"Senior" Cyborgs

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"Senior" Cyborgs

Post by Alfisti on Mon 24 Feb 2014 - 5:44

Wasn't certain where to put this, but since most of what I'm referencing is fanon, here seems good...

Anyway, I know the term "senior cyborg" is one that tends to get thrown around a lot in fanon, I certainly know I use it in my own fiction, so I was curious to see what everyone's take was on the term, particularly within their own writing.

For my own part (and yes, there is a certain amount of self assessment going on here), I don't see there being any such official designation as a "senior" cyborg (note: distinct from senior fratello or senior handler), but that some girls tend to get referred to as "senior" as a matter of course. That might just be an offshoot of my own writing though, as I find I tend to naturally apply "senior" to some girls as it just seems to fit and be the correct manner in which to describe them. Generally, it seems to get applied to those that probably hold a certain amount of social sway in the dorm, and that the handlers/staff will naturally go to should they need messages passed on or the herd rounded up reliably etc, but can't be bothered doing so themselves... and yes, both need to be applicable.

I also seem to write a distinction between the senior cyborg (applied to Triela, unsurprisingly), and a senior cyborg, being as described above. In my own written universe, the latter tends to bring to mind Kara, Rachel, and possibly Petra... all of whom I imagine staff going to for Gen 02 business, though it would probably be Triela for the Gen 01s. I know we've seen Rico run errands as well, but she's (to me at least) never been thought of "senior", despite her handler's position. Honestly, who is a "senior" cyborg probably varies a bit depending on who you ask as well, though I picture there being at least reasonable, if unofficial and unspoken, consensus.

In my head at least, Monty also gets a "senior" descriptor, though for slightly different reasons to the rest. She doesn't really quite inhabit the same world a the other cyborgs, but I also can't really think of her as anything else.  sweat 

Anyway, that's sort of the basics how "senior cyborg" seems to fit in my headspace (and there's probably a lot of stuff I've left out if I really thought and tried to pick it apart)... curious to know others' takes.

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Re: "Senior" Cyborgs

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 24 Feb 2014 - 17:46

Both Angie and Triela were created one after the other, making them the oldest cyborgs and the most senior cyborgs of the lot. But with Angie's constant break downs and being in the med ward all the time, Triela gets the most field experience. Rewriting a cyborg make her forget things so she/he becomes unreliable after a while, and that tends to knock them of the seniority list. The only exception to this is Claes, as she has had so many rewrites, its not even funny. But everybody goes to Claes

For a newer cyborg who is looking for advice from an older member, would go to Triela because he has the most experience. The Manga shows that Henrietta and Rico went to Triela for various subjects on at least two different occasions. Strangely, Triela went to Angie.

In fanfiction, Boomer's Alpha, Tee/Tea and my Francesca are the oldest sets and most 'senior' of the three cyborgs, since Alpha has not had a breakdown or a rewrite, so everyone in fanfiction goes to him. My Rachel and Danjo's Brittany tend to go for each other, neither of them had a single rewrite. But my Francesca has had 1 and everyone fears her to the extent of 'is she going to blow up on us?" But Francesca's safe as far as unreliability is concerned, she has learned a lot over the years.

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Re: "Senior" Cyborgs

Post by Alfisti on Tue 25 Feb 2014 - 3:07

I've got to admit age/"time in the organisation" probably doesn't factor into my own thinking so much regarding who ends being thought of as "senior". It probably plays some part, time brings experience after all, but by the same token, I've seen sites where, had you put someone fresh into the site-office and told them to point out who the "senior" person there was, just based on how everyone behaved, they would point to one of the site engineers rather than the construction manager or project manager. Since the cyborgs, at least in my take on the SWA, don't have that defined hierarchy, I figure the "senior" label just gets added naturally as a matter of course to whomever it is everyone is pointing at.

As to Alpha and Francesca... to be honest I've still not entirely worked out how, or even if, they fit into my own take on the GsG universe, though Tea has seemingly taken on the role solidly of being Lorenzo's steward rather than cyborg (so far at least). People's mileage, of course, may vary.


Last edited by Alfisti on Tue 25 Feb 2014 - 3:38; edited 2 times in total

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Re: "Senior" Cyborgs

Post by taerKitty on Tue 25 Feb 2014 - 3:29

For me senior implies competence, not merely time-at-position.  I say this because I am considered a senior engineer at my job, but after this reorg, I don't feel I am all that familiar with my responsibilities, and certainly nit enough to wear the mantle if being called 'senior'.

