Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

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Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Guest on Fri 7 Mar 2008 - 7:40

So I've been thinking about this ever since it got raised in the 'to kill a cyborg' topic, and I've finally managed to formulate it into something satisfactory as a point/query, being...

Why, why in the world, would Section Two even bother with the second-generation cyborgs when they're patently inferior models?

- The first-generation cyborgs work so well because, well, they're children. They're small-framed, meaning less large components are needed and making them a difficult target for even a skilled gunslinger, especially given their speed and ability to absorb damage. Then there's the fact that it's some of the best cover ever: 'she's just a little girl.'

This is not true of the second-gens. They're adult-sized, so they need much larger components. They're much easier targets. And their cover? ...No. With the amount of mischief gotten into by even me as a mid-adolescent, I will tell you that teenagers are suspect. The only way the second-gens really make sense is if they're being primed as Terminator-like infiltrator models, but then you'd think that they'd just go with adults, and then it wouldn't be GSG, it'd be The Other Sarah Connor Chronicles or There's Not A Ghost Inside The Shell Yet, But We're Working On Getting It In There.


-Let's add to that the fact that the mind of an early-stage adolescent is a prime point to use the conditioning techniques-- especially given the linguistic acquisition device at this stage, and other such learning capabilities nestled in our frontal lobe. The brain's just matured, it's finally got the full sensorium and motor control and everything it needs. Everything's ready for the shift into adulthood-- it's essentially like having a blank piece of paper.

Conversely, the second-generations are all mid-adolescent teenagers, which is like...if I asked for paper and someone handed me a doodle they'd hastily erased, but most of the lines were clearly visible. The mid-adolescent's mind is much more resistant, AND they're a bloody mess of hormones! Good Lord, the SWA thought Elsa was bad, wait till they see high-school age drama!


-I...suppose it might work logically if they found that the stresses on the child model just couldn't be maintained, but this doesn't seem to be true. The closest that the child models have come to showing an integral design flaw is Angelica, and she's:
1.) the prototype, so of course she'll have more problems
2.) much more dependent on her implants thanks to the initial organic damage
3.) still completely combat viable at time of death, and she's showing progress in the memory-recovering department
Angelica is, far from being a case study in why the child-model cyborgs are irrevocably flawed, an example of the opposite: they're actually very resilient and quite reparable.


If Section Two was to funnel their obviously multi-million euro checks into R&D on the child models, they could, I'm sure, extend the girls' lifespans to...however long they wanted. They'd be permanent children, like Philippe in Achewood, and thanks to the SWA's brain-work, they could probably be kept from maturing too far in that department if that became a frustration/worry. Which means Italy retains a tremendous black-ops asset as long as it's willing to keep tossing checks the SWA's way.

But...for some reason, they aren't working on that. They're working on making inferior models, with (I think?) inferior components/protection, who are easier targets, need more extensive and harder-to-do conditioning, and probably even cost more. Why?


I realize it's a storytelling device, and a clever one, really, but it just...it doesn't make sense. So I open the floor to us to hypothesize/prattle/fanwank to our hearts' content about what possible reasons the SWA has to work on the second-gens.

My new working theory--they're not actually built for combat, Chief Lorenzo just demanded a harem from the Italian government and everyone is overreacting. >_>;

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by West Nile on Fri 7 Mar 2008 - 7:50

answer: read vol. 6 its there. 2nd gen girls are suppose to be able to live longer... if they don't get killed because of their weaknesses

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by LoC978 on Fri 7 Mar 2008 - 9:13

I'm still wondering just how long the stage one girls can stick around. Our initial assumption was somthing along the lines of a decade, but then... I can't remember where I read the lifespan of the stage twos is only 5-6 years (am I misremembering something?)... but in volume six, chapter 30, on page 88, it's mentioned that their lifespan is twice that of a stage one... yet Rico's been around two years by the start of the series, with Triela and Ange having been around longer than that.

...Perhaps their lifespans are more along the lines of 5-6 years for a stage one and 10-12 years for a stage two (assuming she doesn't get all shot up).

That really doesn't seem like a good trade-off for the amazing resilience of the stage ones, to me... even though they're supposed to just be assassins, not every operation can go to plan.
To quote Elizabeth Haydon (or rather, a character in her novels: Grunthor) in regards to entering combat: "Tuck your chin, kid. You're gonna get hurt."

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Guest on Fri 7 Mar 2008 - 10:11

It's an insanely terrible trade-off. The stage-twos...well to use an allegory, the stage-ones are a very fancy weapons system that works really well, but they last x number of years, say...5. For a given amount of money, you can purchase a weapons system that is worse in every regard, but lasts ten years. That's a stage-two.

