Fleda Claes Johanson

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 28 Oct 2008 - 17:23

Kisk- No. Theories abound however.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 28 Oct 2008 - 17:36

Okay.

When it comes to the patronymic of "Son of Johan", the Swedish spelling is "Johansson" and it is the most common last name in the country. This is said to be distinctly different from the Danish/Norwegian spelling ("Johansen") as well as the spelling used in English ("Johanson").

Now both Fleda and Claes are said to be Germanic in origin, the former feminine ("swift") and the latter masculine ("victorious people"). I can't find either as a "common" (top 200) name for a Swedish girl.

So what do we think of the possibility that her father was Swedish and her mother was German? And her mother named the child?

It would also serve as a possible explanation as to why Raballo chose Claes and not Fleda, since handlers seem to prefer "male" names for their cyborgs.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 28 Oct 2008 - 19:24

I always voted for Claes being the daughter of immigrants from some Nordic country. Sweden was my first bet, as the name Johansson is pretty common there.

Kisk's theory is okay.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 28 Oct 2008 - 21:36

Kiskaloo wrote:It would also serve as a possible explanation as to why Raballo chose Claes and not Fleda, since handlers seem to prefer "male" names for their cyborgs.
Not really. The theory I pose this; in both the Manga "Vegetable Garden" and the Anime "Promessa", Rabello was not to fond of giving Claes a name. He thought that he would be given a cyborg to train, complete with its own name, history and prebuilt knowledge and that would be the end of the story. So in giving her a name, he felt that he would be attached to her like some pet- something he did not want.

He chose Claes because it was the easiest thing for him to do. He studied up on her history and past life by force (Jean giving him her records). He learned of her name, family life, likes and dislikes, and of course her history. He also learned that she had a middle name. Parents do not call children by their middle name unless they are in big trouble. Thus, this would in his mind keep Claes tied to her former self while giving her a new identity. (Its also the same reason why he gave her her old glasses when he was about to leave.) Like it or not, Rabello fell for Claes as much as she did for him. It would have been interesting to see if had he lived, where that relationship would have went.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 28 Oct 2008 - 22:01

Well I do agree with you that I think Raballo felt this was more like just training a new recruit to do a job. Jean did refer to the job as an "instructor" and while that is one aspect of a handler's duty, there are many, many others.

So I agree he didn't seem to be prepared to serve as a mentor/teacher in addition to a pure instructor. "Promessa" does expand the back-story, showing that Raballo saw her just after her cybernetic augmentation, where in "Vegetable Gardens" they just appear as a fratello after Jean makes the recruiting pitch with him.

He also expected the girls to have a bit more...well, common sense. In "Vegetable Gardens", she spent the entire day shooting - in "Promessa", it was the rest of the day, all night, and into the next. Even the rawest of military recruits eventually "gets the hint" and goes and finds the Sergeant... Though it is a testament to HK that you can put a few thousand rounds through it without issue. Wink

On the flip side, Raballo said a good soldier reads. So I think he read her dossier not under duress, but because he's a good soldier. It is clear at first he didn't really care for her and I still believe her initial responses to him (the "let me be your legs" comment) was driven by the conditioning and not her own feelings. They hadn't been together long enough, IMO.

We assume that she became a daughter to him and he a father to her over those times at the lake because we're sentimentalists. I don't expect they were talking about the latest Serie A games, but on the flip side, they need not have been talking about deep issues and bonding as family, either. Yu kept us in the dark and I imagine it was not out of spite or his not giving it any thought other then he liked to draw camping scenes. "Promessa" also left no clues.

Now we know that he was worried about the conditioning. And he came to feel that how the girls were being used was wrong. But his concern seems to have applied to all the girls, not just Claes. I understand he could not just "spirit her away" from the Agency because of the medications needed and the need for access to the specific brand of healthcare they needed. But I also think he had no small amount of control over how she was treated, so it's not like he was powerless to protect her.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 6 Nov 2008 - 17:41

Triela said in her interview with Fermi (not an exact quote), "It is hard at times to tell the difference between conditioning and love."

OR as Ringo Starr answered in Sgt Pepper Side 1 Song 2:
"Do you believe in love at first sight?
Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time."

