Cybernetics

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Cybernetics

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 26 Feb 2008 - 3:09

Lots of debate has been generated regarding exactly how artificial the cyborgs are, and whether circuitry, bio-engineering or both play greater or smaller parts in their construction. While we're on the subject, here's page 54 of Volume Nine - pay close attention to the final frame. The components there look pretty darn mechanical/electronic, if you ask me:


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------





There may be no peace for the wicked, but the righteous can damn well get a piece whenever they feel like it.
avatar
Nachtsider
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD

Male

Forum Posts : 5718

Location : Inside your closet. In your head.

Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated

Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus

Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.

Registration date : 2007-09-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by emperor on Tue 26 Feb 2008 - 3:16

Wow!

That arm very close to robot in Terminator 2!!

:15:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://on.fb.me/9tuZOK Facebook Page for Cyborg Central : Gunslinger Girl Forum cheers
avatar
emperor

Male

Forum Posts : 1637

Location : Bangkok,Thailand

Fan of : Henrietta,Black Lagoon,Jormungund

Original Characters : Rosetta,Devil baby

Comments : Be creative,baby!!

Registration date : 2007-09-09
Your character
OC genger:

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 26 Feb 2008 - 3:18

Precisely.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------





There may be no peace for the wicked, but the righteous can damn well get a piece whenever they feel like it.
avatar
Nachtsider
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD

Male

Forum Posts : 5718

Location : Inside your closet. In your head.

Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated

Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus

Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.

Registration date : 2007-09-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by emperor on Tue 26 Feb 2008 - 3:22

Ange already dead in that pic?

:colbert:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://on.fb.me/9tuZOK Facebook Page for Cyborg Central : Gunslinger Girl Forum cheers
avatar
emperor

Male

Forum Posts : 1637

Location : Bangkok,Thailand

Fan of : Henrietta,Black Lagoon,Jormungund

Original Characters : Rosetta,Devil baby

Comments : Be creative,baby!!

Registration date : 2007-09-09
Your character
OC genger:

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 26 Feb 2008 - 3:29

Nope. But from what little I can read in those speech bubbles, Marco is being told that Angie is badly wounded - probably beyond repair.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------





There may be no peace for the wicked, but the righteous can damn well get a piece whenever they feel like it.
avatar
Nachtsider
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD

Male

Forum Posts : 5718

Location : Inside your closet. In your head.

Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated

Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus

Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.

Registration date : 2007-09-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Guest on Tue 26 Feb 2008 - 4:22

Yes, but I'm sure there's still no computer programming-what-not in there. As robotic as it may look, what did you think carbon frame bones would look like? White and well-developed-rounded like real bones?

An interesting find, Nacht, no doubt.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by West Nile on Tue 26 Feb 2008 - 6:37

a similar scene was featured in ep 6 of the new season. when Lorenzo is explaining to the old lady how the girl work ( i think, i don't know japanese) it showed how they can move those body parts even when the skin was off. probably the girl was still unconscious at the time since that would hell hurt if she wasnt. so im assuming a machine triggered the movement there for there is a computer program that is used to allow machines to move the girls.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Photobucket
Just cause I'm dead, doesn't mean I can't be your Loli Fantasy!
avatar
West Nile
WestNilepedia

Male

Forum Posts : 1747

Location : Some Where in Nevada... or in the Philippines

Fan of : Triela, Elsa, Enrica & Henrietta

Original Characters : Lance Kane/Raphael, Ella, Mina & Brandon, Sophia & Wesley, Anica & Andrew, Rio de Sica, Marionette

Registration date : 2008-01-22

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by LoC978 on Tue 26 Feb 2008 - 10:13

those still look like extremely dense muscle fibers underneath light armor plating, to me. if it was electronic there would be fewer wires and more plastic/metal/hydraulics/armor (and that actually looks very dissimilar to the T2 hand)
...this pretty much reinforces my view on how they use artificial muscles to dampen the effect of a bullet striking.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Moderatio est figmentum.
avatar
LoC978
Beach Bum Revolutionary

Male

Forum Posts : 2628

Location : Northwestern USA. Usually Portland.

Fan of : At home- Claes. Abroad- Rico.

Registration date : 2007-09-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Wileama on Tue 26 Feb 2008 - 11:47

hmm, definitely looks like muscle to me. What that muscle is made of, isn't clear form the picture. However there is nothing to disprove previous evidence/hypothesis of Bio-muscle being used.

What the white pieces are is more open for debate. The could be carbon fiber bones. They could get the electronic nervous system. Armor doesn't make sense as it only seems to protect the hand. Then again the hand is more delicate then the arm. So plating here could help protect joints, where as on the arm it could be argued plating is redundant. For right now I'm going to go with armor. Anyone have other ideas as to what they could be?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Strive for your next breath.  Believe that with it you can do more than with the last one.  Use your breath to power your capacities: capacity to kill, to maim, to destroy.

T-Minus 15.193792102158E+9 years until the universe closes!

Marathon
avatar
Wileama
Sith Lord

Male

Forum Posts : 1053

Fan of : Triela

Original Characters : Marcello

Comments : Everybody's favorite crew chief. Without him, the flyboys are powerless.

