Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 22:59

Slush funds from illegal arms sales, for one.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by West Nile on Sat 8 Mar 2008 - 23:34

*throws some bills into the air*
money makes the world go round!
*pushes people who try to get the bills on the floor*

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 9 Mar 2008 - 1:48

ElfenMagix wrote:
Scenero 1 wrote:Hillshire: Oh yes, thats it, 'Etta!
Triela: What was that?!!!
I think a certain little cyborg is getting some on the job training before her first mission with her handler.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Wileama on Sun 9 Mar 2008 - 6:40

Nachtsider wrote:Slush funds from illegal arms sales, for one.
You mean stealing taking what ever money the terrorists had? I suppose they might see some revenue from that. However I wouldn't expect it to be more then a drop in the bucket. Guns can be pretty cheap. Besides it's not something you can depend on. Thus it's not something the SWA would expect to receive. Also the government might want it for the good of the people.

I sense now is not the time to be leaving for the airport.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Guest on Mon 10 Mar 2008 - 3:39

Well...possibly that and such under-the-table deals, yes, but on a more serious note as to who'd be giving Italy money? The European Union. Especially if they were going to implement this nice little technological breakthrough within the EU, once they had it down pat...and since the south remains poor...the EU likes helping out its poorer nations. Witness Ireland. >_>

And you only have to build two Generation-One cyborgs to cover the same amount of time a Gen-Two can if you refuse to upkeep/maintain the Generation-One. Which, as noted, the R&D people seem to be doing...and, y'know, I suppose it does make a certain degree of sense, but it's a little like scrapping an F-14 because it's not an F-22A...and while a military often develops technology incrementally, they also don't throw away things that work. So...yes. Fuck you, Dr. Gilliani, you need to be replaced.

Though I must admit, the idea that this is really incremental technology-development...makes the most sense. Depressing as it is. ;_;

It still seems to me like the Gen-Twos are less capable-- they ought to be up to performance specs established by the Ones, and they aren't. There's also the fact that they ain't cheaper, not by a long shot. They need bigger implants/smaller but more-expensive due to their new design implants, unless you're going to make them less cybernetic and really just screw your tech development altogether. Razz

...However, what you note, Wileama, gives me hope! ^o^ Perhaps they're only phasing out the production of first-generation types, and they intend to keep our favorite little weapons around as the battlewagons they are. Yes. This makes sense!

*...lives inside shell of blissful, blissful ignorance of the fact that is almost certainly not true*

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 10 Mar 2008 - 3:50

The Gen-2's could be churned out for the BDSM market. The advantages of having such durable and strong units for such purposes is obvious.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Guest on Mon 10 Mar 2008 - 13:38

Nachtsider wrote:The Gen-2's could be churned out for the BDSM market. The advantages of having such durable and strong units for such purposes is obvious.

....Damn it, now I can imagine Alessandro in leather. And also spikes. ;_; It's so wrong. There's nothing right about it. Must...focus...on Petra in small leather harness....X___X;;;

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ElfenMagix wrote:
Scenero 1 wrote:Hillshire: Oh yes, thats it, 'Etta!
Triela: What was that?!!!
I think a certain little cyborg is getting some on the job training before her first mission with her handler.

Oh you people, Hillshire would know it's Triela! Razz No one else has built-in handles!

*facepalm*...I just got my mind out of the gutter and they pull me back in. X_X;;;

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 10 Mar 2008 - 18:59

Xenomorph Alpha wrote:
Danjo3 wrote:
ElfenMagix wrote:
Scenero 1 wrote:Hillshire: Oh yes, thats it, 'Etta!
Triela: What was that?!!!
I think a certain little cyborg is getting some on the job training before her first mission with her handler.

Oh you people, Hillshire would know it's Triela! Razz No one else has built-in handles!

*facepalm*...I just got my mind out of the gutter and they pull me back in. X_X;;;
Handles? You something I dont?
Or are you referring to the famous Sesame Street where Grove calls Maria's ears as Head Handles! Laughing

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Guest on Mon 10 Mar 2008 - 22:35

XDDD Well as long as we are firmly entrenched in the gutter, I referenced the twin-tails of the Princess' hair. >_> Cause, y'know...yeah. I'm going to leave that for you people to run with. XD;

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 11 Mar 2008 - 10:31

Xenomorph Alpha wrote:XDDD Well as long as we are firmly entrenched in the gutter, I referenced the twin-tails of the Princess' hair. >_> Cause, y'know...yeah. I'm going to leave that for you people to run with. XD;
OH! Those things!!!
I thought they would be used for Hillshire's renditions of 'The 7 Knots of Love' :face:
*ducks and then runs*

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Danjo3 on Tue 11 Mar 2008 - 12:33

Xenomorph Alpha wrote:XDDD Well as long as we are firmly entrenched in the gutter, I referenced the twin-tails of the Princess' hair. >_> Cause, y'know...yeah. I'm going to leave that for you people to run with. XD;
Im surprised no one has commented on what nice reins they would make. Giddy up, Triela!

Sorry, I couldn't resist...

