick-measuring contest...
^ this.
^This, to piero's comment.
Meh, none of them are all that impressive.  They're all pump actions with slow rates of fire and I doubt any of them can meet the 12" minimum penetration standard. Razz

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Re: Weapon Size Comparison

Post by crazyidiot78 on Thu 22 Aug 2013 - 1:47

@Il Direttore wrote:Want to give your cyborg an NTW-20? Consider the following image: 



(Also, lazy erasing is lazy on the NTW-20. Lulz)
Jean- Rico put it down there is no mission that would ever need a rifle of that size.
Rico- Muttering- that's what you think I'll find a mission
Beatrice- grinning as she takes the rifle from Rico (Beatrice wants big boom)
Jean- Beatrice put the rifle back
Bernardo- whispering to Beatrice- don't worry we'll try it out later when the stick in the mud is away
Beatrice- smiling- hehehehehe
Jean- why does that smile not make me feel any better
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Re: Weapon Size Comparison

Post by Piero on Sat 31 Aug 2013 - 1:03

So on a related note, anyone here got some thoughts on the viability of the Glock 19 as a sidearm for a relatively small (Etta sized or slightly smaller) cyborg?  They seem to be relatively thin for a double stack 9mm and I think the trigger is supposed to be short compared to that of a conventional double action pistol like a Beretta or SIG, but on the other hand the grip is rather blocky, which probably widens the overall circumference relative to a more rounded grip of the same width. (Note the time period I'm considering is circa 2007, so no Gen 4 models.)

It might not be as comfortable as a single stack gun, but as long as she can shoot it accurately without too much difficulty I imagine her handler might consider the fifteen round magazine capacity an acceptable trade off.

I'd also been considering the Browning BDM, which actually is super thin (how many double stack 9mms get compared to a M1911 with thin grips?) but I'm not as keen on that one.

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Re: Weapon Size Comparison

Post by John_234 on Sun 1 Sep 2013 - 18:59

Well, it's a G19 so it works... but do you want to use possibly the most common law enforcement handgun in the military and law enforcement worldwide? It's the "just right" sized Glock, big enough to fit most hands, having enough rounds and recoiling moderately.

I'm generally supportive of striker-fired pistols over double/single. Same trigger pull every time. I like that much better than two trigger pulls.

The Glock 19 is very inoffensive ergonomically. You can also buy a "gripforce adapter" to give a 1911-like grip angle. And no, it's actually thinner than most contemporary aluminum-framed handguns, since it doesn't need to have a separate grip section. It's roughly the size of a 1911 Commander pistol, if a teensy bit thicker. Think of it as thinner and lighter than 'Etta's Sig P239, with double the rounds and a lighter trigger pull, and you start to understand why they're so popular.

Spoiler:


Skip to 1:18 ish in the vid.

That's a "full-size" Glock 17 with a 17 round mag, full size frame and slide. It's 4.48'' barrel is shorter than a 5'' 1911 barrel, but you'll notice even the G17 is not a particularly large handgun for it's capacity. The G19 is that, but even moreso. It can disappear into the right wardrobes, and if not that, the G26 can, being similar in size to a small snub-nose revolver. There's also the Glock 36, a single-stack .45 compact, if your story allows for that caliber.

The BHP family is great, but they're big handguns. I cannot imagine a teenager concealing one easily.
Spoiler:
See, G19 in the top right doesn't exactly have a small grip, but the BHP is larger than that. And that's the part of the gun that snags clothing. The nice thing about Glocks is you can actually chop down the plastic frame to be shorter and easier to conceal. Meaning you can have crazy stuff like:
Spoiler:

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Re: Weapon Size Comparison

Post by Piero on Mon 2 Sep 2013 - 2:43

@John_234 wrote:Well, it's a G19 so it works... but do you want to use possibly the most common law enforcement handgun in the military and law enforcement worldwide? It's the "just right" sized Glock, big enough to fit most hands, having enough rounds and recoiling moderately.
The G19 is a very widely used handgun, but so are a lot of the weapons my characters carry.  Widely used guns are usually widely for a reason. Wink 

Though comparing the G19 and the P239 based on specs can be deceiving -the published width for the G19 is for it's slide, while the published width for the P239 likely takes the extra width of its decocking lever into account.  Discounting control surfaces the P239 is supposedly the slimmer gun, and its more rounded too.  On the other hand the G19 is substantially lighter.

Mainly I'm just trying to figure out whether the G19 is something a small handed cyborg could handle without too much trouble or whether she'd better stick to single stack in order to get decent ergonomics.

There are some interesting custom glocks, even ones where people have reshaped the grips, but I think for this character I'll stick to pretty stock factory models like the G19 and G26.

As for the Browning BDM... it is a full size gun but it's not a a modified BHP.  The grip is substantially different, and reportedly only about 26mm (about one inch) in width.  It is super slim.  Been out of production for years though.