This only is good, and makes sense to do, if there is no way to keep your current weapons system running that doesn't cost so much more money than you can afford. And in Section Two terms, that's in the billions, or trillions of euros. X_X

...Besides which, there's...there's really no indication that the "lifespan problem" can't be fixed. I suppose part of the problem is there's no indicator of what, exactly, is the determining factor in how long they live.

It could be the conditioning, but there's a lot of reasons that that's ridiculous:

1.) The conditioning, as stated, doesn't seem to degrade their combat viability at all, and its effects can be countered. Angelica is the living proof of all of this.
2.) The person they're worried about dying next is Triela, who has been kept on the absolute bare minimum. This doesn't make sense. If the conditioning is what kills them, then the next to die will be Rico, because the girl is conditioned to the friggin' eyeballs. It also makes Jean into someone who doesn't know how to use the tool he's been given properly...which...is that Jean? Really?
3.) ....The conditioning in the Gen-2s is so fucking extensive that they can't possibly have a longer lifespan. X____X Replacing a full adolescent's memories? Controlling their hormonal centers?! Uploading combat knowledge?!? You're talking about three times the normal conditioning level! @_@

And they've made it pretty clear that...well, everything else is reparable. When components need to be replaced, Section Two can replace them.

If they took the billions of euros it takes to make vapid teenage cyborgs and put it into maintaining the stage-ones, I'm sure they could extend their lifespan by at least the amount the Gen-2s have. Especially given that for the entire length of the show/manga, they've had the science team playing with Claes and her capabilities. These are brilliant scientists who are well-paid, and the best solution they can come up with is "replace them with worse models"? What the hell kind of R&D team is that? Jean needs to walk in there and slap the hell out of them, because they're not doing their job.

Finally, as LoC pointed out, Section Two knows better than anybody that no battle plan survives the first shots fired. All things being equal, maybe the stage-twos would last longer, but things aren't going to be equal. Padania's going to have a Goddamn field day...I mean, they're easier to identify, they're easier to hit, and when you kill a teenager, you can spin that. It's hard, but you can.

...You can't spin killing a child. You can try, but you'll just look like an ass.

The whole thing...I mean, they say that's why, but it doesn't make sense. :/

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by LoC978 on Fri 7 Mar 2008 - 10:29

Xenomorph Alpha wrote:2.) The person they're worried about dying next is Triela, who has been kept on the absolute bare minimum. This doesn't make sense. If the conditioning is what kills them, then the next to die will be Rico, because the girl is conditioned to the friggin' eyeballs. It also makes Jean into someone who doesn't know how to use the tool he's been given properly...which...is that Jean? Really?
Remember, though, that they're given massive doses of the 'miracle conditioning drug' for surgery. Triela is a front-line field operative, and gets injured pretty regularly. Not to mention the parts of her that need replacing occasionally just on general principle. I've always figured that Jean was more of the mindset that the girls are going to have the shit conditioned out of them by the docs every time they get injured, so why not keep her doped up and compliant? After all, it's a drop in the bucket next to surgery.
Xenomorph Alpha wrote:3.) ....The conditioning in the Gen-2s is so fucking extensive that they can't possibly have a longer lifespan. X____X Replacing a full adolescent's memories? Controlling their hormonal centers?! Uploading combat knowledge?!? You're talking about three times the normal conditioning level! @_@
It's mentioned somewhere (tm) that they use the same conditioning drug, but less of it... I think they've just gotten better at manipulating the brain through other means.
Xenomorph Alpha wrote:If they took the billions of euros it takes to make vapid teenage cyborgs and put it into maintaining the stage-ones, I'm sure they could extend their lifespan by at least the amount the Gen-2s have. Especially given that for the entire length of the show/manga, they've had the science team playing with Claes and her capabilities. These are brilliant scientists who are well-paid, and the best solution they can come up with is "replace them with worse models"? What the hell kind of R&D team is that? Jean needs to walk in there and slap the hell out of them, because they're not doing their job.
...
All things being equal, maybe the stage-twos would last longer, but things aren't going to be equal. Padania's going to have a Goddamn field day...I mean, they're easier to identify, they're easier to hit, and when you kill a teenager, you can spin that. It's hard, but you can.

...You can't spin killing a child. You can try, but you'll just look like an ass.

The whole thing...I mean, they say that's why, but it doesn't make sense. :/
can ah get an A-MEN?!