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Danjo3 on Fri 7 Nov 2008 - 2:34

We never got to see enough of their relationship to draw any definite conclusions as to just how Claes felt about him. It’s just as possible as not that towards the end, she was starting to have romantic feelings for him. People tend to see her as one cold fish (no pun intended) but she seemed pretty gushy the first time they went to the lake.

Here’s what we know about the girls feelings for their handlers so far:

Henrietta – Romantic
Triela – Romantic
Elsa – Romantic
Petra – Romantic
Angie – More then likely father daughter.

In other words, if you’re a cybog of section 2, odds are you’re going to fall for your big bro. Triela herself pretty much confirmed this when she told Fermi that, “Most of the girls here are.”

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 7 Nov 2008 - 10:38

Danjo3 wrote:In other words, if you’re a cyborg of section 2, odds are you’re going to fall for your big bro. Triela herself pretty much confirmed this when she told Fermi that, “Most of the girls here are.”

If you are a Generation 1, the conditioning pretty much insures that. Rico and Elsa - and even Claes, at least in the beginning - should be proof enough of that. Plus the girl's own comments throughout the manga state that is the case.

That being said, I fully agree that some handler's actions end up replacing or transmuting the conditional love for emotional (Henrietta and, now, Triela. Probably Angie, at first, though her emotions may still be original even if Marco no longer loved her back after they wiped her mind testing the drugs).

It seemed pretty clear that with Petrushka and the other Generation 2s were not conditioned to love their handlers, but Alessandro's actions towards Petra both stirred those emotions within her and told her it was okay to express them.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by TTIO on Fri 7 Nov 2008 - 12:41

ElfenMagix wrote:Triela said in her interview with Fermi (not an exact quote), "It is hard at times to tell the difference between conditioning and love."

OR as Ringo Starr answered in Sgt Pepper Side 1 Song 2:
"Do you believe in love at first sight?
Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time."

With a little help from my friends. Pretty epic song Very Happy

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 8 Nov 2008 - 22:15

Honestly, I don't know if you can really call the effect of the conditioning drugs or Henrietta/Elsa's feelings for the handlers a 'romantic attraction'.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 8 Nov 2008 - 22:35

In Henrietta's case, I think it is the equivalent of a schoolgirl's crush on her teacher.

In Elsa's case, I'd say it was psychotic infatuation.
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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 9 Nov 2008 - 1:39

Meanwhile, back in Japan, in a 1000 yen shop...

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 9 Nov 2008 - 3:02

Kiskaloo wrote:In Henrietta's case, I think it is the equivalent of a schoolgirl's crush on her teacher.
I agree and let’s face it, a crush is a romantic attraction. As far as Elsa is concerned, I think her feelings go a little beyond that of a schoolgirl crush… Ok, maybe a lot beyond.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 9 Nov 2008 - 12:12

Danjo3 wrote:As far as Elsa is concerned, I think her feelings go a little beyond that of a schoolgirl crush… Ok, maybe a lot beyond.

I still believe Yu had Henrietta offer her explanation of what she thought happened as proof of how the actual event did go down.

And Henrietta admitted she would do the exact same thing as Elsa did if she loved someone who didn't love her back.

And then we have Henrietta and Claes both ready to kill their own people to protect their handlers.

So is/was this an unseen side effect of the conditioning? Was what was supposed to be "platonic/fraternal" love instead become "possessive/obsessive" love?

Or is this what happens when you don't use enough conditioning? Is it the conditioning that prevents the girls feelings from becoming...well, dangerous?

Lauro ignored Elsa, yet she came to love him to the point of not wanting to live without him - or having him live without her. Henrietta admits to be capable of the same, but since Giuse is "so good" to her, she harbors no such thoughts.

It would be nice to know what level of conditioning Lauro had Elsa on. Considering how much he ignored her, it might very well be the minimal level (since he couldn't be bothered to care). We know Henrietta has minimal conditioning, so that she is capable of the same could be support of such a theorem.

On the flip side, we have Jean and Rico. Jean treats Rico better then Lauro treated Elza, but he doesn't shower her with love and affection. He does, however, keep her on a strong dose of conditioning medication. So perhaps the drug is working properly in Rico and she harbors only familial/platonic love for Jean.