Registration date : 2007-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Guest on Tue 26 Feb 2008 - 12:45

I seem to recall reading somewhere that all the cyborgs had their muscles replaced with an artificial material (along with replacing organs and skeletal modifications). I think it was when Petra was being introduced (since the 2nd gen cyborgs weren't as heavily modified as 1st gens). If anyone cares I can go try to find it, but I'm feeling kind of lazy at the moment Razz

As for the plates on her hand, I'd imagine they're there to reinforce the bones. Imagine having superhuman strenght and then punching something harder than a squishy human body. I'm not a doctor, but I'd imagine it's pretty likely you'd break something in your hand. Of course, they could just be integrated brass knuckles too...

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Guest on Tue 26 Feb 2008 - 17:20

@ Wileama and Bentron,
We already know. Carbon fibers make up the "muscles", carbon frames make up the "bones". Carbon frames are what makes up the skeleton of your bicycle (if you have one), and carbon fibers can be used to reinforce muscle fibers, probably increasing strength (and weight) 3x that of the girls' original strength.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by West Nile on Tue 26 Feb 2008 - 21:00

*pointing aimlessly at previous post*

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Photobucket
Just cause I'm dead, doesn't mean I can't be your Loli Fantasy!
avatar
West Nile
WestNilepedia

Male

Forum Posts : 1747

Location : Some Where in Nevada... or in the Philippines

Fan of : Triela, Elsa, Enrica & Henrietta

Original Characters : Lance Kane/Raphael, Ella, Mina & Brandon, Sophia & Wesley, Anica & Andrew, Rio de Sica, Marionette

Registration date : 2008-01-22

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by LoC978 on Tue 26 Feb 2008 - 21:18

still doesn't follow.. carbon fibers don't expand and contract like muscle tissue.. I still vote that it's some sorta rubbery substance.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Moderatio est figmentum.
avatar
LoC978
Beach Bum Revolutionary

Male

Forum Posts : 2628

Location : Northwestern USA. Usually Portland.

Fan of : At home- Claes. Abroad- Rico.

Registration date : 2007-09-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Wileama on Tue 26 Feb 2008 - 21:29

@Colonel Marksman wrote:Carbon fibers make up the "muscles"
Yeah, but the material science of it doesn't pan out. That's just techno babble. I've said it before, I'll say it again. From an engineering stand point it doesn't make any sense. I have never ever ever hear of carbon fibers being used for artificial muscle. Only electroactive polymers make any sense if your going to use an artificial material. Integrating that with carbon fiber would do nothing, but weaken the structure.

Think about it. Since carbon fiber doesn't contract the fiber has to be the length of the muscle when fully extended. This would only help prevent dislocation of joints. While they would consume space you could be using for the polymers, that would make the muscle stronger. Their also going to effect the structure of the muscle when it contracts, probably badly. There is no benefit to using carbon fiber in artificial muscle. It is techno babble that would be best ignored.

The one reason I've been keen to believe that they just use bioengineered muscle is due to the power source. Artificial muscle requires electricity to move. To do what the girls do, you would need to store an incredible amount of electrical energy in the body. You would need to figure a way for the girls to convert their bio-energy into that electricity rapidly. A tough engineering feat at best. Not to mention what would happen if that power system became ungrounded by damage. It would be a hell of think for a girl to electrocute herself. Though if they are powered by electricity that could be what the white stuff is, a power bus. I think it unlike, but still.

Thought: energy in > energy out. The girls should have a scary appetite after some of their super human feats. Etta's running down the mopped especially comes to mind. The only way to avoid that would be to provide them an alter source of energy. Maybe the chairs are actually induction coils. HA HA HA HA HA! Yeah that'll be the day...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Strive for your next breath.  Believe that with it you can do more than with the last one.  Use your breath to power your capacities: capacity to kill, to maim, to destroy.

T-Minus 15.193792102158E+9 years until the universe closes!

Marathon
avatar
Wileama
Sith Lord

Male

Forum Posts : 1053

Fan of : Triela

Original Characters : Marcello

Comments : Everybody's favorite crew chief. Without him, the flyboys are powerless.

Registration date : 2007-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 26 Feb 2008 - 21:45

@Wileama wrote:The girls should have a scary appetite after some of their super human feats.

Maybe that's why the Agency has a veritable banquet hall on their premises, packed with so much damn food.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------





There may be no peace for the wicked, but the righteous can damn well get a piece whenever they feel like it.
avatar
Nachtsider
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD

Male

Forum Posts : 5718

Location : Inside your closet. In your head.

Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated

Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus

Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.

Registration date : 2007-09-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by LoC978 on Tue 26 Feb 2008 - 22:20

that's always been my assumption...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Moderatio est figmentum.
avatar
LoC978
Beach Bum Revolutionary

Male

Forum Posts : 2628

Location : Northwestern USA. Usually Portland.

Fan of : At home- Claes. Abroad- Rico.

Registration date : 2007-09-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Guest on Wed 27 Feb 2008 - 1:38

It has finally been noted by me that "carbon frames" are made out of "carbon fibers", as one material. IMO, woven, carbon frames can be used before being allowed to dry competely hard, will be harder than steel. However, such a skin would still be somewhat vulnerable to bladed weapons.

The use of carbon fibers in the girls' cyborg bodies is canon, so its in there somewhere. Probably in the bones. With a bit of research, I noticed some of the best prostetics cannot handle much impact without breaking bones (unless your bones were reinforced with carbon fibers Very Happy ).