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Re: "Senior" Cyborgs

Post by Thescarredman on Tue 25 Feb 2014 - 3:57

In GsG, determining seniority is complicated by the fact that the earlier models look younger than the later ones, and are generally considered less stable. I tend to write the Gen 2s as mostly socially isolated from the Gen 1's, as they are separated physically in the dorms - with the exceptions of Petra and Triela. Claes and Monique, in my view, are both outside the social rules because of their unique roles.
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Re: "Senior" Cyborgs

Post by Alfisti on Tue 25 Feb 2014 - 4:57

Agreed. I think there is some cross-pollination of influence between the generations, but generally I picture them as mostly keeping to themselves... though I certainly don't think it would be unusual for a staff member to send one to carry a message to the other if they happened to be passing etc.

That said, a gen 02 may feel awkward deferring to a gen 01 simply because, as you noted, of the perceived age difference.

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Re: "Senior" Cyborgs

Post by Odon on Wed 26 Feb 2014 - 13:32

@Alfisti wrote:Agreed. I think there is some cross-pollination of influence between the generations, but generally I picture them as mostly keeping to themselves... though I certainly don't think it would be unusual for a staff member to send one to carry a message to the other if they happened to be passing etc.

That said, a gen 02 may feel awkward deferring to a gen 01 simply because, as you noted, of the perceived age difference.

And not just age but also conditioning.  From the gen 02 perspective, a gen 01's classical education is untrendy and their obsession with their handler rather creepy.  Might be worthwhile to explore this difference in our stories.

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Re: "Senior" Cyborgs

Post by boomer_gonz on Wed 26 Feb 2014 - 15:14

I guess the term 'senior' can be subjective to whatever is the case.

For example as Elfen stated, if we're going to apply that to cyborg duration, then Angelica and then Triela would hold that title in canon and thus Alpha and Francesca in fanon(or at least according to the CC Fanon Timeline...gotta update that thing...).

However on an assignment, whoever is the lead handler/agent; the cyborg ward of that handler/agent would be the 'Senior' cyborg in charge.

As I said subjective.

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Re: "Senior" Cyborgs

Post by Officer_Charon on Wed 26 Feb 2014 - 15:54

I consider it in the same context as "senior" officers on a watch.

When I left my previous watch, I was a "senior" officer, despite only having 4 years on the department. It's all contextual...

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Re: "Senior" Cyborgs

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 26 Feb 2014 - 17:07

I'm inclined to go with Alfisti's idea, myself - the cyborg(s) that other cyborgs and handlers tend to seek out.

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Re: "Senior" Cyborgs

Post by Officer_Charon on Wed 26 Feb 2014 - 17:46

Same example still stands: junior officers were coming to me for advice, because (for whatever reason) they trusted me over the three other officers who were senior to me... Don't know why that was, but it might have had something to do with the fact that I don't look as though I'll have a heart attack in a foot chase. *grins*

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Re: "Senior" Cyborgs

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 26 Feb 2014 - 17:48

@boomer_gonz wrote:I guess the term 'senior' can be subjective to whatever is the case.

For example as Elfen stated, if we're going to apply that to cyborg duration, then Angelica and then Triela would hold that title in canon and thus Alpha and Francesca in fanon(or at least according to the CC Fanon Timeline...gotta update that thing...).

However on an assignment, whoever is the lead handler/agent; the cyborg ward of that handler/agent would be the 'Senior' cyborg in charge.

As I said subjective.
As is, here on this version of Fanfiction, Alpha, Francesca and Tee/Tea are the oldest. Which I got to laugh as to how that came about as an accident. They are the concept taken to fact, Prototypes put into market before the government could put their restrictions on them...

God no- you suggesting that the Pre-SWA Section 1 Cyborgs be the oldest? None of those Advanced Prosthesis Wearing Teeth Grinding War Hero Jar Heads survived their first years in that role... unless you take my Universe's Jean Croche as to being the last of those cyborgs... LMAO!!! You can't be Front End Tackle to a Passenger Train and expect to survive! But that was their mentality!

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Re: "Senior" Cyborgs

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 26 Feb 2014 - 17:53

@Alfisti wrote:I've got to admit age/"time in the organisation" probably doesn't factor into my own thinking so much regarding who ends being thought of as "senior". It probably plays some part, time brings experience after all, but by the same token, I've seen sites where, had you put someone fresh into the site-office and told them to point out who the "senior" person there was, just based on how everyone behaved, they would point to one of the site engineers rather than the construction manager or project manager. Since the cyborgs, at least in my take on the SWA, don't have that defined hierarchy, I figure the "senior" label just gets added naturally as a matter of course to whomever it is everyone is pointing at.

