Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

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Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing conditions.

Post by Guest on Wed 20 Feb 2008 - 2:19

This seemed the most suitable place for this discussion.

The concept came up that perhaps Elsa was a bit messed up before conditioning, and this could not be wholly overwritten by the conditioning process.

Thing is, this is stuff I know a little bit about from researching as a hobby, so this discussion might wind up a bit technical.

What I am basing that on is: Perry, B.D. (2001b). The neurodevelopmental impact of violence in childhood.
http://www.childtrauma.org/ctamaterials/vio_child.asp

Along with
http://www.childtrauma.org/CTAMATERIALS/neuros~1.asp
http://www.childtrauma.org/CTAMATERIALS/Attach_ca.asp

I warn you though, these are long reads and highly technical in places, but if you ever wanted to fully explore the conditioning and it's processes, you'll want to read them and try to grasp the core concepts anyway.

Chemical conditioning can only do so much if trauma and it's reactions are present so deep it's buried in muscle and motor memory - case in point, you could "forget" your name, but you could not "forget" how to ride a bicycle without some seriously drastic measures.

I am of the opinion that Elsa had a pre-existing bonding/attachment disorder due to neglect and developed her complete fixation on her handler as a result of that combined with the conditioning used to enforce that attachment.

Thoughts ?

-F

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by Guest on Wed 20 Feb 2008 - 3:06

I am not trying to be funny or anything, but you losted me some where towards the end.

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 20 Feb 2008 - 3:50

Fremdfirma wrote:I am of the opinion that Elsa had a pre-existing bonding/attachment disorder due to neglect and developed her complete fixation on her handler as a result of that combined with the conditioning used to enforce that attachment.

This is an excellent observation, F, with which I entirely agree.

Elsa's obsession with Lauro, I feel, developed out of a desperate need on her part to bond - possibly born out of a previous rejection she suffered, likely on the part of whoever her parents or guardians may have been. Such an experience would have left her desperate for a loving parent and the affection that, I feel, she doubtlessly needed and deserved - who knows how the conditioning may have worsened this hunger. But after being rejected a second time, everything would have come crashing down around her, and the resulting mental anguish would have over-ridden even Elsa's conditioning - hence her snapping, killing Lauro and committing suicide.

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by West Nile on Wed 20 Feb 2008 - 4:04

may be the answer to the whole Elsa de Sica mystery, Elsa had a old handler,he had the family name which was de Sica and gave it to Elsa since he loved her, the SWA killed him-off and erased Elsa's memory, Elsa still remembers that she was loved, also remembers that somone gave her the name Elsa de Sica in the park but turns out it was not Lauro, Lauro is too much of an ass to pass his own name to her so it can't be him, and who for god sake forgets that he first named his cyborg in a park. so that is the history of Elsa West Nile style. possible?

answers the questions of:
why, de Sica?
why, doesn't Lauro know shit about Elsa?
why, Elsa want to be loved?


Last edited by West Nile on Wed 20 Feb 2008 - 4:06; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 20 Feb 2008 - 4:06

Not bad, Nile, but it violates canon a little bit. The official Gunslinger Girl site states that Elsa was the new girl at the time of her appearance - that wouldn't have allowed for her having a previous handler.

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by West Nile on Wed 20 Feb 2008 - 4:08

maybe they consider "reinstating her back on the field" as considering her as a new girl. my theory could have happned shortly after Angie was made, then Elsa was put on the shelf for a while like Claes, then they got her Lauro and was called "the new girl"

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 20 Feb 2008 - 4:12

That's a brilliant rationalization, Nile, and might very well be the plot device for a great fic. Supposing that this theory were true, one has to wonder if Claes might eventually be similarly put back into action...

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by West Nile on Wed 20 Feb 2008 - 4:18

the idea has been abstractly building in my head for a while now, but if you can make a fic out of it before i do, then go ahead, if you do it fast enough you will make it, i am pretty lazy in doing fanfic, it's the whole i need a mood to write thing. let me just summarize what i just put down:

Elsa had a previouse handler, the 2 fell in love, the handler got killed or was killed by the SWA, Elsa tries to kill her self but is stoped by the SWA, they erase her memory and was put on the shelf, then she met Lauro

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 20 Feb 2008 - 4:22

Thing is, such an idea would screw up the continuity of my Gunslinger Girl fanfiction. I'll leave this idea to you or someone else to flesh out.

