feelings about Pino?

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feelings about Pino?

Post by Angiegarde on Sat 12 Apr 2008 - 17:18

How do you guys feel about Pinochio, Christiano (member of the Pandanians)'s personal assasin?

Personally, when I first read volume 3, I was angry at him for murdering the young daughter of a target of his for being in the wrong place at the wrong time and not show any remorse for it like Rico did when she was about to shot Emilio. I was also angry at him for defeating Triela in combat and causing her to doubt herself.

After reading volume 5 though, he seems to care a great deal about Christiano and was willing to fight and even die to protect him. Also, he seemed to get along well with Franca and Flanca which is something I can respect. Finally, he recognized Triela not as a mindless assasin but as someone who, like him, was fighting for those she cared about.

This of course got me to re-think some of Pino's actions in volume and look past my anger towards him. He DID spare Triela when he could have killed her because he thought of the young girl he killed earlier in volume 3. This showed me that perhaps he had a heart after all.

All of this has resulted in me having a mixed opinion on Pinochio. To me, he fits in the grey area between good and evil, how about you guys?
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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Triela on Sat 12 Apr 2008 - 18:31

He's a terrorist, he tried to kill my Triela therefore I hate him.

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by sasahara17 on Sat 12 Apr 2008 - 19:08

Personally, I was very disappointed when Yuu killed him off in Volume 5. I felt his character was interesting since there seemed to be a parallel between him and the grils he's fighting against. Sure he handed Triela her first defeat, but that kicked off a whole arc in her character development.

My feelings were probably also influenced by the entrance of Petra the next volume. Goobye with knife wielding cool dude, hello... this ditz? I did eventually warm up to Petra eventually, but yeah. Pino's death and Petra's introduction...

Oh well, he went out in style though.

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by LoC978 on Sun 13 Apr 2008 - 1:54

Poor kid. I've always viewed him much the same as the Girls. He was just being used by the other side. Ah, politics.

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Wileama on Sun 13 Apr 2008 - 2:35

I agree Pinochio served as a mirror to the girls. He fought to help make what he thought would we be a better world. His motivations where a little different, but also shared a lot in common. Along with Franca, and Franco he was there to remind us that there are good people on both sides of any conflict. It made his death tragic, in that we could easily see the girls in that kind of situation.

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Sakura on Sun 13 Apr 2008 - 2:41

My first impression of Pino in the manga was negative. I found him to be a heartless bastard and was pissed even more when he defeated Triela so easily. Even when he spared her, I still didn't like him because it left Triela depressed. However, my thoughts of him changed a bit when he interacted with Franco and Franca. Maybe it was because I saw him just like the SWA girls, but on the opposite side. However, even after the final battle I still didn't care much about him.

The anime though changed my impression on him completely. I think maybe because I saw the interactions in motion between him and Christiano, and between him and Franca made him not the bastard I thought he was. Event though I consider Christiano the scum of the scums, Pino did care for him so much that he was willing to die for him. The final battle between Triela and Pino I found to be heartwrenching because I saw them both so similar and both of them had their reasons for fighting. Unlike the manga, seeing Pino's body on the ground made me feel sad for his demise. Probably because I got to know his character more and while he wasn't good, he wasn't bad either. Just doing what he had to do given the situation he was in.
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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Nachtsider on Sun 13 Apr 2008 - 2:48

I didn't care for Pino in the manga. Like Sakura, I found him a cold-hearted son of a bitch - a cruel murderer, and didn't shed any tears for him when he died. In fact, I found myself hoping that Triela had made his death as agonizing as possible.

After I took a look at him in the anime, though, my feelings changed. The anime did a wonderful job of humanizing him, and I found myself on the verge of tears during that final scene when Triela approached his corpse and returned the pendant Christiano had given him. I now find myself holding neither hatred nor love for Pino - I'm pretty ambivalent now, although my heart often finds itself leaning towards pity. It's sad, really, how a young, impressionable lad can be twisted into a criminal and a wholesale killer.

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 13 Apr 2008 - 4:14

I hated Pino’s guts right up to the last chapter of vol.5. That final fight scene is what really changed my mind. In our forum translation, Triela calls Pino a monster (not freak as in the ADV version), later on in the fight Pino says, “Now who’s the monster?” That really got me. It’s like he was saying where you get off calling me that when we’re in the same boat. Both are fighting for someone they deeply care about. Sadly though, both are being used by those same people.

The anime really didn’t change my feeling for him as much as it did for Triela.

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Guest on Sun 13 Apr 2008 - 8:13

I liked Pino from the very beginning. Pragmatic, dedicated and heartless are traits that I like to see in characters, which is part of why I like GSG, and he presented a nice contrast to the girls - being on the other side of the conflict and having a genuine familial attachment instead of a conditioning induced obsession with someone.

However, he was a catalyst for growth in Triela and he would not have worked as well had he come into conflict with her more than twice.

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by West Nile on Sun 13 Apr 2008 - 9:08

i believe that Pino is proof that u don't need a cyborg to take out the cyborgs. I like him the moment he sucker punched Triela (sorry Triela)

and i still feel bad that Triela and Pino will never really be together....

Go Earthbound!! (sasahara's fic)

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 13 Apr 2008 - 11:04

Pino has one thing that the girls dont- years of martial arts training from Jonn (an ex-CIA operative).

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Nuke is Good on Sun 13 Apr 2008 - 11:56

If Pino did that much to Triela, a first generation cyborg; just imagine how much damage he would do on a second generation cyborg.

Pino to me just shows the girls are not invincible and need to be trained.
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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Tommygunner70 on Sun 13 Apr 2008 - 12:25

@Nuke is Good wrote:If Pino did that much to Triela, a first generation cyborg; just imagine how much damage he would do on a second generation cyborg.

Pino to me just shows the girls are not invincible and need to be trained.

yeah, the second generation cyborgs pack way less "armoring" then the first generation...


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Sauce?

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Guest on Sun 13 Apr 2008 - 13:33

To me, Pino is a very strong killer. He is much stronger than the cyborgs. I think he is like a mirror of Triela since they had a similar fate.......It makes me pity him. Therefore I like him.
But I know he would die in the final fight so I didn't put too much affection on him.

@Nuke is Good wrote:If Pino did that much to Triela, a first generation cyborg; just imagine how much damage he would do on a second generation cyborg.

Pino to me just shows the girls are not invincible and need to be trained.

If it was gen2 cyborg deal with Pino, they will be all die....ALL DIE!! Certainly.

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Utsurokuri on Sun 13 Apr 2008 - 13:38

Well coming from a mysterious background even now I still want to know things about him. I felt that maybe if they the girl did more to find out about Pino, Franca and Franco maybe they wouldn't have been so ruthless towards them then again they do kill Padania's for a living...

I think though the whole point of Pino was to make the reader realize that not everything is black and white as it seems just like how the real world it. That in every situation in life their is always going to be good people regardless of the sides they are on.
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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Guest on Sun 13 Apr 2008 - 14:44

shikiwu wrote:
@Nuke is Good wrote:If Pino did that much to Triela, a first generation cyborg; just imagine how much damage he would do on a second generation cyborg.