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 11 Mar 2008 - 12:35

Somehow, I get the impression that Triela would be the one doing the riding.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Danjo3 on Wed 12 Mar 2008 - 4:10

Nachtsider wrote:Somehow, I get the impression that Triela would be the one doing the riding.
Maybe theres more to Victor then meets the eye. Under the cool, stoic faade there could be a smothering volcano. He maybe just the man to tame that little filly.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 14 Mar 2008 - 18:32

Lets hope that he does not end up like 'Client #9'

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Danjo3 on Sat 15 Mar 2008 - 2:35

ElfenMagix wrote:Lets hope that he does not end up like 'Client #9'
I dont think the Princess would be too happy to find out ol Victor was taking that route especially at $4,300 a pop.

Triela: You bastard! I would have done it for half that!

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Wileama on Fri 28 Mar 2008 - 22:19

Xenomorph Alpha wrote:And you only have to build two Generation-One cyborgs to cover the same amount of time a Gen-Two can if you refuse to upkeep/maintain the Generation-One.
I don't see how you get that. Maintain the first generation is what is actually responsible for the death. Replacing limbs, healing damage that seems to be a major source of conditioning for the girls. I can't remember where it was say, but it's specifically stated that second generation cyborgs should live twice as long. Even if that's not how it works in real life, any real increase will make a big difference money wise.

Xenomorph Alpha wrote:but it's a little like scrapping an F-14 because it's not an F-22A...and while a military often develops technology incrementally, they also don't throw away things that work.
Yeah, but the military develops stuff more slowly. Most military hardware development is measured by decades. Also they can keep the old stuff working for a longer period of time. The army doesn't get new tanks anymore. Instead the just completely rebuild what they already have. It saves a lot of money that way. I don't think we've built a new B-52 since the seventies, if not sixties. You can't do that with a cyborg. When a cyborgy reaches the end of it's life cycle, it dies. You have to get your self a brand new cyborg. That is expensive. So it does make sense to phase out the first generation girls.

Xenomorph Alpha wrote:There's also the fact that they ain't cheaper, not by a long shot. They need bigger implants/smaller but more-expensive due to their new design implants, unless you're going to make them less cybernetic and really just screw your tech development altogether. Razz
Err... What? Size shouldn't make that big a difference in terms of cost. Besides developing methods, and implants that allow for longer cyborg life cycles isn't exactly a set back tech wise. The question is what kind of tech do you want to develop? The answer seems to be: Something the SWA can fund without bankrupting the nation, longer life, and older subjects. Those are all impressive accomplishments in their own right.

Xenomorph Alpha wrote:...However, what you note, Wileama, gives me hope! ^o^ Perhaps they're only phasing out the production of first-generation types, and they intend to keep our favorite little weapons around as the battlewagons they are. Yes. This makes sense!
That seems to be exactly what they seem intent on doing. I never took it to mean anything else.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 2 Nov 2008 - 18:23

In general, I find myself in agreement with Wileama.

From what little we have been shown, it looks like within Public Safety, Section 1 handles the acquisition and research on targets and then Section 2 is sent to eliminate them. We know Draghi isn't too thrilled with either the idea of the cyborgs or that Section 2 "handles the killing" to quote Pietro in Chapter 4.

It is possible that the use of older cyborgs was done to give Section 2 some of the capabilities of Section 1. Petra has been used on reconnaissance and infiltration missions and her age and more physical development makes it easier for her to look older (early 20's). Henrietta is never going to pass for a girl older then about 12-13 no matter how you dress her up. She's just too small. Though Triela in a business suit and skirt could almost pass for 19-20 (Chapters 36+37).
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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Guest on Fri 12 Dec 2008 - 18:49

Well, the 2nd generation cyborgs are not so efficient killing machine as the first generation ones? One should wonder if the 2nd generation purpose is, actually, to replace the first one...

What I think, rather, is that the second generation is there to provide, in a near future, more resilient "fratelli" for the field... the "fratelli" being the only true weak point of first generation cyborgs, it could be a smart move to develop cyborgs that can act in their place. Obviously, the "fratelli" would be the last to know this further development.

Also, I agree that the economical fallback of developing the technology for older, more thought independent cyborg, would probably be enough to prompt the development of the 2nd generation per se.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 12 Dec 2008 - 18:56

First off, welcome woongah!

The manga does note that while the Series 2 will not be as strong as the Series 1, they will still be strong enough to kill. I assume this means that they can kill with their bare hands (break necks, most likely).

The manga also states a goal of the Series 2 program is to learn how to commercialize the technology and make it available for teens and adults. And that they hope the reduced use of conditioning will result in a longer lifespan so more data on how the implants and augmentation works.

I do agree with you that the fratelli are part of the problem. When Alessandro and Louis are driving back after seeing the girl who will become Petrushka, Louis notes that the handlers are part of the problem - being ex-military and ex-police, they are too moral and they tend to not socialize with their cyborgs. Hence why the Series 2 handlers were chosen from other fields (Alessandro himself was in intelligence and espionage with Public Safety).
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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Guest on Sun 21 Dec 2008 - 4:25

I'm in agreement with Wileama in this as well. The cyborgization technology - as employed in the first-generation models - is simply not cost-effective unless the agency had long-term programmatic goals in mind from the start. By comparison, upkeep costs for a conventional Special Forces unit would come out to between ten to twenty thousand Euros a year to a head. Maybe fifty grand if we're talking private contractors.