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by West Nile on Wed 20 Feb 2008 - 4:25

That's impossible, such a story will be reduced to Elsa forgotten memory or some burned up file in the SWA filling section, it can happen or not happen and not affect the welbeing of Elsa

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by Guest on Wed 20 Feb 2008 - 13:35

Another thought, so far each other girls who's backstory we know has had some element of actual parental care, some emotional bonding to begin with...

Henrietta - had a family.
Rico - had a family, and medical staff.
Angelica - had a family.
Claes - had a family.
Triela - assuming she was kidnapped and also had a family, her behavior seems to bear this out.

Elsa is an unknown, no backstory is apparent, so rejection, neglect or abandonment by the primary caregiver seems likely.

Also, with that in mind, and the end result, I would suspect the SWA might be a bit more careful in vetting their potentials in the future due to such pre-existing complications.

I do think Elsa was "Salvageable" mind you, but not by Lauro who seemed to suffer some level of attachment disorder himself, he just didn't connect with other people like most folk do, and seemed detatched even from his co-workers for the most part.

Too bad that Raballo didn't make it - it seems the very character traits that would make a person a good handler, also put them in an untenable moral position within their own conscience, I doubt Jose sleeps well at night.

-F

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 20 Feb 2008 - 16:35

Rico's family practically abandoned her for dead, and she appears to have coped very well with it. That is one tough kid - most children would have crumbled.

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by Danjo3 on Wed 20 Feb 2008 - 17:25

Nachtsider wrote:Not bad, Nile, but it violates canon a little bit. The official Gunslinger Girl site states that Elsa was the new girl at the time of her appearance - that wouldn't have allowed for her having a previous handler.
Elsa also states that is was Lauro who gave her her name. Nothing in canon even hints at another handler.

We also know, as in the case of Claes, it's next to impossible for a girl to bond to a new handler.

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 21 Feb 2008 - 0:26

Danjo3 wrote:
Nachtsider wrote:Not bad, Nile, but it violates canon a little bit. The official Gunslinger Girl site states that Elsa was the new girl at the time of her appearance - that wouldn't have allowed for her having a previous handler.
Elsa also states that is was Lauro who gave her her name. Nothing in canon even hints at another handler.

We also know, as in the case of Claes, it's next to impossible for a girl to bond to a new handler.
It is only stated that it is almost impossible for a cyborg to rebond to another handler.
But the question is why, in what retrospect is the content in? Straight out the box, without recondictioning, I can see where it is difficult. But the doctors seemed to have done something With Claes, and this is her 3rd rewrite that we know of. That last rewrite had Claes going along with any one who is in charge. I use this in my fan fict to the point where Chief Lorenzo gives the order for Claes to pair up with Ferro. If this were done with any other cyborg without a rewrite- as we seen- Triela go off on Jean when he tells Cleas of Rabello's death. This shows that the (type 1) cyborgs are not so willing to follow another handler's or agency orders outside of their own. In the Game- it takes it to the extreme where Pia does everything Ernesto tells her to do, including attack the other handlers/cyborgs.

I can see a cyborg getting wiped to be sent to another handler, or else one day, there will be a lot of dead handlers and a lot of Claes-like cyborgs, and that would be an investment lost for the SWA. But i must add, this process must be difficult to do at best.

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 21 Feb 2008 - 0:35

Nachtsider wrote:Not bad, Nile, but it violates canon a little bit. The official Gunslinger Girl site states that Elsa was the new girl at the time of her appearance - that wouldn't have allowed for her having a previous handler.
Season 1, Episode 3, Raggazo; during the meeting to assassinate the parliment member, it is stated that the "Elsa/Lauro teamis preparing a perp..." Episode 1 & 2 are basically the same show with different POVs. This leaves a long period of time between then and the incident. Also consider that from "snatching" to "cyborgnizing" and "training" can take up to at least 6 months to a year (the body has to heal for one). Not included is the memory wiping (if any) and the mental conditioning, and mental programming of handling weapons...