If it was gen2 cyborg deal with Pino, they will be all die....ALL DIE!! Certainly.
Except that, at least in my opinion, the second generation of cyborgs are going to be a lot better at social manipulation and probably wouldn't ever end up in the way of Pino's violence anyway.

The first gen are something of a damn SWAT team in the way they act, there's no point in trying to get them to do anything beyond kill all the targets or protect their handlers, who have to spend half their time making sure their girl isn't doing something to put both of them in danger and therefore are less effective at doing the work they ought to be doing. The second generation will be better able to make judgement calls on their own initiative and therefore can really contribute to the active counter-terrorism work that the girls were, all along, intended to do. We see them being used the way that their package of modifications and conditioning is intended, with the first generation gunning people down left, right and centre and the second generation identifying terrorists before they have a chance to strike.

Lets look at track record with regards to on camera attempted social infiltrations that each generation has. Henrietta blows their cover nearly immediately by attacking and killing the guy who so much as grabs her handler by the tie. Petrsuhka identifies an extremist with explosives on his person soon after being handed over to Alessandro. Petrushka bluffs Claes and herself aboard a boat operated by a pair of escaping terrorists. Claes doesn't even manage to actively follow Petrushka's lead and fails to cover up the fact that they're armed when confronted.

Importantly, social infiltration is almost the only way of identifying who is an extremist before they act and therefore determining who you need to kill or arrest to protect the most people. A weapon with a target is useless and the first generation are just smart weapons - smart as in "smart bomb" - whilst the second generation is capable of finding targets for those weapons.

In short, whether Petrushka could take on Pino is a pointless question to ask because she'd only meet Pino, or somebody like him, if she had screwed up to the point of being useless anyway. Stop being so obsessed by the combat scenes and begin thinking about what the girls are meant to be doing.

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Sakura on Sun 13 Apr 2008 - 16:15

Fomoria wrote:Except that, at least in my opinion, the second generation of cyborgs are going to be a lot better at social manipulation and probably wouldn't ever end up in the way of Pino's violence anyway.
If social manipulation were to be sex appeal (since this is what the second generation has been used for so far), this would have no effect on Pino. He's already sick of his share of dealing with girls and by the time they'd attempt any 'social manipulation', Pino would already have a knife at their throat.

The first gen are something of a damn SWAT team in the way they act, there's no point in trying to get them to do anything beyond kill all the targets or protect their handlers, who have to spend half their time making sure their girl isn't doing something to put both of them in danger and therefore are less effective at doing the work they ought to be doing.
The first generation was raised to be a SWAT team and do the government's dirty jobs. They could have had them do other roles, but the point of the 1st generation was to raise these cyborgs as killers.

In short, whether Petrushka could take on Pino is a pointless question to ask because she'd only meet Pino, or somebody like him, if she had screwed up to the point of being useless anyway. Stop being so obsessed by the combat scenes and begin thinking about what the girls are meant to be doing.
I find the question of whether Petra could take on Pino quite interesting and far from pointless. I like the 'what if' questions that people bring up since while we'll never know the answer, it's fun to think about what would happen. And btw...I like combat scenes. cheers
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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Guest on Sun 13 Apr 2008 - 17:28

@Sakura wrote:If social manipulation were to be sex appeal (since this is what the second generation has been used for so far), this would have no effect on Pino. He's already sick of his share of dealing with girls and by the time they'd attempt any 'social manipulation', Pino would already have a knife at their throat.

The first generation was raised to be a SWAT team and do the government's dirty jobs. They could have had them do other roles, but the point of the 1st generation was to raise these cyborgs as killers.

I find the question of whether Petra could take on Pino quite interesting and far from pointless. I like the 'what if' questions that people bring up since while we'll never know the answer, it's fun to think about what would happen. And btw...I like combat scenes. cheers
First of all, I believe that I lost myself to the urge to rant and somewhat overstated the abilities of the second generation. - I apologise for that However, I'll answer the points you raised anyway.

Social manipulation is more than just using "sex appeal" to get what you want, so your idea that Pino would be immune is incorrect. If Pino were to threaten or attack outright any female he meets, then he's worse than useless for organised crime and domestic terrorism since he would be arrested too often to do anything of use.

There are situations in which one can identify accurately whether someone is your enemy or your ally, but these are situations where social skills are not going to be useful anyway; one does not generally bargain with an armed invader of your home. These situations are, however, relatively easy to avoid; you don't burst in through a window laden with guns and then expect people to believe that you're looking to join their group, but you can knock on their door and claim to be a reporter looking to interview people about an upcoming policy as part of a political article and the worst that can happen is that they turn you away.

Which brings me nicely onto your second point. The girls were obviously intended to be protect their handlers in dangerous cricumstances whilst they use normal counter-terrorist tactics, hence Jose trying to bluff his way past the door right at the beginning of the series to identify the occpants of the room. This kind of thing sometimes involves threats of violence and the first generation girls are too twitchy to handle these, hence Henrietta killing the guy who threatens to harm Jose if he continues to try to press his way into the room. That is why the first generation girls are not really useful for active counter-terrorism operations, they expose their handlers to additional risk by overreacting to minor or non-existant threats and this requires additional attention that could be better directed to actually achieving the mission objective.

It's pointless because it's not the intended primary function of the second generation, like asking why a pistol is notoriously bad at hitting targets at 500m ranges or why a gamepad is not a good interface device for a desktop environment. I ascertained the motivation as being yet another attempt to assert the superiority of the first generation over the new, which is untrue.

As for your love of combat scenes, they will eventually get tired and boring if the exclude everything else. Conversely they'll be more interesting if they have additional spacing from social infiltration scenes - absence makes the heart grow fonder.

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 13 Apr 2008 - 21:18

Fomoria wrote:Except that, at least in my opinion, the second generation of cyborgs are going to be a lot better at social manipulation and probably wouldn't ever end up in the way of Pino's violence anyway.

The first gen are something of a damn SWAT team in the way they act, there's no point in trying to get them to do anything beyond kill all the targets or protect their handlers, who have to spend half their time making sure their girl isn't doing something to put both of them in danger and therefore are less effective at doing the work they ought to be doing. The second generation will be better able to make judgement calls on their own initiative and therefore can really contribute to the active counter-terrorism work that the girls were, all along, intended to do.
Then let me ask you this - what’s the point of making them cyborgs and conditioning them in the first place. The qualities you think are so great are those of a run of the mill, everyday agent. By your logic, turning Petra into a cyborg was a big waste of money and effort. It was pointless.

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Triela on Sun 13 Apr 2008 - 21:26

Second gens are a waist. Besides In the very first few page of the manga Jean stated: "The physical alterations, the conditioning all take better the younger the subject."

Therefore second gens are gonna die fast, if not by the conditioning alone, then by getting hit, somewhere not fatal to a first gen, but fatal to a second gen.

In short: Second gens are useless piles of junk.