I found this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwNwtbTmGvg&feature=related
Thought it was interesting.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Wileama on Sat 29 Mar 2008 - 11:27

There are matters to discuss:



This is a big change from what we see in volume four. [can anyone pull up a photo of that for comparison. When we see the removed leg in volume four we can only see what looks to be flesh in the leg, with the possible exception of the bone. This is a radical departure from what we seen displayed previously during surgeries.

It does answer a few questions:
  1. Why do the girls not bleed? The leg seems to be a fairly self contained unit. It is possible it is able to monitor, and control blood flow. Another possibility is that the leg is highly mechanical reducing the need for blood.
  2. Nerve connections are clearly electrical with microprocessors.
  3. The legs also clearly show armor plates, most likely constructed of carbon fiber. This would seem to be the key method of armoring the girls.
However it also raises some questions:
  1. What is the primary drive mechanism for the girls? We see what would appear to be muscle fiber. Their usage seems however strange to me. They are being used as main drive actuators, while electrical actuators are being used for smaller tasks. It doesn't make sense. A more traditional actuator would likely out power artificial muscle. While artificial muscle would be easier to use in small delicate work like the foot, and hand. Unless what we see on the foot is armor, it just doesn't make sense to me.
  2. Where do the girls get their electrical power? The best option is mostly likely batteries powered by body fluids. If the artifical muscles are powered by electricity though I'm not sure you could generate the power required. Induction coils could provide a back up, but there's no evidence of it anywhere.
  3. Where are the actuators that move the leg at the hip? The smart thing to do would be to place them in a similar place to where they are in the body. However it would appear that the leg holds none of those muscles.
Finally there are a few lessons we can take away from this.
  1. Touching various parts of the body would clearly reveal the armor plates just below the skin, or the strange joint construction. It would be a fairly easy way to detect cybrogs. Personally I also thing that it would cause the leg to look different as well, but obviously they dont.
  2. Depending on the construction of the carbon fiber, and nervous system the girls could be very vulnerable to a taser. While there are likely circuit breakers, that prevent total paralsis, A tazer to the spine is probably a serious issue.
Personally I don't like this in the least. It seems a change from what we have perviously seen. That, and it completely destroys my theories on armoring, and construction. There is a part of my that wants to blame it on artland, but I doubt Yu would have given a green like to that imagine if he didn't feel it would work. I just don't want to accept this... Holier-than-thou

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Strive for your next breath.  Believe that with it you can do more than with the last one.  Use your breath to power your capacities: capacity to kill, to maim, to destroy.

T-Minus 15.193792102158E+9 years until the universe closes!

Marathon
avatar
Wileama
Sith Lord

Male

Forum Posts : 1053

Fan of : Triela

Original Characters : Marcello

Comments : Everybody's favorite crew chief. Without him, the flyboys are powerless.

Registration date : 2007-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by LoC978 on Sat 29 Mar 2008 - 12:23

Wil wrote:This is a big change from what we see in volume four. [can anyone pull up a photo of that for comparison?] When we see the removed leg in volume four we can only see what looks to be flesh in the leg, with the possible exception of the bone.
here ya go:


all I have to add is that the way the leg seems to attach in the anime makes little to no sense... human legs attach with a hip joint (which the one in the manga seems set up to do) for a very good reason. If they just sorta clicked in from the top, as that one seems to, it wouldn't take much to knock it clean off, when compared to natural human physiology.
Wil wrote:Personally I don't like this in the least. It seems a change from what we have perviously seen. That, and it completely destroys my theories on armoring, and construction. There is a part of my that wants to blame it on artland, but I doubt Yu would have given a green like to that imagine if he didn't feel it would work. I just don't want to accept this... Holier-than-thou
same.. except... with the series being so rushed, it's entirely possible that the animators were just told to "make a cyborg leg" for that scene. It certainly seems to fit with what a layman might envision if he's just told "cyborg leg"... basically, it's sci-fi minus the science.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Moderatio est figmentum.
avatar
LoC978
Beach Bum Revolutionary

Male

Forum Posts : 2628

Location : Northwestern USA. Usually Portland.

Fan of : At home- Claes. Abroad- Rico.

Registration date : 2007-09-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Guest on Sun 30 Mar 2008 - 0:33

I'm with Wileama on this one, though I thought that's what you (Wileama) always imagined of the cyborgs. However, I do have a theory about the electricity. Perhaps the natural biological electric impulses are used. IOW, natural food is your energy source. Getting it "jump-started" would be the real need for power.

One reason I threw away bone replacement is that bones not only hold our bodies together, they recycle and produce white blood cells... unless these cybertronics are capable of producing white blood cells. Medicine may also be digested to replace such needs. Idk.

But the other reason is smoothness. Cybertronics just can't compete with the grace of the human body, not yet anyway. Also, I don't see the girls twisting their limbs about in 360-degree movements like a robot (though, that doesn't mean they can't... *shivers at the creepy thought of imagining Rico doing that after someone hits her hard enough*). And yet, our pint-sized assassins are supposed to move fast and strong?

But I also agree with LoC too. Many times (too many), the manga DOES conflict with the anime, as books do with the movies.

It would take me awhile to swallow, but I can get used to the thought. In ordinary means, though, I have but one serious attack: Muscules surround the bone, not the other way around. Looking at that foot is what I'm most objectional to me. The joints also seem limited (a single pivotal direction, as opposed to a ball-socket).