As to Alpha and Francesca... to be honest I've still not entirely worked out how, or even if, they fit into my own take on the GsG universe, though Tea has seemingly taken on the role solidly of being Lorenzo's steward rather than cyborg (so far at least). People's mileage, of course, may vary.
As information operatives working independent but with the SWA, their roles can fit anywhere you need them to be, Alfisti. Jethro needs a suit case with 2mil Euro in  it, he can always find it in front of the third waiting bench at Air Italia's Terminal, next to a certain red hair woman... All Jethro needs to do is call a certain CIA Operative...

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Re: "Senior" Cyborgs

Post by Alfisti on Thu 27 Feb 2014 - 7:58

@boomer_gonz wrote:However on an assignment, whoever is the lead handler/agent; the cyborg ward of that handler/agent would be the 'Senior' cyborg in charge.
Oh definitely. I think, operationally, handler seniority/position would take precedence. After all, the SWA has a more solid read and means by which to judge the handlers' capabilities as professionals, and someone needs to ultimately direct a mission. To me at least, in that particular case though, the term would probably be more "senior fratello", than directly referencing the cyborg as an individual.

I guess, when I was writing the original question, the thought was more along the lines of who the SWA staff might look to in the dorm as a "responsible party" for the general day-to-day.


@Kiskaloo wrote:I'm inclined to go with Alfisti's idea, myself - the cyborg(s) that other cyborgs and handlers tend to seek out.
I'll admit I quite like that route. To me at least it just feels more organic in its execution, and probably fits in with my own take on the SWA as still very much feeling its way with how to best manage the cyborgs, giving a bit of extra leash and standing back to see what works/who stands out, rather than attempting to impinge a pre-set hierarchy on them. It's a bit tighter at the staff end of town but, even there, once you get below about Jean, things in terms of structure seem to be quite loose and "find your own way, let the leaders emerge".

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Re: "Senior" Cyborgs

Post by Professor Voodoo on Thu 13 Mar 2014 - 20:12

Before I entered the creative desert I'm currently stuck in this was a topic I wanted to tackle.

I see the title of Senior Cyborg as something which starts very unofficially and develops into a formal position with time.  The SC would serve in the same capacity as a First Sergeant in a military unit...acting as a liaison between Command and the troops.  She would be welcome at some staff meetings (not all), where she would be allowed to have input on discussions, but no actual vote.

Ceremonially, Triela's bayonet would be the token of office.  When a Senior Cyborg dies, either in combat or peacefully of old age, the bayonet passes to the next in line.  By this time it's just an heirloom of the cyborg community; nobody would risk taking it out into the field.  Handlers would have little or nothing to do with this...it's a strictly cyborg tradition.

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Re: "Senior" Cyborgs

Post by Thescarredman on Fri 14 Mar 2014 - 3:26

Sounds like you're imagining a cyborg-laden organization that continues long after the first- and second-gens are retired to their ship.
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Re: "Senior" Cyborgs

Post by Alfisti on Fri 14 Mar 2014 - 7:30

@Thescarredman wrote:Sounds like you're imagining a cyborg-laden organization that continues long after the first- and second-gens are retired to their ship.
Well, I guess when you can get through three generations of incumbents in less than a decade, traditions develop quite fast.  Incoming!

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Re: "Senior" Cyborgs

Post by Il Direttore on Fri 14 Mar 2014 - 13:18

Actually, on that note, is the lifespan of a Gen1 listed as OPERATIONAL lifespan or TOTAL lifespan? If the latter, that could imply that a Gen1 would actually be reaching the end of their operational capability by, say, the end of their third year. In this case, having a lot of units passing through the operating theater doors makes sense, which would allow for such traditions to become a thing.

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Re: "Senior" Cyborgs

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 14 Mar 2014 - 14:03

@Il Direttore wrote:Actually, on that note, is the lifespan of a Gen1 listed as OPERATIONAL lifespan or TOTAL lifespan?

They seem to be interrelated in that once a cyborg no longer is "mission capable" they soon die.

Angelica and Petrushka both pass after about three years of being a cyborg, Sylvia and Triela are both closing in on their third years when they note they can no longer remember events and Claes is in her third year when she starts to fail in the Epilogue.

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Re: "Senior" Cyborgs

Post by Alfisti on Fri 14 Mar 2014 - 18:17

@Kiskaloo wrote:They seem to be interrelated in that once a cyborg no longer is "mission capable" they soon die.