*Slaps head* WAIT they're not all useless! They're used as fanservice! cheers bang head

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 13 Apr 2008 - 21:46

@Triela wrote:*Slaps head* WAIT they're not all useless! They're used as fanservice! cheers bang head
And I’m sure we’ll be seeing plenty of it soon. Sandro and Petra are just a short step away from a good old fashion roll in the hay.

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Wileama on Mon 14 Apr 2008 - 4:51

Don't everyone lynch Fomoria all at once now. The man actually has a point. I'm not sure he's entirely right, but it does deserve some careful measured consideration.

Fomoria made the analogy that the First Gen girls are little more then smart bombs. You deliver them to the target area, and tell them kill xyz. With out someone to operate them, they usually aren't useful. While the second gen are more like Unmanned Combat Arieal Vehicle. It requires less human intervention to carry out it's mission find. Petra does seem better then the average cyborg at acting independently of her handler.

@Danjo3 wrote:Then let me ask you this - what’s the point of making them cyborgs and conditioning them in the first place. The qualities you think are so great are those of a run of the mill, everyday agent. By your logic, turning Petra into a cyborg was a big waste of money and effort. It was pointless.
An autonomous aircraft doesn't tire, it doesn't lose focus, it doesn't question orders, and it would be capable of maneuvers that would kill a human pilot. Petra in many ways is the same. Her cyborg body provide her physical strength, dexterity, stamina, and physical senses are still far greater then that of a normal humans. She probably is still more likely to survive a bullet then a normal human. While her conditioning provider her with a loyalty to the SWA not easily found in non-cyborgs. There is also the possibility conditioning helps improve her focus. These are advantages she has over a human operative. Any counter terrorism unit would drool kill over a steady supply of recruits like that.

@Triela wrote:Second gens are a waist. Besides In the very first few page of the manga Jean stated: "The physical alterations, the conditioning all take better the younger the subject."

Therefore second gens are gonna die fast, if not by the conditioning alone, then by getting hit, somewhere not fatal to a first gen, but fatal to a second gen.
When Jean said this the second gen's where, at best a drawing on a computer. More likely they where just a twinkle in some scientist's eye. As technology progressed it's possible this changed. Even if it didn't it was specificaly stated by a scientist in volume six that the second gens should live twice as long as the first gens. [not at home can't get reference. Happened either at the meeting, or petra's surgery. Anyone want to confirm?] It's likely that other changes outwieght the older age of the subjects.

Anyway the older age would actually help the girls blend in socially. A teenager is able to move places a younger child can not. A teenager walking down a dark alley alone at night wont have that nice couple stop, and ask where her parents are. A teenager wont automatically be pulled over while driving. Again, and again you have to look at the issues as a cost benefit. They lose combat ability, and gain life span. They lose the illusion of innocence, and gain freedom of movement. Those aren't exactly bad trade offs. Especially if your goal is a more independent investigative type cyborg.

There is one real question though. Are the second gens better then the first gens at independent behavior, and investigation? Consider for a moment Triela. She is comparable in many ways to Petra. You'll recall in volume three Triela's investigation directly lead to the discover of Pino's safe house. Not Hilshire, but Triela. Now Triela does break the mold of the first gens. Most first gens are as Fomoria described just very effective weapons. We only have one second gen to go on, Petra. It's possible, if somewhat unlikely, that Petra is only investigator among the second gens.

I think ultimately the question falls to the handler. Look at the handlers, and look at the girls. As far as we know Hilshire is the only handler without a military career. Hilshire's cyborg is the only first gen who can investigate. If the SWA is picking cops, and spies for the second gen handlers they are likely to be investigators. Seeing as how the second gens would appear better suited at investigations this would make sense. However without confirmation it remains assumptions. Logical assumptions to be sure, but who knows.

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Tommygunner70 on Mon 14 Apr 2008 - 8:11

Hmmm... Hello?

can anyone give me the link to sasahara's "Earthbound" fic?

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Guest on Mon 14 Apr 2008 - 9:12

Second gens are a waist. Besides In the very first few page of the manga Jean stated: "The physical alterations, the conditioning all take better the younger the subject."

Therefore second gens are gonna die fast, if not by the conditioning alone, then by getting hit, somewhere not fatal to a first gen, but fatal to a second gen.

I'm not sure with that statement. Because with the name 'second generation' stamped, wouldn't there be a more sophisticated form of improvements in the cyborg? To me they seem to be more durable, more self-sustained, and more dominant of their minds compare to the first gens. I haven't been reading the GSG manga for quite some time (I need to touch video games and manga RIGHT NOW!! But work killed the time), but as far as I read I think second gens were more 'in-control' of their brainwashed mind. They have the ability to express themselves (as shown by Petra), and to somehow--though difficult--bypass the conditioning drug that made them loyal.

Soon, I think the SWA would have to rely on mutual relationship to complete their mission rather than conditioning drugs; I see that its not as effective as it once was...

And on Pino...
I think he's cool at first glance. Smooth moves, combat experience, great skills with knifes, and overall, an all-round all-capable boy. Makes me think he's the protagonist and the girls were the antagonists once. He's one character that I think appeared at the right time, but ended his career too soon in the GSG franchise; I would seriously love to see Pino in action against the entire SWA member board! A six on one! Can Pino handle them all? Laughing

...or what if Pino ended as a handler? I couldn't stop thinking about that and what the girl he nurtured would be like; close-quarters knife specialist? Laughing


Goobye with knife wielding cool dude, hello... this ditz?

Laughing

Knowing Sandro's past, he could always use her more than just a 'partner' (up 3-4 level) :p


If Pino did that much to Triela, a first generation cyborg; just imagine how much damage he would do on a second generation cyborg.

Petrushka? Heh, she'd be dead *gomene Petra fans* in less than a minute. Triela managed to beat Pino after she received a decent training. Petra (who comes with heals, revealing clothes) wouldn't stand a chance against Pino's life-time experience.

...Or Pino could use his looks to turn Petrushka to the other side of the wall... LaughingLaughing snipe

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by West Nile on Mon 14 Apr 2008 - 9:45

@Tommygunner70 wrote:Hmmm... Hello?

can anyone give me the link to sasahara's "Earthbound" fic?

You like the sound of it too tommy? it's still in the works however, we'll have to wait

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by West Nile on Mon 14 Apr 2008 - 9:48

Fomoria wrote:
shikiwu wrote:
@Nuke is Good wrote:If Pino did that much to Triela, a first generation cyborg; just imagine how much damage he would do on a second generation cyborg.

If it was gen2 cyborg deal with Pino, they will be all die....ALL DIE!! Certainly.
Except that, at least in my opinion, the second generation of cyborgs are going to be a lot better at social manipulation and probably wouldn't ever end up in the way of Pino's violence anyway.

The first gen are something of a damn SWAT team in the way they act, there's no point in trying to get them to do anything beyond kill all the targets or protect their handlers, who have to spend half their time making sure their girl isn't doing something to put both of them in danger and therefore are less effective at doing the work they ought to be doing. The second generation will be better able to make judgement calls on their own initiative and therefore can really contribute to the active counter-terrorism work that the girls were, all along, intended to do. We see them being used the way that their package of modifications and conditioning is intended, with the first generation gunning people down left, right and centre and the second generation identifying terrorists before they have a chance to strike.