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Guest on Fri 7 Mar 2008 - 11:55

@LoC978 wrote: Remember, though, that they're given massive doses of the 'miracle conditioning drug' for surgery. Triela is a front-line field operative, and gets injured pretty regularly. Not to mention the parts of her that need replacing occasionally just on general principle. I've always figured that Jean was more of the mindset that the girls are going to have the shit conditioned out of them by the docs every time they get injured, so why not keep her doped up and compliant? After all, it's a drop in the bucket next to surgery.

It's mentioned somewhere (tm) that they use the same conditioning drug, but less of it... I think they've just gotten better at manipulating the brain through other means.

True, and her M1897 weapons choice doesn't help matters...nor does losing an eye...but if the drug's that much of a stressor you wouldn't think they'd use it. I mean, it's surgery, and even if normal anaesthetics don't work on cyborgs (which is just weird, but okay) the SWA can afford to shop around. I mean, what you really need is something that puts them to sleep while you dig around and replace their parts, right? Is that so hard to find? XD;

...As for that whole using the same...well...that's just weird, for one, and for two...uhm...they should implement that in the superior models. o.O; You know, the ones that live up to their selling points and all.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 7 Mar 2008 - 12:11

Second-generation cyborgs are, to me, an inexplicable retrograde step - less resilience to damage and no youth to use as perfect cover for the cybernetic killing machine within hardly sounds charming.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Sintendo on Fri 7 Mar 2008 - 15:54

I always thought it was to save resources (Money, man power/hours, etc.)

Wasn't it mentioned that Second-gens were easier to make, train, and maintain...?


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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 7 Mar 2008 - 17:41

Dont confuse the fact that Petra is the oldest girl but the youngest cyborg as the reason why they are using 'adults' or older girls for the type 2 cyborg series. Elizabeta was choosen for reasons only known to Yuey (yeah- that's, my new name for him!), but one can speculate the following:
1- She was easy to obtain, a former ballerina who committed suicide at a hospital after loss of her leg from bone cancer.
2- The SWA was looking for a subject for their Type 2 program, she was ripe for the pickings.
3- Elizabeta was in the best of physical shape, being a trained ballerina. Lossing her leg, she wanted to no longer exist- best prime condictioning candidate right there!
4- There are other cyborgs as of chapter 9 shown- all younger than Petra, and most can be type 2 cyborgs.

As for Type 2's vs Type 1's; cheaper to make, less dependant on condictioning meds. But they are not the all out killing machines that the Type 1's are. I think the SWA will be producing both for a while as they figure out what teams go to what missions. An example of this would be an off shoot of the the Hillshire/Triela Team where such a 'bring'em back alive' missions would not require a full-out killing machine cyborg like Triela.

As for the issues facing Triela herself, lets not forget that she had to undergo a full rebuild due to her last fight with Pino. Sure, she won, but look at the damage she sustained (See end of Chapter 27 of Chapter 5)! As shown with Henrietta in both the first and second episodes and mangas, even the slightest wound requires surgery and parts replacement. Triela had to have undergone a total build of her body. She also sustained damage in the mission where she protected the Prosecutor Rachel. With each repair surgery, as stated in Henrietta repair, the cyborgs must have an increased dose of the condictioning meds. Though only temporary, this is something to look into.

Chapter 10 looks like Hillshire too Triela for a time out, though they were on mission. He did not want his cyborg to face further damage so he took it on himself. I would not be happy if Triela has to die. I'm still upset at Angie dying.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 7 Mar 2008 - 17:47

Those other Stage Two cyborgs don't look any younger than Petra, if you ask me.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 7 Mar 2008 - 18:02

As I see it, they can be anywhere from 13 to Petra's 16.
Girls can develop from age 8 on up, so where they look and stand on their develop in totally on the individual. Which it takes to stand, that Rico's 13, but is also a Type 1, so her development has been halted or slowed down. But can you image Rico with a huge set of knockers in the next year to so? Triela was 'aged' in her mission to protect the Prosector Rachel- and she looked hot!

As for my OC; my Rachel is 13, but already has a better build than Petra, though is a lot shorter... (Damn it- I got to finish that chapter and post it on FF.net!)

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by West Nile on Fri 7 Mar 2008 - 22:29

then i just go back to my point in my fic Chocolates & Bullets. the 2nd gen is bugged! someone wheel in the 3rd gen!

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Utsurokuri on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 0:24

Really I guess it's depends on the mission objective for assassinations you would use the First generation because they have more armor to take damage while Second Generations are used for more of a bodyguard type of scenario since they are supposedly faster.