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Re: Weapon Size Comparison

Post by John_234 on Mon 2 Sep 2013 - 18:32

@Piero wrote:
@John_234 wrote:Well, it's a G19 so it works... but do you want to use possibly the most common law enforcement handgun in the military and law enforcement worldwide? It's the "just right" sized Glock, big enough to fit most hands, having enough rounds and recoiling moderately.
The G19 is a very widely used handgun, but so are a lot of the weapons my characters carry.  Widely used guns are usually widely for a reason. Wink 

Though comparing the G19 and the P239 based on specs can be deceiving -the published width for the G19 is for it's slide, while the published width for the P239 likely takes the extra width of its decocking lever into account.  Discounting control surfaces the P239 is supposedly the slimmer gun, and its more rounded too.  On the other hand the G19 is substantially lighter.

Mainly I'm just trying to figure out whether the G19 is something a small handed cyborg could handle without too much trouble or whether she'd better stick to single stack in order to get decent ergonomics.

There are some interesting custom glocks, even ones where people have reshaped the grips, but I think for this character I'll stick to pretty stock factory models like the G19 and G26.

As for the Browning BDM... it is a full size gun but it's not a a modified BHP.  The grip is substantially different, and reportedly only about 26mm (about one inch) in width.  It is super slim.  Been out of production for years though.
I try to (or say I try to) use common guns for that deniability factor, though I still slip up every now and then with H&K USPs in the modern day or high-end 1911s. But it's hard to go wrong with a Glock.

They're not actually that different in size. Part of the reason the P239 is not much of a popular carry gun these days. I would contend 99% of shooters can fire a Glock effectively, the question is if they are comfortable with the grip angle for the most part. The reason Glocks are so popular for self defense is that most people aren't super picky about ergonomics for a weapon in a self-defense role.

And fair enough about the BDM, but the Glock 9mm frame is 30mms wide. It's not as large as it looks. 5mm can definitely make an ergonomic difference, but as far as how well the weapon can be concealed, what's probably a slightly more relevant factor is how tall the grip is, for the bottom corners of it will be the parts that snag the cover garment.


No cover garment worn over in this picture, but you can see how this 1911's grip could snag or print if you bend over. That factor, grip size and length is mostly why I cannot see a BHP-sized BDM or a 1911 being too practical for an adolescent's frame. Or even a G19 or Sig on a thinner person with tighter-fitting clothing.

At which point stuff like the Ruger LC9, Kahr PM9, snubbies and such start becoming more viable.


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Re: Weapon Size Comparison

Post by Piero on Mon 2 Sep 2013 - 20:39

@John_234 wrote:
@Piero wrote:
@John_234 wrote:Well, it's a G19 so it works... but do you want to use possibly the most common law enforcement handgun in the military and law enforcement worldwide? It's the "just right" sized Glock, big enough to fit most hands, having enough rounds and recoiling moderately.
The G19 is a very widely used handgun, but so are a lot of the weapons my characters carry.  Widely used guns are usually widely for a reason. Wink 

Though comparing the G19 and the P239 based on specs can be deceiving -the published width for the G19 is for it's slide, while the published width for the P239 likely takes the extra width of its decocking lever into account.  Discounting control surfaces the P239 is supposedly the slimmer gun, and its more rounded too.  On the other hand the G19 is substantially lighter.

Mainly I'm just trying to figure out whether the G19 is something a small handed cyborg could handle without too much trouble or whether she'd better stick to single stack in order to get decent ergonomics.

There are some interesting custom glocks, even ones where people have reshaped the grips, but I think for this character I'll stick to pretty stock factory models like the G19 and G26.

As for the Browning BDM... it is a full size gun but it's not a a modified BHP.  The grip is substantially different, and reportedly only about 26mm (about one inch) in width.  It is super slim.  Been out of production for years though.
I try to (or say I try to) use common guns for that deniability factor, though I still slip up every now and then with H&K USPs in the modern day or high-end 1911s. But it's hard to go wrong with a Glock.

They're not actually that different in size. Part of the reason the P239 is not much of a popular carry gun these days. I would contend 99% of shooters can fire a Glock effectively, the question is if they are comfortable with the grip angle for the most part. The reason Glocks are so popular for self defense is that most people aren't super picky about ergonomics for a weapon in a self-defense role.

And fair enough about the BDM, but the Glock 9mm frame is 30mms wide. It's not as large as it looks. 5mm can definitely make an ergonomic difference, but as far as how well the weapon can be concealed, what's probably a slightly more relevant factor is how tall the grip is, for the bottom corners of it will be the parts that snag the cover garment.

USPs aren't as common as Glocks, but they hardly strike me as all that rare either.  Aren't HKs in general pretty widely proliferated?