SWA Cyborgs on the other hand, would have general R&D costs in the hundreds of millions, if not billions of Euros, with each unit costing millions to apply the procedure on.... and millions more just to maintain each one. At that rate, you could afford to have a brigade-strength private army of "ordinary" spec-ops soldiers for ten years. I sincerely doubt that a number of Section 2's kids small enough to be counted on both hands could match the equivalent strength of thousands of elite soldiers. These aren't UNSC SPARTAN-IIs we're talking about.

To put this in perspective, SPARTAN-IIs are highly intelligent (we're talking genius-level intellect), experienced, resourceful operators, capable of operating independently of any command structure for extended periods. Even though they're only about fifteen percent cyborg (Electronically-Augmented CNS), compared to the GSGs' eighty percent (Artificial Eyes, Skin, Muscle, Skeletal Structure and probably Artificial Blood, leaving behind only the original brain and most of the internal organs), they're more than a match for GSGs without the power armor.

With
the shielded power armor, a SPARTAN-II can resist over a half-dozen fifty-cal AP rounds to the head, flip over vehicles weighing several metric tons and cave in the sternums of three-meter tall giant alien monsters with the butts of their rifles. The GSGs can't do that. Even though they can mostly resist thirty-cal and below to anywhere but the eyes, I'm not so sure that they can take explosive or anti-material rounds. Also, while they're very strong, they're not super-strong. I estimate their grip and lifting/striking strength to be in the 150-350 kilograms-force and 700-1500 kilograms-force categories, respectively. SPARTAN-IIs in MJOLNIR armor are about twice that strong, or about even-strength minus the suit.

Despite their strengths (who would suspect that such an innocuous-looking little thing could pack so much heat, anyway?), the GSGs have a number of glaring weaknesses. They have trouble operating independently, and often commit to illogical courses of action that could place their missions in jeopardy. Really, it's their lingering mental fragility that makes them interesting to watch. If they were any more professional about their jobs than they are now, I think that would detract from the overall "feeling" of the series.

Sure, the GSGs are excellent for high-risk assassination missions where the objective is not to attract too much attention from the general public... but if you were to alter their typical mission's profile just slightly, it would be a piece of cake to replace each one with a team of six to twelve special-forces soldiers. For example, rather than disguising a GSG as a maid in a hotel so as not to attract any unwanted attention from the hotel's patrons, you could do a rooftop insertion of an SF team via helicopter and avoid the main lobby altogether. Or, you could surround the building with snipers and wait for the target to exit. Or, you could wait for the target to enter a vehicle and track that vehicle and the target to a secure location before pulling off the hit. Plenty of possibilities, there.

There are many cases where a conventional team would be able to pull off the same job just as well as a GSG, if not better. Rather than engaging in foot pursuits of fleeing targets as most GSGs end up doing, a large team of SF operators could block off escape routes and eventually intercept the target. Let's say the target's boarded a boat, and is escaping to the sea. All you need is a pickup-truck transportable autogyro fitted with some rocket pods, and you're all set.

Hypothetically, let's say there's a hostage on that boat and you can't use the rockets. In that case, if you had air assets, you could observe and track the surface target for a pretty long time, allowing other methods of target interception to be employed.

I bet you're thinking "If the GSGs are easily replaceable by a large number of cheaper, conventional special-forces soldiers, then what's the point?". That's just the thing. The idea is not to create the perfect assassin. That's just a bonus. In truth, the girls are mostly being used as guinea pigs. The Agency is obviously looking into generational advances of the technology so the cyborgization technique can be made cheaper and eventually be used to augment front-line troops, along with the other branches of military and intelligence. Imagine the aforementioned SF operators with GSG-level strength, senses and resilience. That's the SWA's goal.

It's sickening, really, just how much these girls are being used. Not just as assassins, but as a test case for later generations of the technology so it doesn't take such a toll on the older folks that they can't afford to lose to an experimental procedure, lest their families raise a big stink about it. Triela's line about selfish adults is the first thing that comes to mind.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by boomer_gonz on Sun 21 Dec 2008 - 5:51

*THASF* wrote:
I bet you're thinking "If the GSGs are easily replaceable by a large number of cheaper, conventional special-forces soldiers, then what's the point?". That's just the thing. The idea is not to create the perfect assassin. That's just a bonus. In truth, the girls are mostly being used as guinea pigs. The Agency is obviously looking into generational advances of the technology so the cyborgization technique can be made cheaper and eventually be used to augment front-line troops, along with the other branches of military and intelligence. Imagine the aforementioned SF operators with GSG-level strength, senses and resilience. That's the SWA's goal.