If the Second generation cyborg have longer life that is probably because less modifications done to them as in they keep them as human as possible so they live longer.
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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Guest on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 2:29

@ElfenMagix wrote:As for Type 2's vs Type 1's; cheaper to make, less dependant on condictioning meds. But they are not the all out killing machines that the Type 1's are. I think the SWA will be producing both for a while as they figure out what teams go to what missions. An example of this would be an off shoot of the the Hillshire/Triela Team where such a 'bring'em back alive' missions would not require a full-out killing machine cyborg like Triela.

As for the issues facing Triela herself, lets not forget that she had to undergo a full rebuild due to her last fight with Pino. Sure, she won, but look at the damage she sustained (See end of Chapter 27 of Chapter 5)! As shown with Henrietta in both the first and second episodes and mangas, even the slightest wound requires surgery and parts replacement. Triela had to have undergone a total rebuild of her body. She also sustained damage in the mission where she protected the Prosecutor Rachel. With each repair surgery, as stated in Henrietta repair, the cyborgs must have an increased dose of the condictioning meds. Though only temporary, this is something to look into.

Chapter 10 looks like Hillshire too Triela for a time out, though they were on mission. He did not want his cyborg to face further damage so he took it on himself. I would not be happy if Triela has to die. I'm still upset at Angie dying.

Hell, I'm going to honestly shed tears if either Triela or Hillshire dies. It'd be too damn sad. ;_; Hillshire dies=what does Triela really have anymore? and Triela dies=Hillshire loses the one person he's alive for.

As for the whole Gen-2s being cheaper...See, I don't buy that. Razz It doesn't make sense unless the Gen-2s are much less actual cyborg parts, and then...well then you've really sacrificed on both form and function, haven't you? You've created an inferior model that not only is easier to hit, and harder to care about, they can't do their jobs as well as the Gen-1s. Again...x_x;...I'd expect Jean to be going apoplectic on the R&D guys for their dismal, dismal failure.

That and someone should point out to at least Bianchi, whose love of the Gen-1s is well-known, that they could always implement this apparently less damaging conditioning routine into the Gen-1s and extend their lifespan while he figures out a way to:

1.) counteract the already...I'm still really iffy on how bad the conditioning actually is for them. Angie didn't die because of the conditioning, she died from an exploding truck and damage that was too extensive to repair. Unless I'm wrong. X_X --anyway, Bianchi can fix this! He's our man! If he can't do it...then...Rico will shoot him. >_>;
2.) Figure out a NORMAL anaesthetic that works on the younger cyborgs.

...I suppose they could just be making the Gen-2s as, essentially, cannon fodder, but...

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 3:06

Go easy on Bianchi - he's a nice guy. It's Gilliani who deserves the backside full of buckshot.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Danjo3 on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 3:15

I’m just going with the oblivious answer – Yu wanted to add fan service. Maybe in vol.10, he’ll show the gen2’s having a naked pillow fight.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by West Nile on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 3:28

You'd think the SWA would waste good pillows for that. 2nd gen girls will probably be washing the cars.... with white shirts on... without underwear... imagine if they got wet!

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Danjo3 on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 4:00

It’s strange, but when the gen2’s train in hand-to-hand combat, they’re wearing bikini’s and are covered in Wesson oil.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Guest on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 4:07

...See, this just provides fuel to my theory that the Gen-2s are (in plot terms) Lorenzo's private harem. He just hasn't told Jean yet. XD

Jean keeps wondering why, why these new girls need that Wesson oil, it's not going to make CQC any easier, and why it is the budget readouts say that €23,000 was spent on car-washing materials, bikinis and pillows.

Poor Jean's oblivious to a lot, really, it's similar to how he still hasn't figured out why it is Hillshire and Triela keep coming back late from missions, and why if it was a stakeout, both of them are sweating, red in the face, and panting like they just ran a mile. XD

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 4:13

@Danjo3 wrote:It’s strange, but when the gen2’s train in hand-to-hand combat, they’re wearing bikini’s and are covered in Wesson oil.

And we haven't even brought up the cream corn wrestling yet.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Danjo3 on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 5:04

Xenomorph Alpha wrote:Poor Jean's oblivious to a lot, really, it's similar to how he still hasn't figured out why it is Hillshire and Triela keep coming back late from missions, and why if it was a stakeout, both of them are sweating, red in the face, and panting like they just ran a mile. XD
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Natchsider wrote:And we haven't even brought up the cream corn wrestling yet.
:lollol: None of the original girls can figure out why their handlers are taking such a keen interest in the gen2’s training.