As for Triela, I would imagine her conditioning lies somewhere in the middle. She's not as "doped up" as Rico is, however she seems to have more then Henrietta. Since she and Angelica are seen being treated together at one point in the program's past, a possible theory is they were both conditioned at the same time. Early on, she admits she loves Hillshire, but she also admits it is partly because of the conditioning and partly because of her own feelings for him from their time together. Much later, she becomes fully aware of all that he has done and sacrificed for her and at that point the conditioning may no longer plays into it and she may now love him of her own volition.

That is certainly the vibe I get from Chapter 56, and in Chapter 58 she seems more comfortable showing affection towards Hillshire. My Japanese isn't all that hot, but after Beatrice tells Triela she found Henrietta crying in her room, I am guessing Henrietta tells Triela she can't remember things her diary said happened and that triggers some fear in Triela, as well, since she's older then Henrietta (though it may mean Henrietta is one of the early G1 cyborgs and not latter).
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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Nachtsider on Sun 9 Nov 2008 - 17:42

Kiskaloo wrote:
If you are a Generation 1, the conditioning pretty much insures that. Rico and Elsa - and even Claes, at least in the beginning - should be proof enough of that. Plus the girl's own comments throughout the manga state that is the case.
I forgot to point out something that undermines this statement of yours, Kisk. Namely, Beatrice.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 9 Nov 2008 - 18:48

But our ganga-girl is not in love widh her Bernardo, but with da 5-finger plant...

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 9 Nov 2008 - 19:00

Nachtsider wrote:
Kiskaloo wrote:
If you are a Generation 1, the conditioning pretty much insures that. Rico and Elsa - and even Claes, at least in the beginning - should be proof enough of that. Plus the girl's own comments throughout the manga state that is the case.
I forgot to point out something that undermines this statement of yours, Kisk. Namely, Beatrice.

I know she comes across with all the emotion of a dead mackerel, but at the end of Episode 9 of -Il Teatrino- it looks like she might be trying to be more sociable. In Episode 8, she responds to Claes with the declaration that she doesn't know what "fun" is and that she does not "laugh or feel moved" though at the end of Episode 9 she asks Rico if seeing "Tosca" had "moved her". I also noted that Claes loaned her the book she was reading in Episode 8 (The Elfen Knight). Smile In Chapter 58, she notices Henrietta is in real distress and comments about it to Triela. She also watches Triela comfort Henrietta, though her expression, while not the usual "blank", it is admittedly not anything of note.

In the end, while it is true Beatrice has never been shown to say she loves Bernardo, neither has she been shown to say she doesn't. So it's a wash, there. That being said, I would argue the body of evidence is that she was conditioned to love Bernardo because the other Generation 1's did and she is (almost assuredly) a Generation 1.
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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Nachtsider on Sun 9 Nov 2008 - 19:18

lol @ Elfen.

I suppose you do have a point there, Kisk, although I still maintain that what the conditioning instills isn't quite 'love', but a deep sense of loyalty and the need to serve and protect.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 9 Nov 2008 - 19:23

Nachtsider wrote:I suppose you do have a point there, Kisk, although I still maintain that what the conditioning instills isn't quite 'love', but a deep sense of loyalty and the need to serve and protect.

I agree that is how it is with the Generation 2 models.

And it may very well have been the goal for the Generation 1 models, but I am of the opinion that they "got the ratios wrong in the mix" and what they ended up with was a stronger emotional bond then they had planned. And it's causing them some issues.

Of course part of it may be that we're talking about girls who are 10-14 when they were converted. And then had their memories wiped to varying degrees. And were raised as emotionless killers. Even a mad dog loves it's owner because it is an authority figure, if nothing else. Their handlers are the clear "Alpha Males" in their lives and it might just be an instinctual response on their part to have a strong emotional attachment to them.
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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 10 Nov 2008 - 5:06

Kiskaloo wrote:As for Triela, I would imagine her conditioning lies somewhere in the middle. She's not as "doped up" as Rico is, however she seems to have more then Henrietta.
I’ve always been under the impression that Triela, along with Henrietta, is on a minimal amount of conditioning.
Kiskaloo wrote:In the end, while it is true Beatrice has never been shown to say she loves Bernardo, neither has she been shown to say she doesn't. So it's a wash, there.
True. There’s no clear indication as to what it is Beatrice is feeling for Bernardo. She very well may have strong feelings for him. Different people show their emotions in different ways. Maybe Beatrice, like some of the other girls, suffered some extreme emotional and physical trauma prior to her Agency career. This would definitely explain why she has a hard time expressing what it is she feels inside.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 10 Nov 2008 - 10:18

Danjo3 wrote:I’ve always been under the impression that Triela, along with Henrietta, is on a minimal amount of conditioning.