It's sickening, really, just how much these girls are being used. Not just as assassins, but as a test case for later generations of the technology so it doesn't take such a toll on the older folks that they can't afford to lose to an experimental procedure, lest their families raise a big stink about it. Triela's line about selfish adults is the first thing that comes to mind.

In this, I wholeheartedly agree. With each generation from the Type 1 & 2's and even to the fandom's Type 0's; every subsequent generation of GSG cyborg seems to be inching their way onto the stage of sustained adult augmentation.

It's only be a matter of time before the procedure is approved for adults and this memo gets sent out.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 21 Dec 2008 - 12:20

*THASF* wrote:It's sickening, really, just how much these girls are being used. Not just as assassins, but as a test case for later generations of the technology so it doesn't take such a toll on the older folks that they can't afford to lose to an experimental procedure, lest their families raise a big stink about it. Triela's line about selfish adults is the first thing that comes to mind.

Well Gunslinger Girl is a tragedy. Cry

However, you do make some valid points in this area. I was re-reading a few chapters last night to refresh myself for a story and Hillshire did note that "Jean (Croce) believes our girls are only the beginning". And then we have the meeting of unknown principals (I am guessing they are the administrators of the SWA medical and engineering programs who the doctors like Bianchi and such report to) discussing the goals for the Series 2 cyborgs and how they will make the technology more widely available. And Special Operations Director Petris told Chairwoman D'Angelo that she would one day walk again thanks to the data being learned from girls like Henrietta.

The public face of the SWA is to benefit the citizens of Italy and to that end it has collected the finest medical minds in the country together and showered them with money and labs. That kind of expenditure is going to need to generate results in order to keep going - results that the public can see and benefit from.
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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 21 Dec 2008 - 22:13

If it were not for the work on Angie, her cousin would not be playing soccer with the parts that trickle down to the public domain.

In building the cyborgs, you are trying to build the a human subject as physically human as possible in appearence and function. The GsG Girls would not be able to do what they do if they looked like Dylecks, running around yelling, "EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE!"

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Ghostfriendly on Sat 28 Mar 2009 - 6:48

That conversation between the section heads after Angie was in the truck bombing even suggested part of the reason the government won't negociate with Padania; without them, there'd be no military reason to fund cyborg development.

A point about the 2nd gen; is there conditioning actually less strict than the 1st gen, or simply more flexible? So they could kill their handler if ordered, be reconditioned easily, act more independantly and live without feeling their dependency?

Isn't it possible that the conditioning process is being developed for application to the general populace as well?
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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 28 Mar 2009 - 10:47

The manga does explicitly state:


  1. The Generation 2 cyborgs have more flexible conditioning. What that means is a source of much debate amongst us.
  2. The Generation 2 is meant to advance cybernetics to the point they can be used by adults;
  3. One of the goals of the program is to make cybernetics available to the general public.
There would have to be some minor level of conditioning needed for civilians to be able to interface with the cybernetics. However, I do not believe the goal is to brainwash the Italian populace into obedient servants. I am sure Italy wants to export this technology and if everyone who gets it turns into a Caribbean-style zombie, it's not going to be a popular treatment. Wink

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Guest on Sat 28 Mar 2009 - 14:58

I think the cheaper production costs is the primary reason.

They've more free will with emotions, a weaker body, only her longer lifespan is a advantage opposite to the first generation.
Maybe another reason is the bigger fancircle... the first are only for Lolifans.

Ok, serious, I'm more amazed about the "only-girl-cyborgs". Can't boys conditioned?

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 28 Mar 2009 - 15:32

Seth wrote:Ok, serious, I'm more amazed about the "only-girl-cyborgs". Can't boys conditioned?

Nothing has been presented to say they can't. I assume we have not seen them because of a conscious decision by Yu Aida to not include them (to date).

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 28 Mar 2009 - 17:56

Kiskaloo wrote:The manga does explicitly state:


  1. The Generation 2 cyborgs have more flexible conditioning. What that means is a source of much debate amongst us.
  2. The Generation 2 is meant to advance cybernetics to the point they can be used by adults;
  3. One of the goals of the program is to make cybernetics available to the general public.
There would have to be some minor level of conditioning needed for civilians to be able to interface with the cybernetics. However, I do not believe the goal is to brainwash the Italian populace into obedient servants. I am sure Italy wants to export this technology and if everyone who gets it turns into a Caribbean-style zombie, it's not going to be a popular treatment. Wink
The only conditioning the Italian population would require to make the cybernetics work with them would be just a pill that one would take once a week or so and nothing more.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Danjo3 on Sat 28 Mar 2009 - 18:49

Kiskaloo wrote:One of the goals of the program is to make cybernetics available to the general public.
One of the goals yes, but the manga leads one to believe that the ultimate goal is an adult cyborg assassin or even a solider. Helping the public is more of a cover for their dirty work then anything else.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 28 Mar 2009 - 19:04

If you read Solution's Resolution on fanfiction.net, you'll understand why the Type/Generation 0 Cyborgs failed! Evil

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Ghostfriendly on Sun 29 Mar 2009 - 1:06

Kiskaloo wrote:The manga does explicitly state:


  1. The Generation 2 cyborgs have more flexible conditioning. What that means is a source of much debate amongst us.
  2. The Generation 2 is meant to advance cybernetics to the point they can be used by adults;
  3. One of the goals of the program is to make cybernetics available to the general public.