Except for Triela – she figures anything that gets Hillshire’s motor running is a good thing.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by West Nile on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 5:21

@Danjo3 wrote:
Xenomorph Alpha wrote:Poor Jean's oblivious to a lot, really, it's similar to how he still hasn't figured out why it is Hillshire and Triela keep coming back late from missions, and why if it was a stakeout, both of them are sweating, red in the face, and panting like they just ran a mile. XD
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Natchsider wrote:And we haven't even brought up the cream corn wrestling yet.
:lollol: None of the original girls can figure out why their handlers are taking such a keen interest in the gen2’s training.

Except for Triela – she figures anything that gets Hillshire’s motor running is a good thing.

If Hillshire get's a hand mark in his face it's probably because he moaned the wrong name when he was on a "mission" with her

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 5:31

Whose name? Giuseppe's?

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Danjo3 on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 5:37

@West Nile wrote:If Hillshire get's a hand mark in his face it's probably because he moaned the wrong name when he was on a "mission" with her
I think he would get a lot more then a slap for that. And God help him if he did it while Triela was going **** on him.

Was that censored enough? Any feedback would be appreciated.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 5:42

It's a fact of life that censoring only breeds curiosity.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Guest on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 5:51

@Danjo3 wrote:
Xenomorph Alpha wrote:Poor Jean's oblivious to a lot, really, it's similar to how he still hasn't figured out why it is Hillshire and Triela keep coming back late from missions, and why if it was a stakeout, both of them are sweating, red in the face, and panting like they just ran a mile. XD
Sounds like you read my story. Very Happy
Natchsider wrote:And we haven't even brought up the cream corn wrestling yet.
:lollol: None of the original girls can figure out why their handlers are taking such a keen interest in the gen2’s training.

Except for Triela – she figures anything that gets Hillshire’s motor running is a good thing.

Oh maybe just a wee~ bit. XD >_> also my already disturbing love of Triela x Hillshire played a factor. XD The story was excellent, though. *bow*

...*head-tilt, fade into scene...*

Jean: All right! Now we're going to practice the suplex hold...which would be a lot easier if you would put down the JELL-O and stop giggling... -_-;;;

Gen-2s: *standard laughter, tittering, shrieks, etc*

Jean: ....-_-;;; Right. Uh, Hillshire, Triela, maybe you can help demonstr--

Hillshire: No! No no no! Uh, Triela has...uh...a...loose...cyber...ligament. *>_>*

Triela: *is taking notes on what some of the Gen-2s are doing* Very loose. We have to go get it realigned.

Hillshire: Yes. Right...right now. Come on, Triela, let's go realign our brains out. *>_>*

Triela: *^_^* Oh yes let's. *yoinks him away*

Jean: o_O;...I'd better ask Bianchi about this cyber-ligament problem...it's getting serious...come to think of it, isn't that why Rico and that Israeli boy had to skip yesterday? @_@

@Danjo3 wrote:
@West Nile wrote:If Hillshire get's a hand mark in his face it's probably because he moaned the wrong name when he was on a "mission" with her
I think he would get a lot more then a slap for that. And God help him if he did it while Triela was going **** on him.

Was that censored enough? Any feedback would be appreciated.

...oh dear Lord talk about not a way you want to test cyborg jaw strength.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 5:53

Xenomorph Alpha wrote:Come to think of it, isn't that why Rico and that Israeli boy had to skip yesterday?

A plug! A plug! Yahoo!

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Danjo3 on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 6:08

Xenomorph Alpha wrote:Oh maybe just a wee~ bit. XD >_> also my already disturbing love of Triela x Hillshire played a factor. XD The story was excellent, though. *bow*
Thanks Alpha. It’s nice to think of Triela as a girl who knows what she wants and goe’s after it.
Xenomorph Alpha wrote:Jean: ....-_-;;; Right. Uh, Hillshire, Triela, maybe you can help demonstr--

Hillshire: No! No no no! Uh, Triela has...uh...a...loose...cyber...ligament. *>_>*

Triela: *is taking notes on what some of the Gen-2s are doing* Very loose. We have to go get it realigned.

Hillshire: Yes. Right...right now. Come on, Triela, let's go realign our brains out. *>_>*

Triela: *^_^* Oh yes let's. *yoinks him away*
Laughing That is Epic-Funny!