Then again, we can just call that armor over a skin fixture we can't see.

3. The legs also clearly show armor plates, most likely constructed of carbon fiber. This would seem to be the key method of armoring the girls.
We can also see that such armor plates don't cover 100% of the cyborg's surface area, giving way to a few and minor weakpoints (such as under the ribcage where Angie was shot and Claes was stabbed).

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Guest on Wed 9 Apr 2008 - 3:31

There is some work being done on blood-powered batteries and we can expect that to be used in the girls. With the fast discharge batteries being developed you can use a network of them as high rating capacitors to provide for the short term needs of the limb with a slower charge up from the girls blood.

The primary concern is the charge voltage since capacitors and batteries have a maximum energy capacity based the square of the charging voltage (IIRC). I doubt the girls have transformers lodged in their bodies, primarily due to the heat issues.

The armouring seen above is actually non-optimal for dealing with anything above a knife attack unless the underside has a kevlar layer, damage caused by internal flaking can be more serious than that of the ballistic impact would have been. In fact, us limeys developed and used a round specifically designed to make use of interior flaking in tanks and bunkers (HESH) until kevlar interiors became common enough to render it ineffective.


Last edited by Fomoria on Wed 9 Apr 2008 - 3:49; edited 2 times in total

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Wileama on Wed 9 Apr 2008 - 9:40

Oh you are going to fit right in, I can tell.

Well here's an issue then. Marco has Angelica run laps around the dorms. Now the purpose of this would appear to be increasing her physical stamina. However as a handler he should have some understanding of the cyborgs mechanics. Traditional endurance training like this would be absolutely worthless if the muscles where electrically powered. The electrical system will not improve through constant stressing. It might help combat memory issues if using Lithium Ion batteries, but that's it.

Maybe the girls have a hybrid muscles system. Normally running off bio-chemical energy. With electrical assist in high stress periods. I'm not going to say that it couldn't be done. However the idea of the girls loaded down with an electrical system just doesn't strike me as right. My electrical knowledge isn't the best, but the only system that would appear to meet the girls needs is an Induction coil. There is no way we could have missed that.

As for the armoring, the plates are constructed of carbon fiber, and Handwavium. The Handwavium allows the carbon to for in novel structures that are extremely well suited for armor applications. I don't like the plates in general. I could understand their use in key locals like the spin, heart, and certain other areas. However they would have to be further under the skin to be undetecatable. As the image shows them they should be clearly visible under the skin.

All in all I have to say that leg is probably not Cannon. There is nothing intelligent in the design of it. Yu Aida seemed to be a smart man. He didn't try to explain his magic tech. He made it a black box, and reveal as few of it's workings as possible. He freely showed what goes in, and what comes out. You see things the author gets wrong will break the suspension of disbelief. Fans are more likely to create their own answers about the black box that:
1) are believable
2) are plausible.
In that order. This particular leg is a departure from that concept. That leg also exposes the strengths of the black box. Before that picture none of use could be certain about some things. We could all walk away believing what we wanted to believe. Further more we can point at something, and call it for being piss poor engineering.

You know what: I don't think this leg is cannocial, there is nothing intelligent about it. Does anyone oppose this stance?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Strive for your next breath.  Believe that with it you can do more than with the last one.  Use your breath to power your capacities: capacity to kill, to maim, to destroy.

T-Minus 15.193792102158E+9 years until the universe closes!

Marathon
avatar
Wileama
Sith Lord

Male

Forum Posts : 1053

Fan of : Triela

Original Characters : Marcello

Comments : Everybody's favorite crew chief. Without him, the flyboys are powerless.

Registration date : 2007-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Guest on Wed 9 Apr 2008 - 13:28

You're a Limey? ... ... WELCOME!!!! Glad to know a Limey! I haven't heard that term since an old history study... do you guys really call yourselves that?

Maybe the girls have a hybrid muscles system.
... That was where I was trying to go for, but yeah. I was thinking that the metallic parts we see may be:
1) Covering the muscles we can't see,
2) Acting as a bone replacement (or) bone armor plating


As the image shows them they should be clearly visible under the skin.
While I agree with you 100% here, I'm suggesting that perhaps this IS the underlayer... the muscle isn't on there yet (IOW, we're not looking at muscle).

I'll accept the leg... so long as they don't call that 100% bone or 100% muscle replacement. In essence, I don't believe they're finished and ready to put the skin on in that screenshot.


I bet Season 2 was taking so long due to some of these problems.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 10 Apr 2008 - 16:53

It seems that they would put on the leg first, and then the skin covering later. This was mentioned at least twice in assembling and repairing the cyborgs:
With Triela under her repairs (forgot which volume)
With Elizabetta when being changed into Petrushka in Volume 6.
With Angelica in the Pasta Prince Manga chapters (her legs being exposed and her internals being seen) and in Volume 9.

It is also mentioned in the 2nd episode of the 1st season anime, when the doctor told Henrietta (after her 'simple repair'), 'No Baths... No Baths until that skin takes hold.'

Question would be why would they do it this way? Answer: To make adjustments during Cyborg Physical Traning. Once that is completed, the skin goes back on as a unit.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If Fernando had Super Powers, He would be God!
avatar
ElfenMagix

Male

Forum Posts : 5667

Location : NYC NY, USA

Fan of : Pia, Elsa, Cleas, Triela...