You're right. Hillshire notes to Giuseppe that he won't drug her any more then he has to.
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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by MikhailN on Fri 12 Jun 2009 - 5:38

Danjo3 wrote:True. There’s no clear indication as to what it is Beatrice is feeling for Bernardo. She very well may have strong feelings for him. Different people show their emotions in different ways. Maybe Beatrice, like some of the other girls, suffered some extreme emotional and physical trauma prior to her Agency career. This would definitely explain why she has a hard time expressing what it is she feels inside.

Remember Henrietta was quiet and asocial at first? We may be seeing the same with Beatrice

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by West Nile on Fri 12 Jun 2009 - 8:54

it would apear to apply for all, the only one who "orignally" wasn't anti social seems to be Triela

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 12 Jun 2009 - 9:10

MikhailN wrote:Remember Henrietta was quiet and asocial at first? We may be seeing the same with Beatrice
If that were true, it would mean that Bea's fairly new. And I don't get that impression from her.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by West Nile on Sat 13 Jun 2009 - 4:44

thus my proposition, conditioned girls are made shy, what would you do if u just wake up not knowing what just happened?

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Totoum on Sat 13 Jun 2009 - 7:16

West Nile wrote:thus my proposition, conditioned girls are made shy, what would you do if u just wake up not knowing what just happened?

I think that also fits with Rico being the most lively girl,she's the only one who remembers her past.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 13 Jun 2009 - 10:20

Totoum wrote:
West Nile wrote:thus my proposition, conditioned girls are made shy, what would you do if u just wake up not knowing what just happened?

I think that also fits with Rico being the most lively girl,she's the only one who remembers her past.

She's the only one who we've been told remembers their past.

We know Petrushka does not, due to an error during the conditioning process that wiped all her memories. I feel it is pretty clear Triela and Henrietta don't, though memories are starting to leak through.

Angelica did, at least up until her conditioning (she asked Marco about her parents). She never mentioned them afterwards, so they may have taken them away or she did, and Yu never found a need to tell us (until she started her breakdown).

As for the rest, we appear to have no evidence either way.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by West Nile on Sat 13 Jun 2009 - 22:18

i suppose that they didn't see a need to since her past wasn't that traumatic

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 13 Jun 2009 - 22:20

West Nile wrote:i suppose that they didn't see a need to since her past wasn't that traumatic

We don't have any insight whatsover on Claes' life prior to the Agency, other than her father was a professor and she liked books.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by West Nile on Sat 13 Jun 2009 - 22:23

well i have 3 guesses

1. she was really sick

2. she was orphaned

3. her parents are assholes

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by boomer_gonz on Sun 14 Jun 2009 - 2:28

I'm rolling the dice on number 1.

I've seen many a parent who would hand over their child to experimental procedure permanently if the end result was the restoration of their child's health.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by MikhailN on Sun 14 Jun 2009 - 3:06

boomer_gonz wrote:I'm rolling the dice on number 1.

I've seen many a parent who would hand over their child to experimental procedure permanently if the end result was the restoration of their child's health.

I don't think so. If her parents cared about her so much, they must be wondering where their daughter went off to after that procedure.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 14 Jun 2009 - 9:54

MikhailN wrote:I don't think so. If her parents cared about her so much, they must be wondering where their daughter went off to after that procedure.
I agree. I’d be more then a little suspicious of an organization who said, “We’ll cure your child, but you can never see her again.”

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 14 Jun 2009 - 18:58

I have always speculated that Claes was a victim of her own family. On the outside, daughter of a professor, and her mother probably just as much of a professional and expert on her field; both with a dark side of not liking each other when their marriage became sour. But they remained together for Claes' sake. Despite the negative actions towards each other, they both loved Claes as she did them.

One day, guessing around New Years, since her photos shows that its about Christmas time, her parents get drunk and get physical. Claes steps in to stop the fight and she is the one who gets seriously hurt, put into critical due to the actions of either one of both parents accidentally giving it to her. I would speculate that she may have been accidentally pushed out a window by her father. As such, she ends up in the hospital and into the arms of the SWA.