There would have to be some minor level of conditioning needed for civilians to be able to interface with the cybernetics. However, I do not believe the goal is to brainwash the Italian populace into obedient servants. I am sure Italy wants to export this technology and if everyone who gets it turns into a Caribbean-style zombie, it's not going to be a popular treatment. Wink

They'd need all the prior development to avoid creating a populace that needed to be ordered to go to the toilet. What they might be aiming for is people who go on living perfectly normally, but without much more extravagent needs than to turn on the TV every morning and evening, to hear the Italian prime minister tell them how much he cares about them, and remind them not to lie, steal, or vote for the opposition. The hard part would be to stop everyone in the country beating on the door of his house, insisting on some time alone.
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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by boomer_gonz on Sun 29 Mar 2009 - 11:16

Seth wrote:

Ok, serious, I'm more amazed about the "only-girl-cyborgs". Can't boys conditioned?

I have a theory on that. Boy's may have been used an early prototype stage, but something may have happened warranting the idea that girls might be easier to control.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Awinnell on Sun 29 Mar 2009 - 13:37


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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 29 Mar 2009 - 17:56

Terminator series uses both male and female cyborgs.
Star Trek's Borg Queen is definately female, and so is about 1/2 of her Borg hive.
Star Wars had a couple of female cyborgs, if in the least hidden.

The technology is there for everyone, despite gender. But in Yu's world, it seems to be that there are girl cyborgs. Fanfiction be damned, but we have fun with the GsG-Boy... Espcially Danjo!

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Nachtsider on Sun 29 Mar 2009 - 22:03

There's absolutely nothing in canon that says male cyborgs are impossible (the only requirement explicitly outlined was that they be young). I think the decision to make them female is entirely Yu's, in that there is no in-universe reason.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by LoC978 on Mon 30 Mar 2009 - 1:14

Nachtsider wrote:There's absolutely nothing in canon that says male cyborgs are impossible (the only requirement explicitly outlined was that they be young). I think the decision to make them female is entirely Yu's, in that there is no in-universe reason.
...'cept for the title of the series, anyway. Wink

'course, that's only in-universe when ya break the fourth wall... I could totally see a comedy spinoff where boys were rejected as subjects with a little wink at the camera...

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 30 Mar 2009 - 9:31

Nachtsider wrote:There's absolutely nothing in canon that says male cyborgs are impossible (the only requirement explicitly outlined was that they be young). I think the decision to make them female is entirely Yu's, in that there is no in-universe reason.
Very true, but theres obviously a reason only girls are used and not girl-boys. Im very curious to find out why.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 30 Mar 2009 - 10:34

Danjo3 wrote:...theres obviously a reason only girls are used and not girl-boys. Im very curious to find out why.

LoC978 tagged it - the title of the manga is Gunslinger Girls so that is what it is about. If it was Gunslinger Kids, then we'd likely see boys.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 30 Mar 2009 - 10:59

I think youre right Kiskaloo, but it wouldnt be Gunslinger kids, it would be Gunslinger Girl-boys


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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by boomer_gonz on Mon 30 Mar 2009 - 11:00

Or maybe just...Gunslinger.

-Cue spaghetti western music-

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Guest on Mon 30 Mar 2009 - 11:24

Xenomorph Alpha wrote:
-I...suppose it might work logically if they found that the stresses on the child model just couldn't be maintained, but this doesn't seem to be true. The closest that the child models have come to showing an integral design flaw is Angelica, and she's:
1.) the prototype, so of course she'll have more problems
2.) much more dependent on her implants thanks to the initial organic damage
3.) still completely combat viable at time of death, and she's showing progress in the memory-recovering department
Angelica is, far from being a case study in why the child-model cyborgs are irrevocably flawed, an example of the opposite: they're actually very resilient and quite reparable.
What is reparable ?
Their Body parts ? Certainly, Their Internal Organs ? Most probably, Their Brains ? NO.
by tossing a dose of god knows what's in those needles and relaying the nervs to the new parts while efficiently adopting the brain to the new component ~Must~
represent a certain LOAD to the brain, and naturally : every capacity has a limit and theirs, as children will eventually be maxed out quickly if you take in account something they call Transplant Rejection in the medical world
Transplant rejection occurs when a transplanted organ or tissue is not accepted by the body of the transplant recipient. This is explained by the concept that the immune system
of the recipient attacks the transplanted organ or tissue. This is
expected to happen, because the immune system's purpose is to
distinguish foreign material within the body and attempt to destroy it,
just as it attempts to destroy infecting organisms such as bacteria and viruses.
I'm sure the agency are doing their best at finding suitable & compatible stock for the girls, the storyline remains steady.