Original Characters : Fernando & Rachel, Felix & Francesca

Comments : He has super powers. He is God.

Registration date : 2007-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Wileama on Thu 10 Apr 2008 - 20:05

Perhaps it's to avoid scare tissue?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Strive for your next breath.  Believe that with it you can do more than with the last one.  Use your breath to power your capacities: capacity to kill, to maim, to destroy.

T-Minus 15.193792102158E+9 years until the universe closes!

Marathon
avatar
Wileama
Sith Lord

Male

Forum Posts : 1053

Fan of : Triela

Original Characters : Marcello

Comments : Everybody's favorite crew chief. Without him, the flyboys are powerless.

Registration date : 2007-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 10 Apr 2008 - 20:23

If Elizabetta's leg was amputated because of bone cancer, I think scar tissue on Petrushka's leg would be the least of her problem... Alessandro is still looking at her ass! :face:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If Fernando had Super Powers, He would be God!
avatar
ElfenMagix

Male

Forum Posts : 5667

Location : NYC NY, USA

Fan of : Pia, Elsa, Cleas, Triela...

Original Characters : Fernando & Rachel, Felix & Francesca

Comments : He has super powers. He is God.

Registration date : 2007-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Wileama on Thu 10 Apr 2008 - 21:50

Well what I'm saying is that if they added limbs with skin on it, the different pieces of skin are going to heal together. It's possible that scars could form on these seams. A dead give away that something is different about this girl. Does that make more sense?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Strive for your next breath.  Believe that with it you can do more than with the last one.  Use your breath to power your capacities: capacity to kill, to maim, to destroy.

T-Minus 15.193792102158E+9 years until the universe closes!

Marathon
avatar
Wileama
Sith Lord

Male

Forum Posts : 1053

Fan of : Triela

Original Characters : Marcello

Comments : Everybody's favorite crew chief. Without him, the flyboys are powerless.

Registration date : 2007-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Guest on Thu 10 Apr 2008 - 22:50

@Wileama wrote:Well what I'm saying is that if they added limbs with skin on it, the different pieces of skin are going to heal together. It's possible that scars could form on these seams. A dead give away that something is different about this girl. Does that make more sense?
Um... you mean that this girl's leg is a different case? Because I didn't get it.

Still, I think we all agree that this leg isn't (at least, shouldn't) be finished, even internally.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Wileama on Fri 11 Apr 2008 - 22:43

Wow I must really suck at trying to get this idea across.

Okay the initial question was why do they decide to grow the skin all at once when they build the cyborgs right? Elfen explanation was that it made final adjustments easier. I'm suggesting that they grow the skin to avoid scar tissue.

You know when people get surgery you can often tell, because there is a scare where the cut was made? Well it's possible that the joint between the new leg, and the old leg could scar in the same way isn't it? Imagine if there where scares like this where ever the doctors replaced a limb. The girls would look a bit like Frankenstein's monster.

Does that make more sense?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Strive for your next breath.  Believe that with it you can do more than with the last one.  Use your breath to power your capacities: capacity to kill, to maim, to destroy.

T-Minus 15.193792102158E+9 years until the universe closes!

Marathon
avatar
Wileama
Sith Lord

Male

Forum Posts : 1053

Fan of : Triela

Original Characters : Marcello

Comments : Everybody's favorite crew chief. Without him, the flyboys are powerless.

Registration date : 2007-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by sasahara17 on Sat 12 Apr 2008 - 3:23

Hm, there's an idea. What if one of the doctors screwed up badly during a maintaince cycle, and one of the girls wakes up looking like a stiched together rag doll?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Who is that hot glasses wearing babe I wonder...
avatar
sasahara17

Male

Forum Posts : 1001

Fan of : GSGs? Claes-sama and Elsa-chan. Outside that? Bloodhound Jr. and Saber

Original Characters : Wilfred Sheppard, I-CARE agent.

Comments : A walking idea powerhouse.

Registration date : 2007-11-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Guest on Sun 13 Apr 2008 - 15:05

@sasahara17 wrote:Hm, there's an idea. What if one of the doctors screwed up badly during a maintaince cycle, and one of the girls wakes up looking like a stiched together rag doll?

They get put back under the knife when a new set of skin is prepared? I'm assuming they're capable of produced a replacement skin for the girls, because otherwise it'd be pretty difficult to repair them seamlessly after they get missing limbs replaced.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by sasahara17 on Sun 13 Apr 2008 - 18:29

Fomoria wrote:
@sasahara17 wrote:Hm, there's an idea. What if one of the doctors screwed up badly during a maintaince cycle, and one of the girls wakes up looking like a stiched together rag doll?

They get put back under the knife when a new set of skin is prepared? I'm assuming they're capable of produced a replacement skin for the girls, because otherwise it'd be pretty difficult to repair them seamlessly after they get missing limbs replaced.
I'm more of thinking along the lines that they messed up completely, Bianci is like... ooh, err, lets do a once over, shall we... then our poor cyborg decides it's the perfect time to wake up. She, somehow before the doctors can sedate her again, she catches a glimpse of her sticted together body in a mirror and...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Who is that hot glasses wearing babe I wonder...
avatar
sasahara17

Male

Forum Posts : 1001

Fan of : GSGs? Claes-sama and Elsa-chan. Outside that? Bloodhound Jr. and Saber

Original Characters : Wilfred Sheppard, I-CARE agent.