Lets look at track record with regards to on camera attempted social infiltrations that each generation has. Henrietta blows their cover nearly immediately by attacking and killing the guy who so much as grabs her handler by the tie. Petrsuhka identifies an extremist with explosives on his person soon after being handed over to Alessandro. Petrushka bluffs Claes and herself aboard a boat operated by a pair of escaping terrorists. Claes doesn't even manage to actively follow Petrushka's lead and fails to cover up the fact that they're armed when confronted.

Importantly, social infiltration is almost the only way of identifying who is an extremist before they act and therefore determining who you need to kill or arrest to protect the most people. A weapon with a target is useless and the first generation are just smart weapons - smart as in "smart bomb" - whilst the second generation is capable of finding targets for those weapons.

In short, whether Petrushka could take on Pino is a pointless question to ask because she'd only meet Pino, or somebody like him, if she had screwed up to the point of being useless anyway. Stop being so obsessed by the combat scenes and begin thinking about what the girls are meant to be doing.

He's right Pino does not stand a chance against Petra, if Petra gets him into bed he will bleed his nose out!! It's Gunslinger Girl for crying out loud!

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Wileama on Mon 14 Apr 2008 - 11:26

@West Nile wrote:
@Tommygunner70 wrote:Hmmm... Hello?

can anyone give me the link to sasahara's "Earthbound" fic?
You like the sound of it too tommy? it's still in the works however, we'll have to wait
Be prepared to wait a while, I'm not sure Sasahara is ever going to have the time to get it out of idea stage. If you want to read it, you may have to write it yourself...

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Tommygunner70 on Mon 14 Apr 2008 - 11:54

@West Nile wrote:You like the sound of it too tommy? it's still in the works however, we'll have to wait

As a Hardcore Triela fan... how can it not? I really feel that Triela deserved better in live you know? better then what she has in cannon.

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by West Nile on Mon 14 Apr 2008 - 23:50

@Tommygunner70 wrote:
@West Nile wrote:You like the sound of it too tommy? it's still in the works however, we'll have to wait

As a Hardcore Triela fan... how can it not? I really feel that Triela deserved better in live you know? better then what she has in cannon.

you mean "better in life" right?

Well i hope sasahara starts with it first then. i just don't see the magic in Triela x Hilshire as much as i see Triela with someone closer to her age...

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Guest on Tue 15 Apr 2008 - 0:37

you mean "better in life" right?

Well i hope sasahara starts with it first then. i just don't see the magic in Triela x Hilshire as much as i see Triela with someone closer to her age...

Might as well write things my own. Anyone ever have the idea of Triela in her previous life? Before she was kidnapped and mutilated?

As a Hardcore Triela fan... how can it not? I really feel that Triela deserved better in live you know? better then what she has in cannon.

Then there will be no 'Gunslinger Girl' who goes by the name 'Triela' if she received a better life. She'll be somewhere in Europe, laughing with his family, his little brother, and his mom and dad.

...hey, in fact I think I'll write that...if there's time

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by West Nile on Tue 15 Apr 2008 - 0:40

ive thought of it but then, wat will it be about... triela playing tea party, playing with friends, going to school, crushing on boys, making fun of nerds... yawn...

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Guest on Tue 15 Apr 2008 - 0:46

ive thought of it but then, wat will it be about... triela playing tea party, playing with friends, going to school, crushing on boys, making fun of nerds... yawn...

...a better life indeed...

...
...
...


Until Hillshire steps up and saw her...

Hillshire: TRIELA!!
Triela: Who!? (kidnapped)
Hillshire: I MUST TAKE YOU TO THE AGENCY!!
Triela: W-WHAT?? YOU GOT THE WRONG PERSON!!
Hilshire: NO! I SAW YOU IN MY VISION! YOU'RE MY OPERATIVE!!
Triela: HUH????
Hilshire: I AM A HANDLER!!! I PICKED A GIRL!! I PICKED A GIRL!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAA!!!!!!!!!!!
Triela: HELP!! A PEDO KIDNAPPED ME!!!!!!!

-and so the plot goes-

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by West Nile on Tue 15 Apr 2008 - 0:50

... Triela don't die!!!!

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by LoC978 on Tue 15 Apr 2008 - 8:17

@Danjo3 wrote:
Fomoria wrote:Except that, at least in my opinion, the second generation of cyborgs are going to be a lot better at social manipulation and probably wouldn't ever end up in the way of Pino's violence anyway.

The first gen are something of a damn SWAT team in the way they act, there's no point in trying to get them to do anything beyond kill all the targets or protect their handlers, who have to spend half their time making sure their girl isn't doing something to put both of them in danger and therefore are less effective at doing the work they ought to be doing. The second generation will be better able to make judgement calls on their own initiative and therefore can really contribute to the active counter-terrorism work that the girls were, all along, intended to do.
Then let me ask you this - what’s the point of making them cyborgs and conditioning them in the first place. The qualities you think are so great are those of a run of the mill, everyday agent. By your logic, turning Petra into a cyborg was a big waste of money and effort. It was pointless.
Seconded, Danjo. Additionally: they already have section one to act as infiltrators and intel gatherers. Section two is the SWA SWAT team.
To me, the purpose of the stage two cyborgs seems to be something that was brought up earlier: they're a testbed for applying cyborg technology to adults. Just a stepping stone to having highly trained, full grown, superhuman operatives. 'Course, they're gonna hafta work more on the whole lifespan issue before they get people to agree to it.
Fomoria wrote:Social manipulation is more than just using "sex appeal" to get what you want, so your idea that Pino would be immune is incorrect. If Pino were to threaten or attack outright any female he meets, then he's worse than useless for organised crime and domestic terrorism since he would be arrested too often to do anything of use.
I know this is just a collection of moot points now that Pinocchio's had his carotid artery severed by Triela's fingers, but...
Pino was pretty much immune to social manipulation. No, he didn't go around cutting up everyone who talked to him, but he did give anyone he didn't know the cold shoulder. Continuing to press socially while he's being cold, aloof, and even downright rude would just raise flags on both sides of the intel scene. At that point, Pinocchio would have gathered more information for the RF than the girl would for the SWA. Now he has an identifiable enemy. They already had that.
In short: Pino was much the same as the stage one girls in that he was, as you put it, a 'smart bomb'.

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 15 Apr 2008 - 8:42

@Danjo3 wrote:Then let me ask you this - what’s the point of making them cyborgs and conditioning them in the first place. The qualities you think are so great are those of a run of the mill, everyday agent. By your logic, turning Petra into a cyborg was a big waste of money and effort. It was pointless.
Quoted for truth, along with LoC's point about testbeds.

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Guest on Tue 15 Apr 2008 - 8:45

By your logic, turning Petra into a cyborg was a big waste of money and effort. It was pointless.

Can't agree less on that one. I think its more of an entertainment for the handler...