But...for some reason, they aren't working on that. They're working on making inferior models, with (I think?) inferior components/protection, who are easier targets, need more extensive and harder-to-do conditioning, and probably even cost more. Why?
For Different purposes.
Italy has a lot of problems, not just creepy racists separatists blond perverted northern freaks. they also have mafias that have to be infiltrated on long therm in the south, a car industry who's owners are always looking to deallocate their investments and some creepy illegal human traders across the Mediterranean sea and also huh ya ...

Just a small example, for the mafias in Sicily, a charming young women with "natural" behavior is still better than little Rico.

My new working theory--they're not actually built for combat, Chief Lorenzo just demanded a harem from the Italian government and everyone is overreacting. >_>;
+10 the boys need psychological reinstatement.
In Vietnam war, they said that some of the soldiers refused the few viet woman willing to sleep with them, so they brought girls from the east. (you know, those tall blondes from russia)
that's just a rumour tho'

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 30 Mar 2009 - 12:08

Kiskaloo wrote:LoC978 tagged it - the title of the manga is Gunslinger Girls so that is what it is about. If it was Gunslinger Kids, then we'd likely see boys.
I'm still of the opinion that this cannot be taken as an in-universe explanation for the absence of male cyborgs, and that it merely reflects the author's focus/tastes. Mind you, I'm not strenuously gunning for canonical use of male cyborgs despite being a firm proponent of them in fanfiction - I merely want to see a more conclusive, in-universe piece of evidence explaining their absence.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Robert Frazer on Mon 30 Mar 2009 - 13:43

I'm still of the opinion that this cannot be taken as an in-universe explanation for the absence of male cyborgs, and that it merely reflects the author's focus/tastes

Eh, I wouldn't be too keen on the appearance of 'gunslinger guys', in all perfect honesty - I think that it would defeat much of the point of the series in the first place.

Do you remember the old nursery rhyme, that boys are made out of slugs, snails, and puppy dogs' tails, while girls are sugar & spice & all things nice? Gunslinger Girl is a perfect exemplar of that in action. All boys dream of being action heroes, and there's plenty of fiction out there already to cater to it from Boy's Own to Young Bond. Contrastingly, there's an expectation for girls to be more sedate and serene in their pleasures. Girls have their make-up kits and doll-houses; boys have comic books (or videogames, these days) and football. Girls have Barbie and My Little Pony; boys have G.I. Joe and Transformers.

If you togged up a boy like the Six Million Dollar Man and handed him a gun, his first reaction would be to shout "cool!" and go out and kick ass and take names. He's getting to live out the fantasy that he and so many other boys share, and society assigns to them. Gunslinger Girl, however, derives a lot of its emotive power from discomfiting, unreal juxtaposition: Rico is cleaning a pistol while Henrietta is practising her sewing across the room; little Angelica stands on tippy-toes to peer over something - so she can set up a rifle bipod; they all fight vicious and bloody gunbattles in skirts, pumps, and white knee-highs; Elsa's too small to reach the lift buttons so she prods them with a gunbarrel; Petrushka plays with make-up but not to strut about like a starlet but rather for deception and espionage; they cover up the smell of gunpowder with designer perfumes. Franca identifies Henrietta as a clean, "well-to-do" girl, but she's doing the government's "dirty work". You can only inspire that arresting sense of a transgressive thrill by using girls. For boys it's natural and par for the course, but with girls you're pushing the envelope, and that's a source of power for the storyline and an anchor of interest for the setting.

Furthermore, because Gunslinger Girl is chiefly an interpersonal character drama, all of the girls necessarily relate to each other very closely and intimately, so that we can see their characters plainly and without inhibition - introducing male cyborgs would obfuscate and weaken that essential pillar of the series, because people are less familiar and more distant in mixed company.


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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 30 Mar 2009 - 14:12

Robert Frazer wrote:Gunslinger Girl, however, derives a lot of its emotive power from discomfiting, unreal juxtaposition...You can only inspire that arresting sense of a transgressive thrill by using girls. For boys it's natural and par for the course, but with girls you're pushing the envelope.

Which also is a likely reason why girls are used. The PRF and organized crime already use boys and young men in offensive capabilities, so they are likely a bit more focused on observing the actions of such people. With young girls, they lower their guard because they expect them to be "harmless".

And with older girls like Petra, their physical appeal can also be an advantage, distracting the focus of their targets long enough to allow the cyborg to get into position to attack.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 30 Mar 2009 - 14:30

You people are SEXIST. Razz

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 30 Mar 2009 - 16:22

Nachtsider wrote:You people are SEXIST. Razz

We're also realists. Wink

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Danjo3 on Tue 31 Mar 2009 - 1:54

Nachtsider wrote:Mind you, I'm not strenuously gunning for canonical use of male cyborgs despite being a firm proponent of them in fanfiction - I merely want to see a more conclusive, in-universe piece of evidence explaining their absence.
You and me both buddy. All canon evidence tends to point to the fact that theres a specific reason girl-boys arent used, but I agree with you in that its just the way Yu wants to write the story.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by John_234 on Wed 27 Jun 2012 - 4:17

Oh, look, a necropost from hell.

Luce is a generation two partially because she's too old to be a gen one. But there's a lot of justification to a less durable, longer-living type.