Isn't that P239 wearing a hogue grip rather than the standard ones?  I can't speak from first hand experience, but according to the account of one shooter the P239 is about a 1/4 inch thinner than a G19 for most of its length and is more rounded, which apparently makes a noticeable difference.  Of course the trade off is a heavier gun with less capacity (though its magazines are also easier to conceal).

At this point I wasn't thinking of the G19 and BDM so much in terms of their concealability, but more in terms of whether a small cyborg with small hands could comfortably and efficiently operate them.  I figure Rosetta's handler will dress her around what she carries or have her carry in a shoulder bag or something.  (Now Sabina on the other hand is another matter.  I went with a single stack for her because she tends to wear a t-shirt and jeans, not because she can't handle operating a double stack.)

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Re: Weapon Size Comparison

Post by John_234 on Mon 2 Sep 2013 - 21:41

@Piero wrote:
@John_234 wrote:
@Piero wrote:
@John_234 wrote:Well, it's a G19 so it works... but do you want to use possibly the most common law enforcement handgun in the military and law enforcement worldwide? It's the "just right" sized Glock, big enough to fit most hands, having enough rounds and recoiling moderately.
The G19 is a very widely used handgun, but so are a lot of the weapons my characters carry.  Widely used guns are usually widely for a reason. Wink 

Though comparing the G19 and the P239 based on specs can be deceiving -the published width for the G19 is for it's slide, while the published width for the P239 likely takes the extra width of its decocking lever into account.  Discounting control surfaces the P239 is supposedly the slimmer gun, and its more rounded too.  On the other hand the G19 is substantially lighter.

Mainly I'm just trying to figure out whether the G19 is something a small handed cyborg could handle without too much trouble or whether she'd better stick to single stack in order to get decent ergonomics.

There are some interesting custom glocks, even ones where people have reshaped the grips, but I think for this character I'll stick to pretty stock factory models like the G19 and G26.

As for the Browning BDM... it is a full size gun but it's not a a modified BHP.  The grip is substantially different, and reportedly only about 26mm (about one inch) in width.  It is super slim.  Been out of production for years though.
I try to (or say I try to) use common guns for that deniability factor, though I still slip up every now and then with H&K USPs in the modern day or high-end 1911s. But it's hard to go wrong with a Glock.

They're not actually that different in size. Part of the reason the P239 is not much of a popular carry gun these days. I would contend 99% of shooters can fire a Glock effectively, the question is if they are comfortable with the grip angle for the most part. The reason Glocks are so popular for self defense is that most people aren't super picky about ergonomics for a weapon in a self-defense role.

And fair enough about the BDM, but the Glock 9mm frame is 30mms wide. It's not as large as it looks. 5mm can definitely make an ergonomic difference, but as far as how well the weapon can be concealed, what's probably a slightly more relevant factor is how tall the grip is, for the bottom corners of it will be the parts that snag the cover garment.

USPs aren't as common as Glocks, but they hardly strike me as all that rare either.  Aren't HKs in general pretty widely proliferated?

Isn't that P239 wearing a hogue grip rather than the standard ones?  I can't speak from first hand experience, but according to the account of one shooter the P239 is about a 1/4 inch thinner than a G19 for most of its length and is more rounded, which apparently makes a noticeable difference.  Of course the trade off is a heavier gun with less capacity (though its magazines are also easier to conceal).

At this point I wasn't thinking of the G19 and BDM so much in terms of their concealability, but more in terms of whether a small cyborg with small hands could comfortably and efficiently operate them.  I figure Rosetta's handler will dress her around what she carries or have her carry in a shoulder bag or something.  (Now Sabina on the other hand is another matter.  I went with a single stack for her because she tends to wear a t-shirt and jeans, not because she can't handle operating a double stack.)
Well, slightly less common, higher dollar gun. Use it in a couple jobs, and you're going to have a lot more questions than a Glock IMO.

The small details do make a bit of a difference and a nice smooth Sig will feel nicer to carry, but for an adolescent either gun is going to be fairly large so I tend to revert to the striker-fired double stack for it's firepower for given size and bulk.

Neither G19 or BDM should be too difficult to fire, but I've never sized a handgun for an adolescent personally. That said, even with purse carry I probably wouldn't go for a full-sized handgun. Faster draw with a shorter slide, less odd weight and bulk, etc.

Also, I don't think a single stack is necessarily the answer to CCW. Like I said, grip length and contours have a big factor in concealment. A 12+1 Glock 26 is going to be shorter and easier to hide than a 9+1 Sig P239 generally. Even moreso if you use the ten shot mags.

Personally, I don't find a double stack mag hard to conceal even if thicker than a single-stack mag (which is offset by the need to carry more of them.) So while single stacks are nice, they're not necessarily better than double-stacked guns for CCW, especially with modern polymer designs.

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