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Danjo3 on Tue 15 Apr 2008 - 10:16

@West Nile wrote:Well i hope sasahara starts with it first then. i just don't see the magic in Triela x Hilshire as much as i see Triela with someone closer to her age...
From what we’ve learned in chapter 54, Triela is easily legal. Now I don’t have to feel creepy when I think of her and Hillshire… getting to know each other better. :face:

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Guest on Tue 15 Apr 2008 - 11:01

@LoC978 wrote:
@Danjo3 wrote:Then let me ask you this - what’s the point of making them cyborgs and conditioning them in the first place. The qualities you think are so great are those of a run of the mill, everyday agent. By your logic, turning Petra into a cyborg was a big waste of money and effort. It was pointless.
Seconded, Danjo. Additionally: they already have section one to act as infiltrators and intel gatherers. Section two is the SWA SWAT team.

To me, the purpose of the stage two cyborgs seems to be something that was brought up earlier: they're a testbed for applying cyborg technology to adults. Just a stepping stone to having highly trained, full grown, superhuman operatives. 'Course, they're gonna hafta work more on the whole lifespan issue before they get people to agree to it.

Fomoria wrote:Social manipulation is more than just using "sex appeal" to get what you want, so your idea that Pino would be immune is incorrect. If Pino were to threaten or attack outright any female he meets, then he's worse than useless for organised crime and domestic terrorism since he would be arrested too often to do anything of use.
I know this is just a collection of moot points now that Pinocchio's had his carotid artery severed by Triela's fingers, but...
Pino was pretty much immune to social manipulation. No, he didn't go around cutting up everyone who talked to him, but he did give anyone he didn't know the cold shoulder. Continuing to press socially while he's being cold, aloof, and even downright rude would just raise flags on both sides of the intel scene. At that point, Pinocchio would have gathered more information for the RF than the girl would for the SWA. Now he has an identifiable enemy. They already had that.
In short: Pino was much the same as the stage one girls in that he was, as you put it, a 'smart bomb'.

First, let me answer both Danjo's and the points you made in the first paragraph using my own words.

The purpose of the girls is to protect their handlers, as evidenced by the fact that they have an obsessive need to protect a given person, instead of loyalty to an organisation or principle. They are meant to be discrete protection for operatives infiltrating domestic terror organisations. That is why small girls were chosen initially; children are often overlooked as a credible threat, and girls are not associated with violence either. However, the first line of cyborgs were failures because they demanded too much attention from their handlers, which impaired the capacity of their handler to actually perform the job they need to. The fact that the first gen are used as a shock force or for assassinations is because the SWA is improvising with what they've ended up with.

The second generation are better at social manipulation (they seem to be more like normal people by way of mentality, and will be getting training from the people they protect) and more able to act on their initiative and that allows them to avoid impairing their handlers in the attempts to socially infiltrate groups. They are not intended to independantly socially infiltrate, but are protection for those who do and have to learn to do it as well because they're no longer above suspicion. The fact that the second generation are better at social manipulation is not the intention, but a necessary precursor to their being useful and also, I suspect, a side-effect of some of the other changes between the two generations.


Now for your third paragraph.

Sure, he'd give her the cold shoulder, but he cannot assume that she's an enemy. If she were to pose as somebody who might normally end up entering the building he is staying within and played the role even satisfactorily she could end up being left alone with semi-free reign of his residence and able to look through his belongings (so long as she didn't leave any traces). Worst comes to worst, they only learn that he's a paranoid person that watches any workmen. If anything, the fact that Pino doesn't like interacting with most people is going to make him more vulnerable to deception because he's not used to identifying it.

Oh, did you think social manipulation is getting the person to incriminate themselves using their own mouth? A lot of it is simply choosing the right thing to ask for in the right way so that you can achieve a limited goal rather easily, with said limited goal giving you access to the information needed to incriminate them.

(In many ways, this discussion is helping me get a lot of things straight in my head. This is why I like arguments, the knowledge growth that results from trying to win.)

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by LoC978 on Tue 15 Apr 2008 - 14:48

Fomoria wrote:The purpose of the girls is to protect their handlers, as evidenced by the fact that they have an obsessive need to protect a given person, instead of loyalty to an organisation or principle.
As Jean once said: "The problem lies within their brainwashing procedures. I now see that the system could use some improvement."
I don't think that obsession was what they were shooting for with the stage ones; I'm pretty sure that was an unintentional byproduct of a simple loyalty program within the conditioning.
I really don't think the stage twos were what Jean had in mind... the difference in conditioning, yes. But the reduced combat effectiveness...?
Fomoria wrote:They are meant to be discrete protection for operatives infiltrating domestic terror organisations
I do believe that I've found the main point we disagree upon. Infiltration by a fratello team is very short-term. Their actual purpose is the assassination/capture of a specified target. At what point is a fratello team ever tasked with actual infiltration of a terrorist cell... for the purpose of intelligence gathering? Never. They're the weapons of the Agency, not the eyes.
Fomoria wrote:If she were to pose as somebody who might normally end up entering the building he is staying within and played the role even satisfactorily she could end up being left alone with semi-free reign of his residence and able to look through his belongings (so long as she didn't leave any traces).
That would work only if RF safehouses were set up by idiots...
Canonically, he lived entirely alone until Franca and Franco. They never had a maid, a butler, or anyone else living with them (with the exception of Franca's family on the vinyard). The only person ever found on the premises (Aurora) was held at gunpoint and tied up.
Fomoria wrote:Oh, did you think social manipulation is getting the person to incriminate themselves using their own mouth? A lot of it is simply choosing the right thing to ask for in the right way so that you can achieve a limited goal rather easily, with said limited goal giving you access to the information needed to incriminate them.
if a person you don't know refuses to answer your questions with any more than a noncommital grunt, then what good are said questions? If he very bluntly tells you to leave him the hell alone, and you stick around... are you not acting suspiciously? In a way that most people wouldn't?

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Wileama on Tue 15 Apr 2008 - 21:01

Okay first off I found an old thread were we talked a bit about this previously.

Anyway I stand by my belief that the second gen is a development test bed, and a cost saving measure. That makes a lot of intrinsic sense. I also see a lot of good insight on Fomoria's part. However some of the points are only half developed, and some of the reasoning is a bit on the shaky side. First of all LoC is right, the girls are meant to be assassins first, shields second. Any issues result from the second issue can be resolved through adjusted conditioning. I disagree that the second generation is a shift in primary focus, so much as modus operand.

Lets compare for a moment the first generation, and the second generation. When the first gens are looking to kill someone they bust down the door, and start throwing some lead around. They rely on their innocent appearance, and ability to shrug off damage to set them up for a kill. Second gen girls can not soak damage the way a first gen can. Using the same modus operand as the first gens is not a good idea. They have to be able to do it from time to time, but it's shouldn't be their focus. Instead Petra seems to use her social skills to slide up next to the enemy in order to get the kill. She investigates the area, and learns what she can about her opponents. Then when possible she gets close to the target. This takes advantage of the older body, and helps to cover combat weakness. It's not always an option, but it is the preferred option.