A tougher machine needs to be built to harsher standards. More conditioning, more servicing. This would imply that a gen two cyborg would suffer much less psychologically from just everyday use. Additionally, since they're built on larger people, they need less complex and hard-wearing machinery to do the same job - the possibility arises that you don't need intensive surgery and conditioning to replace parts.

By far the most important result of this all is they live longer with better mental health. They gain experience, which above all is what saves your bacon in the field - not some temporary cyborg durability or a support system that might fail. But knowing how to avoid the fight you can't win, and how to set yourself up for that unfair victory.

An ounce of prevention is worth of a pound of cure is a pretty good saying in this instance.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Il Direttore on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 2:00

Before I continue, I should note that I don't have access to anything that involves the Gen. 2 units in manga or anime form. So what I'm about to say is based entirely off the analysis I read here.

The case can probably be made that Generation Twos are intended to be specialized combat platforms, whereas Generation Ones are Multirole Combat Platforms. It's kinda like the difference between an F-35 of Eurofighter Typhoon vs. an F-22 or Mirage III. I mean, granted, all of those aircraft kick massive ass, but an F-35 is designed to do multiple different jobs and do them extremely well, whereas an F-22 is designed do exactly one job and kill everything in its way to get it done.

Comparing the timeframes, this does seem to make sense. Gen. One units tend to have greater strength-to-weight ratios (hell, strength in general) and can utilize a wide variety of skills to smash, bash, blast, and pulverize. Gen. Twos are more delicate but have a longer life span, so they can spend more time getting really well trained in a single job and then completely dominating the field with it.

Say you want to breach and clear a Padani Safehouse. You could send in two Gen. Ones, who would blast the hell out of the place. Or you could send in three Gen. Two - Assault models and one Gen. Two - Survey model. Survey Model snipes while Assault models clear the rooms with much higher rates of efficiency than the Gen. Ones. Basically: GSI on Steriods and Crack. Your job efficiency is higher, the operation is quieter and easier to cover up, and you get it done much faster.

Also the bit about larger parts being easier to replace: very true. Working in an engineering firm that does its own machining this summer and let me tell you, the tiny ass parts so such a PAIN. The big parts whose raw material you can just whack into the machine is so much easier.
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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Alfisti on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 4:28

In all honesty, I don't think you'll find the reasoning or logic for the Gen 2 girls in what might be broadly termed the SWA's "warfighting" requirements. With the exception of extra accrued experience from their longevity, a better combat model could be created by shoe-horning the Gen 2 conditioning and brainwashing package into a Gen 1 chassis.

With that in mind, I think the Gen 2s find their roots in budgetary constraints and the broader goals of the cyborg program. For starters, they're cheaper to produce and last longer, and with so many different services, agencies, etc in Italy all clamouring for funding, that's important; the government gets more return for its investment. Speaking of investments, one of the goals of the cyborg program was to create cybernetic prothesis for the general market: which means for adults and in a manner which will integrate easialy with human biology without killing it in the process. The Gen 2s are the next step down that path: longer lived, less dependent on their drugs and their cybernetics are connected up to an older, less maleable brain. It's one step closer to having a viable commercial product and therefore one step closer to being able to show an economic return rather than just a military one.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Il Direttore on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 5:07

I agree with the finance bit, but I'm not sure about the shoe-horning bit.

You'd definitely have to use a different set of materials to achieve longevity over kickassery, seeing as we have completely different conditioning requirements for Gen. Ones vs. Gen. Twos, requiring you to still rely on finesse or specialization to win the day.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by John_234 on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 5:14

I don't think the jet is a fair comparison. A F-22 will always win a dogfight against an F-35. Neither plane can provide as good ground support as an A-10 does. However, all of them suffer from a performance ceiling, unlike humans who have no consistent level of "maximum performance" and are effected by psychological factors.

There's absolutely no reason you can't specialize a Gen 1. Some do surveillance and intelligence, some do raw fighting. Yes, part of the drama is that 'Etta isn't so great at the non-fighting roles, but it's not implied that this is the case for all of them. And training them to do a specific job isn't hard, it's gaining experience in doing things in unusual scenarios.

Alfi, I think you're missing my point, though. I don't get the impression that Gen 2s have better quality conditioning and brain-washing. I think it's primarily because Gen 1s are less high-performance and are designed to take much more mental and physical punishment, which adds to these side effects. They're also done on younger minds, which are imminently more vulnerable to PTSD and intense mental trauma. If we want to get technical it's absurd they don't wear body armor on raids, but that's handwaved for drama. The obsolesce of Gen 1s was probably just a coin flip on Aida's part. If I try to make GSG too realistic it melts my brain trying to get around the author's contrived decisions.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Il Direttore on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 5:17

Eh, all speculation must be shelved in favor of Literary Elements.

That being said, I disagree: Gen. 1s are certainly capable of specialization, but the combination of experience (which you pointed out) and the ability to train for longer on a less intense "do-or-die" schedule should allow a Gen. 2 to be BETTER at specialization.