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by Nachtsider on Thu 21 Feb 2008 - 1:47

For all we know, Episode Three could have taken place prior to Episode One, and Episode One could have occurred after Episode Thirteen - notice how we see Angie in a wheelchair during Episode Two, possibly recovering from the wounds she suffered in Episode Twelve. Apart from a few exceptions, Season One doesn't really tell its story in a linear format.

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by Danjo3 on Thu 21 Feb 2008 - 3:49

ElfenMagix wrote:Straight out the box, without recondictioning, I can see where it is difficult. But the doctors seemed to have done something With Claes, and this is her 3rd rewrite that we know of.
The second time around for Claes was not a complete overhaul. I think it was more along the lines of a minor adjustment. If it had been a complete rewrite, she wouldnt have run from the infirmary looking for Raballo she wouldnt have known who the hell he was. The third time around was of course a different story. It was after that brain-rape the Jean said she was no longer of use, and the mad scientist got custody of her.

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by Nachtsider on Thu 21 Feb 2008 - 3:50

It's quite clear, of course, that the third rewrite on Claes' conditioning still left something to be desired.

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by Danjo3 on Thu 21 Feb 2008 - 3:54

Nachtsider wrote:It's quite clear, of course, that the third rewrite on Claes' conditioning still left something to be desired.
True. You definitely couldnt call it perfect.

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by Guest on Sat 23 Feb 2008 - 2:56

Fremdfirma wrote:The concept came up that perhaps Elsa was a bit messed up before conditioning,

Ah yes. I was writing a story quite some time ago titled "The Orphanage". One of the girls tortured there was supposed to be Elsa. Of course, G.D. Wallez was invovled.

I will make a post as a separate topic concerning my thoughts.

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 23 Feb 2008 - 3:18

The problem with your stories, Colonel, is that you make Wallez involved in everything.

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by West Nile on Sat 23 Feb 2008 - 3:20

alryt nw i just can't help but ask, who is G.D. Wallez? been reading his name in a lot of posts and a lot fics

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 23 Feb 2008 - 3:22

Trust me, Nile - you don't wanna know.

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by West Nile on Sat 23 Feb 2008 - 3:28

But then i would never understand half of the stuff you guys are writing...

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by Probit Return on Sat 23 Feb 2008 - 13:47

From what I take of it, imagine the most psychotic man in all of existance... times 1,000,000. That's Wallez in a nutshell. Oh, and did I mention that he is very rich and has nearly unlimited resources, and I think he had his own country too.

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by LoC978 on Sat 23 Feb 2008 - 13:58

he was rather unreasonably sadistic, for me... the scene where he indirectly tortured Angelica kinda made me sick...
so I went and sic'd Rico on his ass (without permission, for which I apologize)
...never did get a proper why for his psychoses... they're just there, I guess.

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 24 Feb 2008 - 1:13

If gratuitous torture is your thing, then his stories are a must read.

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by Triela on Sun 24 Feb 2008 - 1:29

WOW!!! That was some amazing writing! @_@ I couldn't stop reading it! I'm favoriting it! ^_^

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by Nachtsider on Sun 24 Feb 2008 - 1:57

Which one, Triela?

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by West Nile on Sun 24 Feb 2008 - 4:19

so he is an OC? who's?

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by Nachtsider on Sun 24 Feb 2008 - 4:25

The Colonel's.

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by West Nile on Sun 24 Feb 2008 - 4:27

... that makes sense (remembering "To kill a cyborg")

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by Guest on Mon 25 Feb 2008 - 1:18

G.D. Wallez... is considered by me, the worst character I ever made. I don't mean "worst" as in evil, I mean "worst" as in quality.

To simply say, he was very insane in his tastes for pleasure. He would be an awesome character if I ever came up with a good "why" factor.

But the character care (foundation of characters) built on him was from the reader to the victims, namely the gunslinger girls. You can read and overview of Wallez in my first post here: http://gunslinger-girl.up-with.com/the-armory-f1/my-idea-how-to-kill-a-cyborg-t135-25.htm
You might find a few other posts on him around here somewhere.