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by West Nile on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 6:18

too bad Triela & Hillshire aren't like Henrietta & Joze, i wouldn't mind some fan-service between those two

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Danjo3 on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 6:30

@West Nile wrote:too bad Triela & Hillshire aren't like Henrietta & Joze, i wouldn't mind some fan-service between those two
That always struck me as kind of creepy – even though I hooked them up in another one of my stories. But in my defense, she was a little older…

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Wileama on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 8:42

I've allowed this thread to progress far too long without posting in it. So much to say so little time.

Okay first the second gens make a lot of sense cash wise. If the average second gen can live as twice as long as a the average first gen. That means you would have to build two first gens to cover the same period of time, a second gen could cover. It's already been established that a second gen is much cheaper then a first gen. So your saving over half the money you would have spent on the two first gens, for one second gen.

You should actually get more up time as well. You'll have to train two cyborgs, as opposed to one. You'll have a handler who loses their cyborg, and my not be willing, or capable of doing another round. So the second gen girl is a much much better return on investment.

The SWA doesn't have an unlimited budget. Their resources are finite. There is nothing to suggest the Italian government is willing to throw this much money around for long. The SWA is not some minor expenditure, I'm sure you could fun some really nice stuff with the money their spending. It's also pretty risky. If this ever comes to light, while anyone involved in it is still alive, you can bet their fucked. Using children as assassins to kill citizens is not going to wash with the public, ever.

Lets face it, what the SWA does could probably be done by a human group like Section One. More importantly it could be done for MUCH less money. The real return on the SWA is the development of cyborg tech, not killing terrorists. Italy has become a leader in medical technology thanks to the SWA. I can only imagine what that's doing for the economy. There are also benefits for the common folk, like that amputee kid in volume 9.

More importantly this technology obviously has military applications. Having soldiers that don't need body armor, that don't feel pain, obey orders without question. That's some generals wet dream right there. The military often develops technology incrementally. Take the space program's developmental cycle to get to the moon. They took 'small' steps, and learned from it, until they reached their final goal. They sent a man into space. Then the put a man in orbit. Then they docked in space. Then they did an EVA. Then they orbited the moon. Only then did they finally land on the moon.

That's the kind of developmental path the cyborgs are taking. The final goal is to use them in full grown adults with little to no ill effects, and cheap enough to apply to an army. The first generation was to see if they could make a cyborg. So they choose the simplest subjects they could, children. They looked at the results. Terribly expensive, short life cycle. Well those aren't the results they ultimately want. So the next generation is looking to improve those goals. While their at it, why not start developing some of the tools they'll need for older individuals. Thus the move up to teenagers. Is it perfect, no. However the cutting edge, is the bleeding edge.

Besides, the second generation has other advantages. You see a lone 10 year old standing on a street corner during the middle of the night, and your going to have questions. Why what if a police officer rolled up to help the lost little girl, just as the target was approaching? Okay now you've got to kill this cop, who is totally attraction even more attention your way. There are some places where a child is bad choice as an assassin; bars, night clubs, seedy places late a night, strip clubs. While a teenager can fit into of those places. In general teenagers draw more suspicion, but they can blend in more easily. Standing out can be just as much a problem, if not worse for an assassin.

Besides until the SWA rolled around assassinations where carried out by adults, almost exclusively. So you know what, you can still kill people if your an adult. Petra certainly seems to be doing a decent job.

One last matter on the first gen vs second gen. It may not be possible to apply the second gen conditioning to the first gen girls. Conditioning is kind of a fuzzy grey area to begin with. There may be a substantial difference in how the second gen girls are conditioned compared to the first gen girls. This may prevent the application of the updated conditioning to the younger girls without a complete rewrite. Or it may not. The first gen girls may in fact be benefiting from the advances being made. That wouldn't stop me from phasing out construction of first generation models.

Also :lollol: to the :pedolol: stuff.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 18:17

@Nachtsider wrote:Go easy on Bianchi - he's a nice guy. It's Gilliani who deserves the backside full of buckshot.
Though Biancho takes care some of the medical needs of the cyborgs, he is just a psychiatrist. Gilliani needs to be tied up and have a rubber Pinocchino mask glued to his face and release him in the compound. Then send Triela after him!

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 18:23

I'd rather sic Rico on him. There's no-one like Rico to have around you when someone needs beating up.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 18:25

@Danjo3 wrote:
@West Nile wrote:If Hillshire get's a hand mark in his face it's probably because he moaned the wrong name when he was on a "mission" with her
I think he would get a lot more then a slap for that. And God help him if he did it while Triela was going **** on him.