What would you recommend as a better comparison? I can't think of one. I briefly considered an F/A-18 vs. F-14 comparison, which might have been better....

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by John_234 on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 5:26

Jets are machines operated by human pilots. Cyborgs are humans with mechanical modifications. I just think jets don't really explain it well enough.

A cyborg that lives longer can gain more experience in the field, but the reality of it is that most of them due to budget and the reality of a war will be pushed into use and have to learn in the field. The only way to gain experience is to do field work.

A Gen 1 will survive more mistakes. A Gen 2 can live longer so long as they steer clear of damage, and there is more of them. What is "worth it" is really an individual standpoint.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Alfisti on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 6:06

John_234 wrote:Alfi, I think you're missing my point, though. I don't get the impression that Gen 2s have better quality conditioning and brain-washing. I think it's primarily because Gen 1s are less high-performance and are designed to take much more mental and physical punishment, which adds to these side effects. They're also done on younger minds, which are imminently more vulnerable to PTSD and intense mental trauma. If we want to get technical it's absurd they don't wear body armor on raids, but that's handwaved for drama. The obsolesce of Gen 1s was probably just a coin flip on Aida's part. If I try to make GSG too realistic it melts my brain trying to get around the author's contrived decisions.
Eh, I'm thinking that "shoe-horning" comment was not one of my best... it was meant more as a means to illustrate that I still think the primary driver for the Gen 2 girls was not military in nature, but rather related to the cyborg program's broader goals and constraints.

I dunno, I personally hold the view that the Gen 2 girls do have improved versions of the conditioning and brainwashing, allowing them more flexiblity in their decision making and so on... though I also agree that the the lower performance and reduced stress on the Gen 2 girls' systems is a factor as well: there's a reason I wrote Monty as being weaker than the other girls to make use of that effect. To me though the conditioning works at least in part as a sort of "anti-rejection" drug, helping smooth the interface between biologial and cybernetic components, so if the eventual intention is to implement the cybernetics for commercial use then it would make sense that it was being developed along side those; with a particular view to reducing any nasty side effects.

I dunno, I just feel that, had the primary driver been military in nature then there would have been more of a push from somewhere to retain some more of the Gen 1 toughness.

Either way, I'm also in full agreement that a lot of technicalities can be waived for the sake of the story. I've said it elsewhere, but I still think the technology only provides a backdrop for the story and characters of GSG itself.

Though the debate is fun Very Happy

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by John_234 on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 6:20

Frankly nothing about the SWA is all that military. It's totally political - they're an arm to kill people that are bad for the government. IMHO, that's not what a military should do, but lets not get into that.

The cyborgs were designed to efficiently kill said people. Which is a good goal - kill them somehow no matter what it takes. The goal of the project wasn't to make them super-tough and survivable - that was more of a benefit of how they were designed. If the cyborgs make less mistakes due to lessened conditioning problems and a larger capacity to gain experience, this means more successful missions and less dead cyborgs and handlers. You can also think of it as proactive versus reactive.

Do you want to be prepared to be shot, or avoid being shot? You want to cover all your bases, but it ultimately saves money to avoid being in that situation. Then that means the design just works better for this sort of political assassination work, at least hypothetically.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Alfisti on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 6:41

I'm not going to nit-pick the terminology... military goals, anti-terrorist capability, general ability to defend and maintain the government of Italy through espionage and violence, whatever.

I'm not saying that there isn't a... if you don't like the term "military" then, I dunno, an "operational"?... benifit in making the girls more able to persue those goals in the Gen 2 program: more able to look out for themselves, more able to make decisions based on experience, avoid being shot, be proactive rather than reactive... or that it wasn't a factor in how the program was approached. However I think this time you're missing my fundamental point, being that the SWA has more goals than just being able to go out and effectively kill people. Yes, that's it's current primary role, but looking past the proverbial "next paycheck", the long term intention is to use it as an R&D hotbed to create commercially viable cybernetics, for use in prosthesis or whatever. Eventually it needs to be able to offer that return on investment and I think the Gen 2 cyborgs are another step toward that more long term goal... not to mention that, not that it's had a couple of years to get its feet under it and is no longer the government's shiny new toy, it's probably going to need to fight for its budget a little harder, so making cyborgs longer lived and cheaper to produce is going to be a boon as well... which in some respects loops back to your argument of being pro-active rather than reactive.

Short version: I think there's more influences on the Gen2 project than a simple need to shoot people in the face more efficiently.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by John_234 on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 7:10

That makes sense. You sounded like you were arguing that there was no operational consideration at all with these mods, or that they were done in spite of operational needs.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

Post by Alfisti on Wed 4 Jul 2012 - 7:42

John_234 wrote:You sounded like you were arguing that there was no operational consideration at all with these mods, or that they were done in spite of operational needs.
Oh God no; I'm rarely, if ever, that black and white... That said, I think just my own interests, views and occupation tend to end with me pushing the commercial side and other goals/considerstions of the SWA a bit harder than most, or at least giving them more weight in my own thinking.

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Re: Second-generation cyborgs: ...why?

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