Comments : A walking idea powerhouse.

Registration date : 2007-11-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Guest on Sun 13 Apr 2008 - 20:48

@Wileama wrote:Wow I must really suck at trying to get this idea across.

Okay the initial question was why do they decide to grow the skin all at once when they build the cyborgs right? Elfen explanation was that it made final adjustments easier. I'm suggesting that they grow the skin to avoid scar tissue.

You know when people get surgery you can often tell, because there is a scare where the cut was made? Well it's possible that the joint between the new leg, and the old leg could scar in the same way isn't it? Imagine if there where scares like this where ever the doctors replaced a limb. The girls would look a bit like Frankenstein's monster.

Does that make more sense?
Oh, ok, I see it now. Were the girls to look like a monster from multiple surgeries (Angie being the prime case IMO), now scar tissue is an issue... um... tis' sue... oh crap...

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Guest on Tue 15 Apr 2008 - 11:04

@sasahara17 wrote:
Fomoria wrote:
@sasahara17 wrote:Hm, there's an idea. What if one of the doctors screwed up badly during a maintaince cycle, and one of the girls wakes up looking like a stiched together rag doll?

They get put back under the knife when a new set of skin is prepared? I'm assuming they're capable of produced a replacement skin for the girls, because otherwise it'd be pretty difficult to repair them seamlessly after they get missing limbs replaced.
I'm more of thinking along the lines that they messed up completely, Bianci is like... ooh, err, lets do a once over, shall we... then our poor cyborg decides it's the perfect time to wake up. She, somehow before the doctors can sedate her again, she catches a glimpse of her sticted together body in a mirror and...

No reaction, they're used to waking up after surgery with things changed. Bianci would probably inform them that there's been a mistake and that they should wear more covering clothes for the moment, and inform the handler of the problem then get the new skin grown or made (will take some time).

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by boomer_gonz on Thu 17 Apr 2008 - 14:38

O---kay. I'm going to throw all my ducks in a row on this one.

The bones of the girls(aka cyborgs) are in fact some kind of layered carbon fiber. In the old board I mentioned how carbon fiber can be made really light and flexible yet with less strength and durability. The obverse can be said. So, it's possible that at the center is a very small, very dense mesh of carbon fiber with sheets surrounding the center becoming more lighter and flexible with another dense sheet covering it all. That's the way I would do it anyway.

The muscles themselves are probably a bio-engineered material like medical grade neoprene(the stuff used in knee, hip, and joint replacements) as would be the tendons and ligaments. I would use a protein-based bio-polymer surroundind be the stuff to allow it the abilty to expand and contract and able to withstand blunt force trauma.

Skin wouldn't be that hard to synthesize. Especially with medical technology leaning away from the ever popular(and painful) skin grafting techniques. Using stem cell treatment with artificial lipo-protein collagen, DuPont has realized the first truly liquid skin. Using such a technique they would probably farm such as a sheet and cut away excess after application. Kind of like putting a pie crust in a pie pan.

Nerves are going to be a bit trickier. My best guess is that ultra-high frequency optic fiber has been developed past the 40-gauge level. Some sort of micro-amplifier is placed at the joints as a precautionary measure. You can also say that it's overengineering.

Well there's my change. Did I miss anything?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Power of Claes Compels You!!!
avatar
boomer_gonz

Male

Forum Posts : 2560

Location : California Republic

Fan of : Crystal Palace!!!

Original Characters : Alpha/Omega Fratello & Dr. Giacomo Gianncomo

Registration date : 2007-09-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Guest on Wed 21 May 2008 - 14:20

I remember from the game PlanetSide that a considerable number of your characters implants would reside inside the chest cavity.

I'm going to suggest that the muscles are specially grown muscles, probably based off of high endurance/strength animals. They're not RaptorJesus, they can't lob engine blocks around, so it's probably only a bit more effective than human tissue. (150-180%)

Another approach. If I recall correctly, the girls weigh significantly more than usual. Perhaps the muscles are just high density human muscles?

Now, as for the bone replacements, why not? Going back to my first point, about the abdominal cavity, why not have something there that maintains their bloodstream? Perhaps they don't even use traditional blood, and they use respirocytes?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respirocyte

My personal opinion is that all the muscles were altered, so while it's still the original muscle, it's significantly stronger. While perhaps even the bones are merely coated in carbon fiber?

I digress, the most realistic augmented human I've heard of yet is the Master Chief:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartan_ii#SPARTAN-IIs ...Shame, this article used to have so much more about the augmentations. Explaining how their eyesight was enhanced (bleaching the retinas, IIRC, etc etc.)