But yeah, seeing G.D. Wallez go head-to-head with Rolito was an exciting ordeal.

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 21 Apr 2009 - 22:09

Thread necormancy!!!

*sigh*
Got a Term/Research paper project due before May 10th.
Mine will be "Gunslilnger Girl in the Real World." It will be on conditioning and brainwashing of individuals in both a historical persective and comparision to science fiction of GsG.

I know where to start.

Question- how to make it 12 pages minimum... double spaced @ 12pt New Times Roman font.

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by Guest on Sun 26 Apr 2009 - 9:42

Just something that popped up in my mind. I this belongs here.

I think the conditioning is a group of treatments, including: Trauma Override, Physical Limit Override, Morality Override, Biological Functions Enhancement, Past Memory Suppression, and Loyalty Imprinting. Those terms are probably inaccurate, I made up those anyway.

Trauma Override: Basically, PTSD treatment. Required for continuous field operation and as post-repair/operation treatment. The mind/body gains trauma from previous encounters where it was damaged, this treatment overrides that.

Physical Limit Override: The mind/body knows what an organic body can and cannot do. This must be overriden to allow the cybory body to fucntion to its full potential. Sometimes, the body must perform beyond the limits of the cyborg body such as when protecting its handler. Works with Trauma Override. Explains the need for young minds where the mind has not yet fully imposed the organic physical limits.

Morality Override: Kills sense of remorse, etc.Explains the need for young minds where the mind has not yet fully imposed moral standards and moral standards are not yet complicated.

Biological Functions Enhancement
: They are cyborgs, the organic part must be 'pumped' to keep up with the machine part.

Past Memory Suppression: Just as it sounds like. Makes things less compicated. Works with moraltiy override (kills past sense of morals).

Loyalty Imprinting: Build loyalty to SWA and handler. Works with Trauma Override, Physical Limit Override and Morality Override.

These treatments would have the eventual negative effect of Neuroleptic Malignant Syndrome (as suggested by Six in the Lifespan thread) or something similar and addiction/dependence which results to reduced lifespan.

As a sidenote, this brings me to a theory about Jean's conditioning on Rico.

It is said that Jean maxxed Rico's conditioning. However, Rico looks (comparably) healthy and, uniquely, remembers her past life. This makes me think that Jean maxxed almost all of Rico's conditioning treatments, but to compensate for the inceased stress (and reduced lifespan), skimped on the other treatments. In particular, I think Jean used below the minimum Past Memory Suppression treatment which allowed Rico to remember her past.

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 26 Apr 2009 - 11:38

If there are indeed different types of conditioning that can be individually dosed, then yes, that makes sense.

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by Nachtsider on Sun 26 Apr 2009 - 20:47

That's a very interesting theory that's never been touched on before, graywolf. I like it a lot - it certainly explains why the supposedly heavily-medicated Rico seems quite healthy and remembers her past.

Oh, and by the way - there's no such thing as thread necromancy on this board. No limit to how long a thread can be posted in.

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 26 Apr 2009 - 21:03

I'm 1/4 done with my report, with Brainwashing and Hypnotism defined as possible technqiues for 'conditioning'. Just having troubles with looking up multi-worded techniques.

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by Guest on Mon 27 Apr 2009 - 4:19

Just found another thread "Conditioning/Brainwashing, what exactly are they?" started by Colonel Marksman.

Funny thing, while reading through it reminded me of Jason Bourne.
- Amnesia
- He does not remember his past, but he just knows things (where to find guns, identify plain clothes agents, etc)
- Headaches, anger, aggression, etc
- Lack of remorse
- Lightning reflexes

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Re: Conditioning, Neurodevelopment and previously existing condi

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 27 Apr 2009 - 12:28

I'm using real medical/psycological as the basis for my (now appraoching 18 pages) final report/term paper for my college class, comparing what is is the GsG Universe with what is actually out there. It is Sci Fi vs Sci Fact type of paper, with real case examples for comparison. Your list just only touches on what there is to be found.

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