Was that censored enough? Any feedback would be appreciated.
And who's name would that be?
Scenero 1 wrote:Hillshire: Oh yes, thats it, 'Etta!
Triela: What was that?!!!

Scenero 2 wrote:Hillshire: Oh yes, thats it, Jose`!
Triela: THATS IT!

Triela takes out her gun and shoots him dead right there.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Thanatos on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 21:08

Hahahahaha.

Wow, i had a good laugh there. Nice one Elfen.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by West Nile on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 22:37

@Wileama wrote:I've allowed this thread to progress far too long without posting in it. So much to say so little time.

Okay first the second gens make a lot of sense cash wise. If the average second gen can live as twice as long as a the average first gen. That means you would have to build two first gens to cover the same period of time, a second gen could cover. It's already been established that a second gen is much cheaper then a first gen. So your saving over half the money you would have spent on the two first gens, for one second gen.

You should actually get more up time as well. You'll have to train two cyborgs, as opposed to one. You'll have a handler who loses their cyborg, and my not be willing, or capable of doing another round. So the second gen girl is a much much better return on investment.

The SWA doesn't have an unlimited budget. Their resources are finite. There is nothing to suggest the Italian government is willing to throw this much money around for long. The SWA is not some minor expenditure, I'm sure you could fun some really nice stuff with the money their spending. It's also pretty risky. If this ever comes to light, while anyone involved in it is still alive, you can bet their fucked. Using children as assassins to kill citizens is not going to wash with the public, ever.

Lets face it, what the SWA does could probably be done by a human group like Section One. More importantly it could be done for MUCH less money. The real return on the SWA is the development of cyborg tech, not killing terrorists. Italy has become a leader in medical technology thanks to the SWA. I can only imagine what that's doing for the economy. There are also benefits for the common folk, like that amputee kid in volume 9.

More importantly this technology obviously has military applications. Having soldiers that don't need body armor, that don't feel pain, obey orders without question. That's some generals wet dream right there. The military often develops technology incrementally. Take the space program's developmental cycle to get to the moon. They took 'small' steps, and learned from it, until they reached their final goal. They sent a man into space. Then the put a man in orbit. Then they docked in space. Then they did an EVA. Then they orbited the moon. Only then did they finally land on the moon.

That's the kind of developmental path the cyborgs are taking. The final goal is to use them in full grown adults with little to no ill effects, and cheap enough to apply to an army. The first generation was to see if they could make a cyborg. So they choose the simplest subjects they could, children. They looked at the results. Terribly expensive, short life cycle. Well those aren't the results they ultimately want. So the next generation is looking to improve those goals. While their at it, why not start developing some of the tools they'll need for older individuals. Thus the move up to teenagers. Is it perfect, no. However the cutting edge, is the bleeding edge.

Besides, the second generation has other advantages. You see a lone 10 year old standing on a street corner during the middle of the night, and your going to have questions. Why what if a police officer rolled up to help the lost little girl, just as the target was approaching? Okay now you've got to kill this cop, who is totally attraction even more attention your way. There are some places where a child is bad choice as an assassin; bars, night clubs, seedy places late a night, strip clubs. While a teenager can fit into of those places. In general teenagers draw more suspicion, but they can blend in more easily. Standing out can be just as much a problem, if not worse for an assassin.

Besides until the SWA rolled around assassinations where carried out by adults, almost exclusively. So you know what, you can still kill people if your an adult. Petra certainly seems to be doing a decent job.

One last matter on the first gen vs second gen. It may not be possible to apply the second gen conditioning to the first gen girls. Conditioning is kind of a fuzzy grey area to begin with. There may be a substantial difference in how the second gen girls are conditioned compared to the first gen girls. This may prevent the application of the updated conditioning to the younger girls without a complete rewrite. Or it may not. The first gen girls may in fact be benefiting from the advances being made. That wouldn't stop me from phasing out construction of first generation models.

Also :lollol: to the :pedolol: stuff.

So everything is just for money?

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 22:44

*sings* It's all about the money... it's all about the dum-dum-da-da-da-dum...

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by West Nile on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 22:49

come to think of it, less funds means less taxes equal happy citizens. yay for Italia

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Wileama on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 22:51

Wow, you quoted the entire thing for a single sentence reply?

I wouldn't discount the money factor. It is a big deal when you can save at least 50% of a multi-billion Euro budget. However I think your glossing over the fact that the second gens are stepping stones to mass militarization of this tech. There are some other fringe benefits, but those where my two big points.