The Second Gens may be part of a tech development cycle, but they still have to do a job to justify that development. It makes sense to have them be useful at something. Their primary goal still is assassination. However shifting their focus slightly as the second gens comes online makes sense. They are adjusting their mission, and tactics to best use their new technology. Increasing the roll the cyborgs play in intelligence would not only make sense as a way to help develop more independent cyborgs, but also as a way to undercut section one. You have to admit there doesn't seem to be a lot of love between the departments, and section two would love the power of swallowing section one.

However all of this hinges on the fact that the other second gens are much like Petra. Something that as of yet we can't confirm. It would make sense when explained this way, but it's still possible there is a better explanation.

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Guest on Tue 15 Apr 2008 - 23:42

@LoC978 wrote:
Fomoria wrote:If she were to pose as somebody who might normally end up entering the building he is staying within and played the role even satisfactorily she could end up being left alone with semi-free reign of his residence and able to look through his belongings (so long as she didn't leave any traces).
That would work only if RF safehouses were set up by idiots...
Canonically, he lived entirely alone until Franca and Franco. They never had a maid, a butler, or anyone else living with them (with the exception of Franca's family on the vinyard). The only person ever found on the premises (Aurora) was held at gunpoint and tied up.
Fomoria wrote:Oh, did you think social manipulation is getting the person to incriminate themselves using their own mouth? A lot of it is simply choosing the right thing to ask for in the right way so that you can achieve a limited goal rather easily, with said limited goal giving you access to the information needed to incriminate them.
if a person you don't know refuses to answer your questions with any more than a noncommital grunt, then what good are said questions? If he very bluntly tells you to leave him the hell alone, and you stick around... are you not acting suspiciously? In a way that most people wouldn't?

Oh, so safehouses all have redundant plumbing and electrical systems? Nobody ever entering is a perfect situation until something breaks down or a fire breaks out or any number of situations that are unpredictable and disruptive. Unless Pino or your republican goons are trained firefighters, plumbers, electricians, architects, building inspectors, paramedics, glaziers or engineers you are going to have to, at some point, let people into your house, because they know what you don't and this is valuable to your convenient way of life.

So, yes, people who are not Pino will have entered that house at some point and he knew about them - and that means that he is vulnerable to social manipulation. Manipulation does not mean "I say just the right things to me and you tell me all your crimes and future plans", it means tricking people into giving you what you want through whatever way necessary; this includes pretending to be someone else in order to gain access to their home for the purposes of gathering evidence.

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by West Nile on Wed 16 Apr 2008 - 7:23

Fomoria wrote:So, yes, people who are not Pino will have entered that house at some point and he knew about them - and that means that he is vulnerable to social manipulation. Manipulation does not mean "I say just the right things to me and you tell me all your crimes and future plans", it means tricking people into giving you what you want through whatever way necessary; this includes pretending to be someone else in order to gain access to their home for the purposes of gathering evidence.

I just realized that the only cyborg capable (just capable, not able) of doing this is Petra. given that Marco is going to make a 2nd gen girl another Angie (im sure it's gonna happen) the only 2nd gen girl that can do what you think it can do is d one trained by Sandro. in short the whole discussion is useless since 2nd gens are not for social manipulation they are for blowing padania heads off less efficiently!

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by LoC978 on Wed 16 Apr 2008 - 8:13

Fomoria wrote:Oh, so safehouses all have redundant plumbing and electrical systems? Nobody ever entering is a perfect situation until something breaks down or a fire breaks out or any number of situations that are unpredictable and disruptive. Unless Pino or your republican goons are trained firefighters, plumbers, electricians, architects, building inspectors, paramedics, glaziers or engineers you are going to have to, at some point, let people into your house
I really think you overestimate how long he ever stayed in one place. I'd estimate less than three months, with the exception of Franca's vineyard. How often does any of that crap happen to you? For me, not even every year. Maintenance on safehouses generally happens when noone is occupying them.
So, to break down your list a bit (rules for an assassin to live by):
Firefighter: if a fire breaks out, the place has attracted unwanted attention. You leave immediately, and sleep in a car if you have to.
Plumber: If the toilet breaks, and you can't jury-rig it to work at all, you call to higher and request a new safehouse. If none is available, you deal with the stink until you can leave... or, again, you leave and sleep in a car if necessary.
Electrician: electricity isn't a necessity of life. You live with no power for awhile.
Architect, building inspector, glazier, engineer: WTF? If the place is falling apart, you don't stay more than a night. Leave, sleep in a car.
Paramedics: if you need a paramedic, you've already screwed up badly. You try to get to someone you know who can help you before you die. If you go to a regular hospital, you'll most likely be killed by one of your comrades. If you die before reaching help, noone will admit to having known you.
Fomoria wrote:because they know what you don't and this is valuable to your convenient way of life.
Not everyone expects to live a life of convenience. Assassins are among those who don't.
Fomoria wrote:So, yes, people who are not Pino will have entered that house at some point
and I maintain: not at any point that he occupied the place.
Fomoria wrote:Manipulation does not mean "I say just the right things to me and you tell me all your crimes and future plans", it means tricking people into giving you what you want through whatever way necessary; this includes pretending to be someone else in order to gain access to their home for the purposes of gathering evidence.
They're free to come in at any point the place is unoccupied, which is most of the time.
Nile wrote:in short the whole discussion is useless since 2nd gens are not for social manipulation they are for blowing padania heads off less efficiently!
It's not useless. We're educating here.
Although you do have a point. Social manipulation is section one's job, and they don't try it on assassins. They infiltrate the social circles of the people who actually make decisions within the RF. Those people are quite vulnerable to the manipulation that Fomoria speaks of. Assassins just kill whom they're told, and know nothing of why.

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by West Nile on Wed 16 Apr 2008 - 8:27

@LoC978 wrote:
Nile wrote:in short the whole discussion is useless since 2nd gens are not for social manipulation they are for blowing padania heads off less efficiently!
It's not useless. We're educating here.
Although you do have a point. Social manipulation is section one's job, and they don't try it on assassins. They infiltrate the social circles of the people who actually make decisions within the RF. Those people are quite vulnerable to the manipulation that Fomoria speaks of. Assassins just kill whom they're told, and know nothing of why.

but the whole discussion was "there is use for 2nd gens because they are used for Social Manipulation" with that job filled by sec 1 we can go back to saying that 2nd gens are useless.

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Danjo3 on Wed 16 Apr 2008 - 9:33

@West Nile wrote:but the whole discussion was "there is use for 2nd gens because they are used for Social Manipulation" with that job filled by sec 1 we can go back to saying that 2nd gens are useless.
Quoted for truth.

What hooked me to GSG in the first place is that the girls are assassins. Cold blooded, ruthless assassins. If I ever feel like I want to see Petra play sleuth, I’ll just go out and but a Nancy Drew book.