Angelica and Petrushka both pass after about three years of being a cyborg, Sylvia and Triela are both closing in on their third years when they note they can no longer remember events and Claes is in her third year when she starts to fail in the Epilogue.
That's about the impression I got: there's no extended period of being allowed to wander peacefully around in the top paddock before being sent to the glue factory. From memory the Gen02s were supposed to last around the 6-7 year mark, Petra suffered complications left over from her bone cancer.

To be honest, I was just making a dumb comment for giggles, and "three in a decade" flowed off the tongue easy.

That said, even if the Gen02s last longer, and lived the full length of their conditioning-allocated time, I imagine that in the scenario Voodoo outlined, a cyborg would still need to be alive and functional in order to fore fill the bayonet-carrying role, so the cycling through faster would be quite likely.

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Re: "Senior" Cyborgs

Post by Thescarredman on Fri 14 Mar 2014 - 19:01

To be honest, I was just making a dumb comment for giggles, and "three in a decade" flowed off the tongue easy.

I thought you were talking about the run of the manga.
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Re: "Senior" Cyborgs

Post by PolosElite23 on Thu 12 Jun 2014 - 23:56

For my part, I'm starting to develop the idea of "Senior Cyborg" as more of a mission specific term. Basically Cyborg A has done X amount of missions with X amount of hours. Cyborg B has X missions and X hours.  Cyborg A has more missions and hours then Cyborg B, so Cyborg A is the senior cyborg on a mission.

I use it as a chain of command sort of thing.

Mission chain of command:

Any SWA director/commander [Jean]
Handlers
SWA staff/agents
Senior Cyborg
Cyborg

So say in the heat of battle, Triela and, say, Soni were cut off. Triela would take lead automatically, being the more experienced and senior. Even if not by age. With that, there is still a directing force.

If Petra, Soni, and Fleccia were on a mission, Petra would be the Senior Cyborg and would be able to direct the other two.

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Re: "Senior" Cyborgs

Post by Alfisti on Fri 13 Jun 2014 - 7:18

@PolosElite23 wrote:For my part, I'm starting to develop the idea of "Senior Cyborg" as more of a mission specific term. Basically Cyborg A has done X amount of missions with X amount of hours. Cyborg B has X missions and X hours.  Cyborg A has more missions and hours then Cyborg B, so Cyborg A is the senior cyborg on a mission.
So, what happens if Cyborg A in this particular scenario is less competent/not a good leader/not suited to the particular situation at hand/just a moron or, for that matter, Cyborg B just happens to be better at any of the above than Cyborg A? That would be my first question. How rigid is the structure: is there room in the structure for Cyborg B to take the lead if they're going to be better at it? Is it a set in stone thing? Or do opinions vary... leading to enjoyable story-borne shenanigans as things go awry or people argue? Nothing like having a leader clinging onto power through seniority alone while more competent underlings try go clue-bat them into making better decisions, or just have to watch everything fall apart.

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Re: "Senior" Cyborgs

Post by PolosElite23 on Fri 13 Jun 2014 - 10:25

@Alfisti wrote:
@PolosElite23 wrote:For my part, I'm starting to develop the idea of "Senior Cyborg" as more of a mission specific term. Basically Cyborg A has done X amount of missions with X amount of hours. Cyborg B has X missions and X hours.  Cyborg A has more missions and hours then Cyborg B, so Cyborg A is the senior cyborg on a mission.
So, what happens if Cyborg A in this particular scenario is less competent/not a good leader/not suited to the particular situation at hand/just a moron or, for that matter, Cyborg B just happens to be better at any of the above than Cyborg A? That would be my first question. How rigid is the structure: is there room in the structure for Cyborg B to take the lead if they're going to be better at it? Is it a set in stone thing? Or do opinions vary... leading to enjoyable story-borne shenanigans as things go awry or people argue? Nothing like having a leader clinging onto power through seniority alone while more competent underlings try go clue-bat them into making better decisions, or just have to watch everything fall apart.
Valid point, again hence "develop".