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Guest on Wed 21 May 2008 - 14:20


Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by KodokuRyuu on Wed 21 May 2008 - 14:39

Hmm... titanium. I wonder if they use that on the girls. Bone naturally osseointegrates (fuses) to it so it could be quite useful.
avatar
KodokuRyuu
Resident Translator

Male

Forum Posts : 1237

Location : Texas

Fan of : Triela, Beatrice, Silvia

Original Characters : Hulkshire, Yu Aida, Berny & Bea

Registration date : 2008-04-28

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by LoC978 on Wed 21 May 2008 - 19:03

the big thing about bone replacement (specifically the removal of natural bone marrow) is the creation of white blood cells.
Respirocytes only replace red blood cells... so your oxygen delivery needs are met. Immune system needs (replacement of white blood cells) would need to be met by something else. The Respirocyte wiki article mentions "microbivore robots" for that role... and doesn't explain what they are... but they sound like nanotech to me, which seems a little out of the GSG-verse's league.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Moderatio est figmentum.
avatar
LoC978
Beach Bum Revolutionary

Male

Forum Posts : 2628

Location : Northwestern USA. Usually Portland.

Fan of : At home- Claes. Abroad- Rico.

Registration date : 2007-09-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Guest on Wed 21 May 2008 - 19:44

Yes, but if their bodies are primarily custom made, it could stand to reason that they are pretty resiliant. Hell, I don't remember them ever needing gasmasks, so their lungs probably filter bacteria as it enters.

But what I was saying about the abdominal cavity implant is that that would maintain the bloodstream, including the immune system.

And what I was saying about the bloodsteam originally is to just fuck the red blood cells, and leave the rest intact.

But why not change it so that red blood cells don't use iron? Perhaps something that oxygen clings to more readily?

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 21 May 2008 - 19:48

New, improved, synthetic hemoglobin?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------





There may be no peace for the wicked, but the righteous can damn well get a piece whenever they feel like it.
avatar
Nachtsider
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD

Male

Forum Posts : 5718

Location : Inside your closet. In your head.

Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated

Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus

Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.

Registration date : 2007-09-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Guest on Wed 21 May 2008 - 19:49

Yeah, that's the idea behind respirocytes, except that instead of most of the cell being dedicated to sustaining itself, most of it is dedicated to holding oxygen.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by KodokuRyuu on Wed 21 May 2008 - 20:12

@LoC978 wrote:the big thing about bone replacement (specifically the removal of natural bone marrow) is the creation of white blood cells.
Respirocytes only replace red blood cells... so your oxygen delivery needs are met. Immune system needs (replacement of white blood cells) would need to be met by something else. The Respirocyte wiki article mentions "microbivore robots" for that role... and doesn't explain what they are... but they sound like nanotech to me, which seems a little out of the GSG-verse's league.
Couldn't their repertoire of drugs take care of that? Bong hit


Last edited by KodokuRyuu on Wed 21 May 2008 - 21:28; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Couldn't resist adding this emoticon)
avatar
KodokuRyuu
Resident Translator

Male

Forum Posts : 1237

Location : Texas

Fan of : Triela, Beatrice, Silvia

Original Characters : Hulkshire, Yu Aida, Berny & Bea

Registration date : 2008-04-28

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 21 May 2008 - 21:30

The girls would die from that after a while.

The long bones, pelvic girdle and ribs contain marrow for blood rengeration. Those parts do not have to be replaced but augmented. The body still uses calcium, potasium and clorine for things other than building bones, so the supply is still needed.

So, replacing the arms/legs and augmenting the rest would be simple for GsG

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If Fernando had Super Powers, He would be God!
avatar
ElfenMagix

Male

Forum Posts : 5667

Location : NYC NY, USA

Fan of : Pia, Elsa, Cleas, Triela...

Original Characters : Fernando & Rachel, Felix & Francesca

Comments : He has super powers. He is God.

Registration date : 2007-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Wileama on Wed 21 May 2008 - 22:44

Okay I have thought about the girls using artificial blood before. First thing you have to understand is that Respiroctes aren't just fiction, their reality. I'm aware of two kinds currently available: Hemoglobin based, and Perfluorocarbon based. Both offer their own advantages, and disadvantages. The article you link on wikipedia is a little bit on the optimistic side to put it lightly. Certainly such things are chemically possible. However you would need to properly saturate the respirocytes. Which means you either need to be breath off a tank of pure oxygen for a while, or you need much better lungs.

One major hurdle to using respirocyte is production in body. If you can't get the body to produce it, they your really just doing some interesting blood doping. With current tech I don't really see us designing an organ as complex as the spleen. [That is the one that produces red blood cells right?] We're talking about a level of bio-engineering, and nano-tech that I don't think even the GSG universe reasonable has. What's more is that there are serious questions as to long term [see days, and even months] use of current universal blood substitutes. I mean besides the possibly toxic nature of the Perfluorocarbon products there are some other real issues. You don't want to breath pure oxygen for too long. It does things to your body. Like make you high, and increase free radical count. You would essentially be doing the same thing if you made your blood supply super efficient.

One thing that might work is if you had a small limited supply in a sealed container. Then injected it, along with some other awesome chemicals I'm sure, into the body under certain circumstance. Say an increased adrenaline level. Even then though that's going to be a bitch to refill. Not to mention the space in 13 years chest is limited, and you need to level enough space for other things, like organs. Also imagine it malfunctioning, and just emptying it's load when ever it please. I not convinced the gain out weighs the cost yet, in either case.

TomatoSoup wrote:Yes, but if their bodies are primarily custom made, it could stand to reason that they are pretty resiliant. Hell, I don't remember them ever needing gasmasks, so their lungs probably filter bacteria as it enters.
No. NO. The filters on my gasmask last hours. I'm not putting a consumable in a cyborg that I have to change once a week. Especially if I would need to preform surgery to change it.