I just think those are really good points. That, and I think I did some really good writing to support it. Not that I would ever honk my own horn like that. Razz

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 22:51

@West Nile wrote:come to think of it, less funds means less taxes equal happy citizens. yay for Italia

It's debatable, really, if all those funds come from the taxpayers alone.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Wileama on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 22:54

The SWA looks like a government only operation. Who else would be give the Italian government money, besides the tax payers?

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 22:59

Slush funds from illegal arms sales, for one.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by West Nile on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 23:34

*throws some bills into the air*
money makes the world go round!
*pushes people who try to get the bills on the floor*

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 9 Mar 2008 - 1:48

@ElfenMagix wrote:
Scenero 1 wrote:Hillshire: Oh yes, thats it, 'Etta!
Triela: What was that?!!!
I think a certain little cyborg is getting some on the job training before her first mission with her handler.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Wileama on Sun 9 Mar 2008 - 6:40

@Nachtsider wrote:Slush funds from illegal arms sales, for one.
You mean stealing taking what ever money the terrorists had? I suppose they might see some revenue from that. However I wouldn't expect it to be more then a drop in the bucket. Guns can be pretty cheap. Besides it's not something you can depend on. Thus it's not something the SWA would expect to receive. Also the government might want it for the good of the people.

I sense now is not the time to be leaving for the airport.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Guest on Mon 10 Mar 2008 - 3:39

Well...possibly that and such under-the-table deals, yes, but on a more serious note as to who'd be giving Italy money? The European Union. Especially if they were going to implement this nice little technological breakthrough within the EU, once they had it down pat...and since the south remains poor...the EU likes helping out its poorer nations. Witness Ireland. >_>

And you only have to build two Generation-One cyborgs to cover the same amount of time a Gen-Two can if you refuse to upkeep/maintain the Generation-One. Which, as noted, the R&D people seem to be doing...and, y'know, I suppose it does make a certain degree of sense, but it's a little like scrapping an F-14 because it's not an F-22A...and while a military often develops technology incrementally, they also don't throw away things that work. So...yes. Fuck you, Dr. Gilliani, you need to be replaced.

Though I must admit, the idea that this is really incremental technology-development...makes the most sense. Depressing as it is. ;_;

It still seems to me like the Gen-Twos are less capable-- they ought to be up to performance specs established by the Ones, and they aren't. There's also the fact that they ain't cheaper, not by a long shot. They need bigger implants/smaller but more-expensive due to their new design implants, unless you're going to make them less cybernetic and really just screw your tech development altogether. Razz

...However, what you note, Wileama, gives me hope! ^o^ Perhaps they're only phasing out the production of first-generation types, and they intend to keep our favorite little weapons around as the battlewagons they are. Yes. This makes sense!

*...lives inside shell of blissful, blissful ignorance of the fact that is almost certainly not true*

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 10 Mar 2008 - 3:50

The Gen-2's could be churned out for the BDSM market. The advantages of having such durable and strong units for such purposes is obvious.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Guest on Mon 10 Mar 2008 - 13:38

@Nachtsider wrote:The Gen-2's could be churned out for the BDSM market. The advantages of having such durable and strong units for such purposes is obvious.

....Damn it, now I can imagine Alessandro in leather. And also spikes. ;_; It's so wrong. There's nothing right about it. Must...focus...on Petra in small leather harness....X___X;;;

@Danjo3 wrote:
@ElfenMagix wrote:
Scenero 1 wrote:Hillshire: Oh yes, thats it, 'Etta!
Triela: What was that?!!!
I think a certain little cyborg is getting some on the job training before her first mission with her handler.

Oh you people, Hillshire would know it's Triela! Razz No one else has built-in handles!

*facepalm*...I just got my mind out of the gutter and they pull me back in. X_X;;;

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 10 Mar 2008 - 18:59

Xenomorph Alpha wrote:
@Danjo3 wrote:
@ElfenMagix wrote:
Scenero 1 wrote:Hillshire: Oh yes, thats it, 'Etta!
Triela: What was that?!!!
I think a certain little cyborg is getting some on the job training before her first mission with her handler.

Oh you people, Hillshire would know it's Triela! Razz No one else has built-in handles!

*facepalm*...I just got my mind out of the gutter and they pull me back in. X_X;;;
Handles? You something I dont?
Or are you referring to the famous Sesame Street where Grove calls Maria's ears as Head Handles! Laughing

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Guest on Mon 10 Mar 2008 - 22:35

XDDD Well as long as we are firmly entrenched in the gutter, I referenced the twin-tails of the Princess' hair. >_> Cause, y'know...yeah. I'm going to leave that for you people to run with. XD;

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

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