I suppose the handlers would be the ones to know that Cyborg A is less qualified to lead Cyborg B. Say Cyborg A is Rico and Cyborg B is Monty. They're on an intel mission, so Monty would take lead because she is more qualified even though Rico may have more mission experience, she's not as qualified. I also suppose the Handlers may designate another cyborg the "Senior Cyborg". I think

I have a short story sitting on my drive that I effectively incapacitate all Handlers and Agents. So, naturally, you have "Senior Cyborgs" leading the others in a rough defense of their handlers. For this I have Senior Handler on mission, order his cyborg to get the others into a defensive area, hence she is now the "Senior Cyborg" and she goes about directing the others in a rough defense without imput from here handler. Despite the fact she has less mission experience, the handler trusts the training of his cyborg to get the others into a position to defend those who are injured and incapacitated.

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In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.
----
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate,
I am the captain of my soul.

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Re: "Senior" Cyborgs

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 13 Jun 2014 - 10:34

@PolosElite23 wrote:I have a short story sitting on my drive that I effectively incapacitate all Handlers and Agents. So, naturally, you have "Senior Cyborgs" leading the others in a rough defense of their handlers. For this I have Senior Handler on mission, order his cyborg to get the others into a defensive area, hence she is now the "Senior Cyborg" and she goes about directing the others in a rough defense without imput from here handler. Despite the fact she has less mission experience, the handler trusts the training of his cyborg to get the others into a position to defend those who are injured and incapacitated.

This sounds more like Alfisti's reasoning - a "senior" cyborg being one whom the handlers have an extra level of trust in, regardless of their activation date.

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Re: "Senior" Cyborgs

Post by PolosElite23 on Fri 13 Jun 2014 - 10:37

@Kiskaloo wrote:
@PolosElite23 wrote:I have a short story sitting on my drive that I effectively incapacitate all Handlers and Agents. So, naturally, you have "Senior Cyborgs" leading the others in a rough defense of their handlers. For this I have Senior Handler on mission, order his cyborg to get the others into a defensive area, hence she is now the "Senior Cyborg" and she goes about directing the others in a rough defense without imput from here handler. Despite the fact she has less mission experience, the handler trusts the training of his cyborg to get the others into a position to defend those who are injured and incapacitated.

This sounds more like Alfisti's reasoning - a "senior" cyborg being one whom the handlers have an extra level of trust in, regardless of their activation date.
sweat I suppose, but there's also the fact that said handler trained said cyborg in small unit tactics. Which given the selection of cyborgs I used in the story, made her an ideal choice.

Its hard to explain without giving story tidbits away...which I don't want to do...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.
----
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate,
I am the captain of my soul.

-Stanzas 2+4 of Invictus by William Earnest Henley
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Re: "Senior" Cyborgs

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 13 Jun 2014 - 10:53

That is fair.

And yes, choosing a "senior" cyborg for a mission based on said cyborg's applicable skills to the mission makes sense.

But both are different from your original treatise, which appears to base a cyborg's seniority on "time in grade", regardless of their skills or performance.

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Re: "Senior" Cyborgs

Post by Alfisti on Fri 13 Jun 2014 - 21:59

@PolosElite23 wrote:
@Kiskaloo wrote:
This sounds more like Alfisti's reasoning - a "senior" cyborg being one whom the handlers have an extra level of trust in, regardless of their activation date.
sweat I suppose, but there's also the fact that said handler trained said cyborg in small unit tactics. Which given the selection of cyborgs I used in the story, made her an ideal choice.

Its hard to explain without giving story tidbits away...which I don't want to do...
Look out, you'll turn into ID: not giving all the information, then wondering why the answers you get back don't take into account things you kept in your head.  Incoming! 


I think the SWA of my own stories tends to be a less structured, but more stringent/paranoid (if that makes sense) organisation than most. So having "senior cyborg" not being something officially bestowed upon a girl works there. It's just something that happens naturally, but if a new handler were to be told "get one of the senior girls to do it", he would not find names for who he was supposed to be finding in a book or database. That said though, if you are creating a more organisationally structured Agency, then having a more set rank/leadership structure amongst the girls probably makes sense as well.

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Re: "Senior" Cyborgs

Post by Thescarredman on Sat 14 Jun 2014 - 13:41

I see 'senior' status as being one thing among the cyborgs, and another to the handlers. The girls' natural tendency to submit to authority would have them deferring to a cyborg with time in place and/or demonstrated competence. Handlers and staffers might have different criteria for selecting a given cyborg for a position of leadership or responsibility: skillset/mission parameter matchup, handler position in the TO, ability to follow orders, initiative (within limits), etc. Petra assumed a leadership role on a joint mission with Claes, her senior, because she had the required experience in deception. In her joint mission with Triela bodyguarding Roberta Guelfi, her skills at disguise and deception were of secondary importance compared to Triela's CQB expertise.
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