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Guest on Wed 16 Apr 2008 - 13:11

@LoC978 wrote:
Fomoria wrote:Oh, so safehouses all have redundant plumbing and electrical systems? Nobody ever entering is a perfect situation until something breaks down or a fire breaks out or any number of situations that are unpredictable and disruptive. Unless Pino or your republican goons are trained firefighters, plumbers, electricians, architects, building inspectors, paramedics, glaziers or engineers you are going to have to, at some point, let people into your house
I really think you overestimate how long he ever stayed in one place. I'd estimate less than three months, with the exception of Franca's vineyard. How often does any of that crap happen to you? For me, not even every year. Maintenance on safehouses generally happens when noone is occupying them.
So, to break down your list a bit (rules for an assassin to live by):
Firefighter: if a fire breaks out, the place has attracted unwanted attention. You leave immediately, and sleep in a car if you have to.
Plumber: If the toilet breaks, and you can't jury-rig it to work at all, you call to higher and request a new safehouse. If none is available, you deal with the stink until you can leave... or, again, you leave and sleep in a car if necessary.
Electrician: electricity isn't a necessity of life. You live with no power for awhile.
Architect, building inspector, glazier, engineer: WTF? If the place is falling apart, you don't stay more than a night. Leave, sleep in a car.
Paramedics: if you need a paramedic, you've already screwed up badly. You try to get to someone you know who can help you before you die. If you go to a regular hospital, you'll most likely be killed by one of your comrades. If you die before reaching help, noone will admit to having known you.
Fomoria wrote:because they know what you don't and this is valuable to your convenient way of life.
Not everyone expects to live a life of convenience. Assassins are among those who don't.
Fomoria wrote:So, yes, people who are not Pino will have entered that house at some point
and I maintain: not at any point that he occupied the place.
Fomoria wrote:Manipulation does not mean "I say just the right things to me and you tell me all your crimes and future plans", it means tricking people into giving you what you want through whatever way necessary; this includes pretending to be someone else in order to gain access to their home for the purposes of gathering evidence.
They're free to come in at any point the place is unoccupied, which is most of the time.
Nile wrote:in short the whole discussion is useless since 2nd gens are not for social manipulation they are for blowing padania heads off less efficiently!
It's not useless. We're educating here.
Although you do have a point. Social manipulation is section one's job, and they don't try it on assassins. They infiltrate the social circles of the people who actually make decisions within the RF. Those people are quite vulnerable to the manipulation that Fomoria speaks of. Assassins just kill whom they're told, and know nothing of why.

Okay, firstly, even if said safehouses are only in use for a few months at a time there will still have to be someone who looks after it. They will be vulnerable to bluffing your way in and planting bugs. The advantage of bluffing your way in is that most of your traces will be covered by the expectations of the person who knows you came in and believes you to be a normal workman.

I remember having pointed out that Petra would never really come into contact with Pino, so I don't mind dropping that particular line of argument. As for the list of services needed, well, attacks on the staff that check over the house whilst its not in use still work using those professions as cover. As for paramedic; one wrong step and you break a bone, then there's no reason not to make use of the fine hospital facilities of Italy (though if you happen to have inoperable bone cancer as well, too bad).

As for assassins living a life without conveniences? So why do they demand so much cash? They can make the equivalent of a years worth of wageslavery in a few months of effort, but why? Bribes and security concerns don't take that much wealth when you're providing some of the details yourself and know what is truly effective, and they'll likely work more than once a year, so one can only assume they earn more per year than a wageslave and that money goes into something. Like, say, more comfortable and convenient living arrangements. Somehow, I don't think Pino would choose to stay in a hovel if there was a mansion available. We can conclude that assassins do care about modern conveniences because few people don't, and they generally get some kind of mental benefit from not using them.

I also never stated that the second generation were intended to exclusively perform the job of social manipulation; they exist for the same reason as the first generation - to protect valuable CT assets. They just happen not to prevent those assets from performing the most useful of CT work. It just so happens that they're more capable of independant work and therefore in a better position to use social manipulation to achieve their aims (which means staying as close to their handlers as possible whilst in dangerous territory).

As for the idea that the girls were always inteded to be assassins; you have the MP, the Military and various special forces and black ops units that are better at this (numbers and training and reliability), so why create another experimental unit when you can simply invest in existing assets with known outcomes? Protecting your existing assets is one of the ways of getting more out of them and agents that go amongst the enemy in their colours have a good potential yield and it's generally attrition rates that keep them in line with other assets so far as benefits go. The reason the girls act as assassins is because their package is a failure due to a number of psychological limitations.

Also, assassins don't work on political entities; you can't kill memes off by killing off the extreme carriers.

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 16 Apr 2008 - 14:22

Triela Vs Pino.

There is a contradiction I have always seen, that in the first meeting with Mario Bossi, Triela fought hand to hand against a couple of his captors, and won. This does give Triela enough training in street fighting. Question is, at what level?

Pino is defiantely a black belt in one or more of the Martial Arts, as taught by his ex-CIA mentor John. To get to that level, one has to know how to react without thinking and how to move as a reflex.

Triela vs. normal people, and even slightly trained fighters, there is no match.
Triela vs. Pino, here is where the problems lie.

The problem With Triela vs. Pino is that in the first mission, she was told by Hillshire to 'bring'emback alive', thus, she could not kill them. This held her back. In being arrested, Pino fought back and fought to kill or maime. Triela wanted to detain him. This proves the lack of training on her part. "When in fighting a criminal force, use the amount of force needed to stop and detain the criminal. If the criminal uses extra force in trying to escape or finish his crime, up your level of force until you can stop the criminal. This includes using lethal/deadly force."

Hillshire gave Triela added training, and it was this training that saved her from being killed by Pino the second time. She was too emotionally tied to the fight, which is a bad thing. But once she realized that Pino was fighting for keeps- thats when she let him have it.

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by LoC978 on Wed 16 Apr 2008 - 14:51

Fomoria wrote:Okay, firstly, even if said safehouses are only in use for a few months at a time there will still have to be someone who looks after it. They will be vulnerable to bluffing your way in and planting bugs. The advantage of bluffing your way in is that most of your traces will be covered by the expectations of the person who knows you came in and believes you to be a normal workman.
Very true. Now you just have to identify and plant bugs in all of the safehouses they could possibly flee to. We're talking the efforts of an entire organization for months to bring down one man. One man who only knows who he is to kill at a given moment. Worth the effort...? I think not. Much easier to get to him from the top. Remove his support structure, and he'd have eventually been hunted down and killed through conventional surveillance and an overwhelming assault. Not to mention the benefit of actually damaging his organization.
Fomoria wrote:As for paramedic; one wrong step and you break a bone, then there's no reason not to make use of the fine hospital facilities of Italy
Sure, if they're controlled by the same people you work for. If you're an RF assassin stuck in southern Italy, though...
Fomoria wrote:I also never stated that the second generation were intended to exclusively perform the job of social manipulation; they exist for the same reason as the first generation - to protect valuable CT assets. They just happen not to prevent those assets from performing the most useful of CT work. It just so happens that they're more capable of independant work and therefore in a better position to use social manipulation to achieve their aims (which means staying as close to their handlers as possible whilst in dangerous territory).
There are far better ways to achieve that, which would draw less notice. Like what Alessandro did while working for section one... or what James Bond always seems to do. Somehow I just don't see a young cyborg girl being useful in that... no matter how well conditioned, she's still conspicuous (even dressed as a teenage prostitute, she'd make it seem you should have other things on your mind than what you're asking for. She'd just be another risk for blowing your cover.
Superhuman strength and reflexes are next to useless outside combat. The handlers would be better served with beefed up support teams, if that was really their job. Which, and I reiterate: it isn't. They're the Social Welfare Agency Special Weapons And Tactics Team. Nothing more.
Fomoria wrote:As for assassins living a life without conveniences?
I never said they live a life without conveniences. I said they don't expect convenience. As in: it's nice to have when you can afford the time to appreciate it, but you don't bitch piss and moan when you have to do without.
Fomoria wrote:As for the idea that the girls were always inteded to be assassins; you have the MP, the Military and various special forces and black ops units that are better at this (numbers and training and reliability), so why create another experimental unit when you can simply invest in existing assets with known outcomes?
I'd imagine it was first and foremost as a testbed for new technology, second because their other agents were being identified too quickly due to their training. They were predictable...