TomatoSoup wrote:But what I was saying about the abdominal cavity implant is that that would maintain the bloodstream, including the immune system.
Creating an organ to create white blood cell is tricky. Not as trick as redesigning the spleen to spit out super efficient blood cells. Basicly you would just be repacking bone marrow. However finding enough free space for it could be tricky. Mother nature had a long time to figure out a good way to make the human body work. No reason to throw out the baby with the bath water. Which is why I side with the camp that thinks the bones are simply armored. Which while still very complicated, is simpler in comparison. You have to make it porous enough to allow white blood cells out, yet strong enough to protect the marrow, and bone. That, and avoid the possibility of immune system rejection.

TomatoSoup wrote:But why not change it so that red blood cells don't use iron? Perhaps something that oxygen clings to more readily?
Growing a muscle in a vat is very simple compared to tweaking our respiratory system. I'm not saying this isn't an idea that doesn't have merit. I just don't think it's at the stage where it's ready for any real world applications just yet.

I would sit around, and polish this post some more but I have to get to work.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Strive for your next breath.  Believe that with it you can do more than with the last one.  Use your breath to power your capacities: capacity to kill, to maim, to destroy.

T-Minus 15.193792102158E+9 years until the universe closes!

Marathon
avatar
Wileama
Sith Lord

Male

Forum Posts : 1053

Fan of : Triela

Original Characters : Marcello

Comments : Everybody's favorite crew chief. Without him, the flyboys are powerless.

Registration date : 2007-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by LoC978 on Wed 21 May 2008 - 22:55

Wil wrote:With current tech I don't really see us designing an organ as complex as the spleen. [That is the one that produces red blood cells right?]
It's sort of a secondary creator for red blood cells, alongside the liver (which, as a drinking member of the US military, I'm sure you know the main function of). Incidentally, the spleen's main function is actually the collection and destruction of old red blood cells.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Moderatio est figmentum.
avatar
LoC978
Beach Bum Revolutionary

Male

Forum Posts : 2628

Location : Northwestern USA. Usually Portland.

Fan of : At home- Claes. Abroad- Rico.

Registration date : 2007-09-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Guest on Sun 25 May 2008 - 22:58

@Wileama wrote:
TomatoSoup wrote:But why not change it so that red blood cells don't use iron? Perhaps something that oxygen clings to more readily?
Growing a muscle in a vat is very simple compared to tweaking our respiratory system. I'm not saying this isn't an idea that doesn't have merit. I just don't think it's at the stage where it's ready for any real world applications just yet.

You wouldn't want to take the iron out of hemoglobin. For one thing, it would completely screw up the chains of amino acids that make up hemoglobin. Mess those up you get something like Sickle Cell Anemia, or worse.

Secondly, all that iron in the blood is important. Its an emergency reserve of a vital mineral for the rest of you body. And considering how much physical excertion the cyborgs go through, you'd want slightly elevated iron levels, because you'd be wearing out and creating new cells at a faster rate than normal. You could take supplements (which the girls undoubtably do) but the body is much more efficient than we ever could be at regulating that sort of thing. Just make sure they have a healthy diet.

So taking iron out of the blood = bad.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Awinnell on Mon 26 May 2008 - 4:40

i think you guys are uderestimating the amount of modifications made,it says in the manga,Jose: 80% of their bodies are carbon frame carbon fiber and artificial muscle.
couple that with the artificial skin and very little of the original girl is left,and most of that is internal,with some of them having the internal organs considered unesscary (Uterus etc ) removed !

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


We are living in the smelly cloud of gods fart,one day the universe will end in a great cloud of airfreshener
avatar
Awinnell
Stiff Upper Lip

Male

Forum Posts : 2131

Location : Hereford,England

Fan of : Triela,asuka

Original Characters : not yet

Comments : Loves to quote Wikipedia. Loves to use exclamation marks even more.

wish i knew who put that in there, it wasn't me !!!!!!!!!!!!


Registration date : 2008-05-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 26 May 2008 - 4:52

That's what I've been trying to tell everybody for a long time, really. But I think you're a little off about uteri - only Henrietta is generally believed to be missing her uterus, and the prevalent opinion is that the organ was removed either by the SWA doctors (due to it being greviously injured), or at the crime scene, by the killer of her family.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------





There may be no peace for the wicked, but the righteous can damn well get a piece whenever they feel like it.
avatar
Nachtsider
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD

Male

Forum Posts : 5718

Location : Inside your closet. In your head.

Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated

Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus

Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.

Registration date : 2007-09-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Awinnell on Mon 26 May 2008 - 4:56

i don't think claes has one either as she was told that her progress was good and that they may increase her eostrogen dosage,and anyway removing their reproductive system would stop puberty in its tracks and slow down their development making it easier to control growth

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


We are living in the smelly cloud of gods fart,one day the universe will end in a great cloud of airfreshener
avatar
Awinnell
Stiff Upper Lip

Male

Forum Posts : 2131

Location : Hereford,England

Fan of : Triela,asuka

Original Characters : not yet

Comments : Loves to quote Wikipedia. Loves to use exclamation marks even more.

wish i knew who put that in there, it wasn't me !!!!!!!!!!!!


Registration date : 2008-05-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Cybernetics

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum