There must be another way!!!!!

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There must be another way!!!!!

Post by West Nile on Thu 28 Feb 2008 - 5:17

It's been a recurring habbit already to say that "our girls don't have much to go" and every time i hear that it just sends a chill down my spine. so this thread is here so that we can at least discuss on probable ways to save the girls.... THERE MUST BE A WAY!!!! Hissy fit Hissy fit

Proposed methods so far:
Stem cell transplant
stopping the conditioning (if not at least reducing it to a very small dose, enough to keep them functioning)
surgery again

if ever a cyborg runs away from the agency does that lengthen or shorten their life span?


Last edited by West Nile on Thu 28 Feb 2008 - 5:21; edited 1 time in total

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by Nachtsider on Thu 28 Feb 2008 - 5:38

I'm sorry, Nile, but running away from the Agency would cut off the cyborgs from their medication, which, apart from mentally programming them to be loyal and stuff, acts as a substance to ensure optimal functioning of their cybernetics. Ergo, our runaways would only end up deteriorating, and halting their conditioning would not do. Reducing the dose should be fine, though - Triela appears to be doing alright despite being on minimal amounts.

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by West Nile on Thu 28 Feb 2008 - 5:43

that's what i thought too *looks worriedly at own fanfic*

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by Danjo3 on Thu 28 Feb 2008 - 18:01

@West Nile wrote:THERE MUST BE A WAY!!!! Hissy fit Hissy fit
In the manga, Dr. Bianchi says that the process is still being improved and that some day the problems may be eliminated. However he goes on to say that it probably wont happen in time to save Angie. Who knows? There may be hope for the girls after all.

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by Guest on Thu 28 Feb 2008 - 23:10

What about nanomachine treatment

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by Guest on Thu 28 Feb 2008 - 23:14

If you view the conditioning process as a sort of drug addiction it would simply be a matter of the girls surviving the withdrawl process which would be quite severe given how Angelica reacted when her drugs wore off. After the recovery the next step would be dealing with the real and imagined love they have for their handlers in addition to dealing with what they have done while in the service of section 2

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 28 Feb 2008 - 23:27

Nanomachine Technology does not exist in the GsG universe- at this time of its writing. Else they would have something better than what they have now.

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by Guest on Thu 28 Feb 2008 - 23:32

That makes sense oh well

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 28 Feb 2008 - 23:36

@crazyidiot78 wrote:If you view the conditioning process as a sort of drug addiction it would simply be a matter of the girls surviving the withdrawl process which would be quite severe given how Angelica reacted when her drugs wore off. After the recovery the next step would be dealing with the real and imagined love they have for their handlers in addition to dealing with what they have done while in the service of section 2
The medication used onthe girls does 2 (possibly more) things:

1) Keeps the mental conditioned response going.

2) Helps the girls with with cyborg implants. When one looses a body part, no matter how good the transplant part may be, there are still issues like Phantom Limb syndrome, which causes a lot of pain in the patient in question. This has to deal with that in some way. Second- these girls came into the SWA with literally broken bodies. Knowing from my injuries and from others- though it happened 20+ years ago, I am (and they are) still in a lot of pain and require pain management. One cant exactly be a good shot if one's body is screaming at them for release of that pain.

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 29 Feb 2008 - 2:05

Spot on, Elfen. And it's point #2 in particular that makes conditioning a must.

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by West Nile on Fri 29 Feb 2008 - 3:18

how about reducing condtioning to, just enough to full fill point #2

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 29 Feb 2008 - 4:30

Then incidents like this might happen all over the place, which simply would not do.

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by West Nile on Fri 29 Feb 2008 - 22:40

well im actally working on a theory that, if a handler goes "Pia & Ernest" on the SWA for a long time, will conditioning by a problem.

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 29 Feb 2008 - 22:42

If I remember right, Ernest escaped with Pia just so he could sell her to the enemy, for them to open her up and see what made her tick. Therefore, running out of conditioning wouldn't have been an issue.

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by West Nile on Fri 29 Feb 2008 - 22:57

i didn't know that, i was just trying to say what if a fratello went rougue

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 29 Feb 2008 - 22:59

Unless there's some other source of conditioning drugs out there, the cyborg component of a rogue fratello team probably wouldn't last.

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by West Nile on Fri 29 Feb 2008 - 23:02

that means my rogue fratello will need to raid the conditioning lab before they leave

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by LoC978 on Fri 29 Feb 2008 - 23:02

doesn't take much time to do considerable damage, though. with the right contacts and a little luck, a rogue fratello could concievably bring down the entire SWA in a matter of days (through a bombing and subsequent media coverage, I'm thinking).

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by West Nile on Fri 29 Feb 2008 - 23:05

How about guerilla warfare

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 29 Feb 2008 - 23:07

Guerilla warfare is a long, protracted thing. Long time without conditioning drugs equals problem.

The bombing and media coverage might very well work, LoC... but what would become of the rogue fratello team, once the Agency is exposed?

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by West Nile on Fri 29 Feb 2008 - 23:09

They can disappear as father and daughter, or Henrietta's case, husband and wife :lollol:

for the conditioning dilemma, they could always nic the formula and try to make their own

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 29 Feb 2008 - 23:14

The 'no-growth' and 'short life' dilemmas, on the other hand, will cause much trouble.

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by West Nile on Fri 29 Feb 2008 - 23:40

NO or less conditioning = no 'short life' dilemma

They can't die! they just can't Hissy fit

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 29 Feb 2008 - 23:42

No conditioning equals deterioration. Any amount of conditioning equals short life. Face it, Nile - it's a lose-lose situation, unless the cyber implants can be removed. But since the cyber implants are, in some cases, the only things keeping the girls alive...

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by Probit Return on Fri 29 Feb 2008 - 23:43

Ya know, I don't want them to die either, but I think you've lost this one Nile.

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by West Nile on Fri 29 Feb 2008 - 23:45

Stem cell transplant, kill all the embryos you want just make them live!!!

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 29 Feb 2008 - 23:48

Calm down, man - calm down. If we put our heads together and think things over, we're sure to come up with some plausible ways to save the girls.

Come to think of it, Danjo once wrote a story in which the girls were saved. But in that same story, he didn't bother explaining how the conditioning was reversed and the cyber implants were removed without any damage being done. It was a good story, true, but the bit I mention was an enormous plot hole.

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by West Nile on Fri 29 Feb 2008 - 23:50

5 stages of grief:

They can't die!
It's not fair, they don't deserve it!
There has to be another way!
This is so depressing....
Maybe it's meant to be....

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by Danjo3 on Sat 1 Mar 2008 - 3:31

@Nachtsider wrote:Come to think of it, Danjo once wrote a story in which the girls were saved. But in that same story, he didn't bother explaining how the conditioning was reversed and the cyber implants were removed without any damage being done. It was a good story, true, but the bit I mention was an enormous plot hole.
In my earlier drafts of the story I did explain it. In a nutshell, the girlís implants were adjusted as they grew. However, when I went back and reread it, it struck me as a lot of boring technical mumbo-jumbo that dragged down the story, so I dropped it and left it to the readerís imagination.

And as for the GSG purists who canít just enjoy a story for entertainments sake, I always had the old suspension of disbelief to hide behind. Laughing

As you can tell by that story, I too want to see our girlís live long and happy lives. The thought of them never growing up and dying young is just too sadÖ

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by LoC978 on Sat 1 Mar 2008 - 8:23

@Nachtsider wrote:The bombing and media coverage might very well work, LoC... but what would become of the rogue fratello team, once the Agency is exposed?
The girl would probably die in the bombing, and the handler would probably enter some sort of witness protection program.
...I really don't see a happy ending for any fratello in the SWA. Even if they do fix problems with the conditioning/implants/early death, their jobs are dangerous in the extreme. just look at what happened to Angie...

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 1 Mar 2008 - 8:29

No more dangerous than that of any regular active-duty cop or soldier, I'd say, and that's not even taking into account the many advantages the cyborgs have over their opponents. As long as the enemy don't wise up to their weaknesses, everything should continue to be a cakewalk for them.

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by LoC978 on Sat 1 Mar 2008 - 8:44

more along the lines of special forces intel... though the cop parallel almost works. They go in with a small group... normal soldiers count on overwhelming numbers as well as tactical superiority.
I could see SWA forces being overwhelmed and forced into retreat by as few as thirty well-armed thugs.

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 1 Mar 2008 - 8:47

I think that's doing the SWA a disservice, LoC.

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by LoC978 on Sat 1 Mar 2008 - 9:02

every operation we see them in puts them at a tactical advantage, up against fewer than twenty (not all that well armed) men. On the off chance that their intel is wrong, and they wind up at a tactical disadvantage against thirty or more men with assault rifles, they could concievably be forced to retreat, or even wiped out.

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 1 Mar 2008 - 9:13

We had four fratello teams and one additional cyborg up against twenty men in Season One/Episode Thirteen, most of whom had Kalashnikovs. And we all know how that one turned out - the battle culminated with the terrorists getting their arses handed to them. Tactical advantages aside, a SWA cyborg would still trump a normal human being when it comes down to a one-on-one or many-on-one fight hinging on fighting prowess.

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by LoC978 on Sat 1 Mar 2008 - 9:21

very true. But that's tactical advantages aside. I'm talking about a protracted firefight when outnumbered at least 5 to 1. In the villa raid they took on those thugs with the element of surprise on their side. Though Angie and Triela did wipe out... how many..? 7-10 thugs...? in a matter of seconds... but none of the poor dumb bastards were watching the window. I wonder how different it may've been if they were. There would certainly have been two wounded cyborgs in the first engagement.
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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by Wileama on Sat 1 Mar 2008 - 11:30

Oh this is a yummy topic. I'm going to have fun with this.

First. I don't see how a bomb blast would reveal the agency. The complex where they are at, is probably listed as a military/intelligence secret facility. A big part of the question is what part of the facility is damage. The compound by all appearances is huge. Your not going to take it out with a single truck bomb. A MOAB could do the job, but where not talking about having the USAF roll up on the SWA here. I some how doubt your going to get multiple VIEDs into the compound at ounce.

So if the cyborg facilities are hit, the near by medical facility should be able to handle the rapid response stuff. Then you bring in military aid to assist if need by. The military personnel can be kept quite. No civilians no leaks. You hit the medical, you only going to have 1-2 girls injured tops. This is not a large enough number to betray the facilities secret, even if treated by civilians. Any other location on base, faces a similarly mixture of these two out comes.

Those girls that do survive, are take by SWA to near by military bases, safe houses, intelligence facilities. The compound damage is repaired by military, or appropriately sanitized to allow a civilian crew to work in the area. All in all I don't see any information flow that would jeopardize the Agencies secret.

Even if the public did some how learn the Italian government was running an assassination program, it would have to name the SWA specifically. If it where just an Intelligence program the SWA could 'clean' itself of any cyborgs. One thing the agency is going to have going for itself, is the story is just kind of unbelievable. "Government uses cyborg preteen girls to kill opposition." Thats the kind of a story you expect the tabloids to run.

So if the SWA can clean itself of the cyborg program quickly, and quite they have a good chance of making out alright. Their may be lingering questions, but it'll probably look more like crackpot conspiracy theories then anything else.

That said lets move on to the girls losing. I think LoC is right on this one. Let me try to create a scenario out for you: Okay say you've got a two story building, and only one fratello to clear it. Inside you have 9 terrorists, normally good odds. Only the there are security cameras the fratello is unaware of. These camera's tip the terrorists inside to the fact their about to be attack. So they create a plan. Everyone goes up to the second floor. The only stair case to the second floor leads to the bottom of a U Shaped hallway. The end of each long hallway around the corner you set up a barricade of 4 men. One guy stays to watch the cameras. He then guides the appropriately barricade of men to move up to the corner as the cyborg moves to clear the opposite hallway.

The Cyborg is caught in a cross fire of 8 assult rifles. She's not staying, she's going to some fucking cover. Where? Maybe there's a room she can run into. That doesn't help her much though. She's probably going to take some hits in the process. She's now probably trapped in a room with only one way out. Which has 8 guys covering it. Hell they probably have the ammo to just spray and pray through the walls. Hell they may even have a grenade to pop into the room. She will have maybe 2-3 clips of her primary, with another 1-2 for her back up. Can you see how that would be a bad place to be?

Or maybe this is a better example. The Five Republics get a positive ID on one of the fratello. They set up a car ambush on one of Romes tiny winding roads. eight to ten men who get the chance to employ their weapons on the cyborg before she even has time to pull her weapon. Considering where she is, she's also probably going to be stuck with going for her pistol. Not to mention the handler is probably going to be wounded, and she's going to stay, and try to protect him. Again, a bad place to be.

See this is what LoC is talking about. The girls are always the ones with the initiative in combat. When you control the initiative in combat, you have strength. The girls could easily be out done by a combination of bad intelligence, a well equipped opponent, and the right tactics.

**Edit**
If it makes you feel better LoC, I had to work last saturday night/sunday morning.

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by Piero on Sat 1 Mar 2008 - 15:34

About the car ambush scenario, would said ambushers be employing assault rifles, submachine guns, or a mixture of both? Believe it or not, it could potentially be relevant.

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by Wileama on Sat 1 Mar 2008 - 20:25

How so, are you thinking smgs wont get good penetration on the car? Or that Long Rifles would be difficult to employ? I would expect to see a bit of a mix, with more rifles then smgs.

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by Piero on Sat 1 Mar 2008 - 21:58

I guess I was thinking how my OC fratello might fare in that situation. Mercedes offers factory installed discrete ballistic protection on some of their cars, but the protection level on the armoured E Classes isn't rated against assault rifles. An S Class can be had with that sort of protection, but they're more expensive and stand out more. (I saw quite a few mercedes in Italy, but I'm not sure there were too many of the flagship models. Not that I remember that matter very well.)

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 1 Mar 2008 - 22:02

I think the main worry shouldn't be about whether the stuff can penetrate the car, but about whether they can do the cyborgs any harm.

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by West Nile on Sun 2 Mar 2008 - 2:29

This isn't a kill the Cyborg thread this is a
SAVE THE GIRLS THREAD Hissy fit

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by Wileama on Sun 2 Mar 2008 - 3:00

Sorry, perhaps we can have the admins move this to a new thread?

That said I know I should wait till they do that, but I can't help myself. Well I probably could, but I don't want to.

Angie takes a 9mm to the chest, and practically drops. In volume seven a rifle round to the gut leaves Triela very dizzy. I don't think the skull can take much more then a .45, maybe .50 pistol cartridge. These rounds do damage, and with the volume of fire some of it is going get past the girls defenses. We've only ever seen a girl soak up something like 3-5 rounds at a time. They may be tough, but their not invisible.

Also I don't see the Fartello rolling around in a armored vehicles. The return on investment isn't there. That, and Jose rolls around in a convertible Ferrari. So even if some are armored, I think it's a rarity. If nothing else remove the cars. In volume seven Triela runs out of ammo taking on what 5 guys? Only two of which where decently armed. If the group had been a bit better trained, or better armed she might not have walked away.

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by West Nile on Sun 2 Mar 2008 - 3:09

There is a freak'in -my ideas on how to kill a cyborg - thread, use it!!!

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by Piero on Sun 2 Mar 2008 - 3:54

Hmmm... finding precise prices on specific models of armoured Mercedes isn't overly easy, but I may have really underestimated them. Apparently an armoured E Class can cost up to $250,000 (not including a so called 'AMG upgrade,' whatever that is), which is way more then an ordinary E Class. Of course, that price was contained in an answer that was given in response to a question about vehicles with a level six (presumably B6, which can take non AP 7.62x51mm) protection level rather then the B4 level of protection I'd read about on the factory armoured cars (which can take a .44 magnum round), so perhaps they were either a higher end model or a an aftermarket modification. Although the way it was phrased didn't seem to rule out the idea of it being an E Class with factory installed B4 protection entirely.

We've seen some of the handlers driving very nice cars, but most of them didn't look like the cost the equivalent of a quarter of a million dollars. (BTW, isn't Jose's car a Porsche Boxster? They're pricey, but far less so then a recent Ferrari would generally be.)

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 2 Mar 2008 - 7:38

@West Nile wrote:There is a freak'in -my ideas on how to kill a cyborg - thread, use it!!!
Your save the girls thread turned into a kill the girls thread. Ain't that a bitch...

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by West Nile on Sun 2 Mar 2008 - 7:41

thank god someone feels the same way. vol 9 shows some rays of light i think, but im not to sure, someone has to look it up.

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 2 Mar 2008 - 13:16

You die, she dies, everybody dies.
There is no solution to this, but plenty of shortcuts.

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by Tommygunner70 on Sun 2 Mar 2008 - 13:20

@Danjo3 wrote:
@West Nile wrote:There is a freak'in -my ideas on how to kill a cyborg - thread, use it!!!
Your save the girls thread turned into a kill the girls thread. Ain't that a bitch...

Aint that a bitch indeed.

@West Nile wrote:thank god someone feels the same way. vol 9 shows some rays of light i think, but im not to sure, someone has to look it up.

Lol, you just wait, I'll start punching out Scanlations soon. i am guessing towards Wednesday, but dont hold me to that, it might be before that, or after that.

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Re: There must be another way!!!!!

Post by Wileama on Sun 2 Mar 2008 - 17:12

@West Nile wrote:There is a freak'in -my ideas on how to kill a cyborg - thread, use it!!!
Oh yeah, there is hu...

My bad man, it was rude of me not to move my reply over to a different thread. I'll go ahead, and put my next post in How to Kill a Cyborg.

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