crap... back to work with me...
(8 hours later)aaand back home.
Fomoria wrote:Also, assassins don't work on political entities; you can't kill memes off by killing off the extreme carriers
true, but if they're only one small way that you're attacking the problem... especially if the problem is rooted among the rich... what better way to fight rich, pampered supporters of terrorism, than with terror inflicted on their person? (well, aside from freezing all their assets)

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by Guest on Thu 17 Apr 2008 - 13:47

@LoC978 wrote:
Fomoria wrote:I also never stated that the second generation were intended to exclusively perform the job of social manipulation; they exist for the same reason as the first generation - to protect valuable CT assets. They just happen not to prevent those assets from performing the most useful of CT work. It just so happens that they're more capable of independant work and therefore in a better position to use social manipulation to achieve their aims (which means staying as close to their handlers as possible whilst in dangerous territory).
There are far better ways to achieve that, which would draw less notice. Like what Alessandro did while working for section one... or what James Bond always seems to do. Somehow I just don't see a young cyborg girl being useful in that... no matter how well conditioned, she's still conspicuous (even dressed as a teenage prostitute, she'd make it seem you should have other things on your mind than what you're asking for. She'd just be another risk for blowing your cover.
Superhuman strength and reflexes are next to useless outside combat. The handlers would be better served with beefed up support teams, if that was really their job. Which, and I reiterate: it isn't. They're the Social Welfare Agency Special Weapons And Tactics Team. Nothing more.
Fomoria wrote:As for the idea that the girls were always inteded to be assassins; you have the MP, the Military and various special forces and black ops units that are better at this (numbers and training and reliability), so why create another experimental unit when you can simply invest in existing assets with known outcomes?
I'd imagine it was first and foremost as a testbed for new technology, second because their other agents were being identified too quickly due to their training. They were predictable...
(8 hours later)aaand back home.
Fomoria wrote:Also, assassins don't work on political entities; you can't kill memes off by killing off the extreme carriers
true, but if they're only one small way that you're attacking the problem... especially if the problem is rooted among the rich... what better way to fight rich, pampered supporters of terrorism, than with terror inflicted on their person? (well, aside from freezing all their assets)

Sex, sex, sex... Why is it that you guys're always obsessed with it?! It's like people can't understand a close relationship between a group of guys and girls that doesn't revolve around them having sex - like someone can't pretend to interested in the political cause of a group of domestic terrorists just to get acces to tasty information to feed to the government.

And if a person in a sort of shallow relationship (sex alone is pretty shallow) with family members of high ranking people in a group isn't under more scrutiny than the girlfriend/lover/friendly acquaintance of the new guy, then there's no way the organisation can work secretly; they might as well be phoning in their plans to the authorities. As for the mods being useless; you know what the entire purpose of a bodyguard is, right? To prevent someone from coming to harm and kill or detain those attempting to harm them. If that does not involve demanding combat, then I have no damn clue what does.

As for the girls bringing some new ideas to their organisations; who are they being trained by? Oh, yes, members of said organisations... Yeah, totally unpredictable conditioned and dogmatic order-following cyborg killers.

As for terrorising the rich; the rich have more power and generally more credulity than poor people (not wanting for anything tends to lend more worth to your words) so terrorising them is one of the best ways for you to begin to gain the true ire of some of the most powerful people - you can't terrorise the powerful easily - and for word to get out to the public about what you are doing.

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Re: feelings about Pino?

Post by LoC978 on Thu 17 Apr 2008 - 23:05

Fomoria wrote:Sex, sex, sex... Why is it that you guys're always obsessed with it?!
Sorry, it's just all this talk about Petra... it pretty much just leads right in, y'know?
Fomoria wrote:...like someone can't pretend to interested in the political cause of a group of domestic terrorists just to get acces to tasty information to feed to the government.
true, but what the hell do you need a cyborg for in that situation?
Fomoria wrote:And if a person in a sort of shallow relationship (sex alone is pretty shallow)...
I... I'm not shallow! Well, okay, for anything beyond friendship... Wink
Fomoria wrote:...with family members of high ranking people in a group isn't under more scrutiny than the girlfriend/lover/friendly acquaintance of the new guy, then there's no way the organisation can work secretly; they might as well be phoning in their plans to the authorities. As for the mods being useless; you know what the entire purpose of a bodyguard is, right? To prevent someone from coming to harm and kill or detain those attempting to harm them. If that does not involve demanding combat, then I have no damn clue what does.
awright, awright, they do make good bodyguards. It's not their primary duty, but they'll do in a pinch. Problem is, it's like you think they're spending millions of euros on a damned contingency plan. One doesn't James Bond his way into a party of terrorist highrollers expecting a fight. That'd be idiotic, no matter the firepower you have concealed in your 'date' (unless it's a nuke for a suicide mission).
Fomoria wrote:As for the girls bringing some new ideas to their organisations; who are they being trained by? Oh, yes, members of said organisations... Yeah, totally unpredictable conditioned and dogmatic order-following cyborg killers.
there's a HUGE difference between a few months of training in firearms and blending in put into a little-girl-cyborg, and years upon years of training and experience put into a valued counter-terrorist operative. The little girl isn't going to have the sort of disciplined bearing and well-educated speech patterns that a good CT operative has. That is why they're harder to spot. Well, that and the fact that very few people feel threatened by the presence of a little girl.
Fomoria wrote:As for terrorising the rich; the rich have more power and generally more credulity than poor people (not wanting for anything tends to lend more worth to your words) so terrorising them is one of the best ways for you to begin to gain the true ire of some of the most powerful people - you can't terrorise the powerful easily - and for word to get out to the public about what you are doing.
when you work for people who are just as, if not more powerful... well, they can sort it out upstairs. Also, I'm not talking about threats over the phone or any of that sophomoric bullshit. I'm talking about practically untraceable, ruthless killings of family members, friends, and business associates. Random ones. Nothing jumps the gun quite like a paranoid rich person...

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