For both parents not to ask about as to what happened, its an either or case where both ended up in jail for this or one ends up dead and the other in jail. Any further relatives who might come asking for her will simply be told that Claes DOA'd when she got to the hospital.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by maverick375 on Sun 14 Jun 2009 - 19:48

Not to get another thread derailed onto Petra, but I thought of something...

It seemed pretty clear that with Petrushka and the other Generation 2s were not conditioned to love their handlers, but Alessandro's actions towards Petra both stirred those emotions within her and told her it was okay to express them.

This is a bit of an interesting idea. We can already tell that the Gen 2's are not 'controlled' to the same extent as the Gen 1's. I think the tech-teams learned that the "love" code was actually causing more problems than it was worth in control. Elsa capped Lauro over love, and the rest are increasingly confused by it as they mature, with the exception of Triela, who has finally learned a lot about it and has been able to define herself within it.

Petra was likely to fall for Sandro from the start. She was likely to fall for any young, attractive stud of a handler. I base this on Elizabeta's interest in Alexei, her young, handsome stud of a dance partner back in Russia. The only thing holding her back from a relationship was her dancing, relationships being something forbidden or not-encouraged by the school. She wants to love.

So... We've seen that the original personality of Petra has been coming out more, so why isn't her love for Sandro the result of her wanting to love from before? Is it so hard to believe that her decision is not as affected by the agency's workings as some here think, especially given the largely problematic usage of 'the love code'?

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 14 Jun 2009 - 20:27

maverick375 wrote:So... We've seen that the original personality of Petra has been coming out more, so why isn't her love for Sandro the result of her wanting to love from before? Is it so hard to believe that her decision is not as affected by the agency's workings as some here think, especially given the largely problematic usage of 'the love code'?

Because that would no longer make Triela "special" and, well, we evidently just can't have that. NO

Personally, I like your theorem.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 15 Jun 2009 - 4:13

There is no “Love Code." The conditioning makes the girls unquestionably loyal to their handlers. Love is just an unavoidable side affect. Petra is a good example of this.

And as far as Petra wanting to love before she came to the Agency? That could easily apply to all the girls. Hell, that applies to everyone.

It should also be noted that while Petra (a gen2) basically gave into her feelings for Sandro overnight, it took Triela (a first generation) 10 volumes.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 15 Jun 2009 - 9:27

That's because Triela is a cock-tease. Wink

Henrietta and Elsa were already hopelessly besotted with their handlers from the moment we first laid eyes on them in the manga/anime.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by MikhailN on Mon 15 Jun 2009 - 10:03

Kiskaloo wrote:That's because Triela is a cock-tease. Wink

Henrietta and Elsa were already hopelessly besotted with their handlers from the moment we first laid eyes on them in the manga/anime.

Hope you're joking on that first part...

I think Triela wasn't so attached to Hilshire because she's more cynical. She knows that whatever she's feeling is because of the drugs, so every time she feels like 'declaring her undying love' to Hilshire she'll shrug it off by telling herself that it's the conditioning talking Bong hit . You know what's the irony? She and Henrietta are getting the lowest doses and yet they're more attached than Rico.

As for Henrietta and Elsa, they're too young to understand what they're going through so yes, their reactions would be a bit...extreme

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 15 Jun 2009 - 10:35

I think Triela was not strongly attracted to Hillshire because Hillshire treated her in a very "hands off" manor, much like Jean does to Rico, though Jean tends to just ignore Rico outside of when he wants her to do something.

So Triela had no real reason to "bond" with Hillshire, but Hillshire engaged her enough socially and emotionally that she remained mentally and emotionally stable.

I'm still not totally unconvinced that Triela's attraction to Hillshire is not in a way due to the massive guilt-trip that has been laid upon her at finding out just what Hillshire sacrificed to both save her and stay with her. I think many young girls dream of their "Prince" or "Knight in Shining Armor" and I can easily see Triela now viewing Hillshire though that lens. Even if she is chronologically/mentally around 17-18, I do not believe she is emotionally that mature because her life is so sheltered and regimented.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 15 Jun 2009 - 17:35

Kiskaloo wrote:That's because Triela is a cock-tease. Wink.
:lol!:

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 15 Jun 2009 - 17:35

Danjo3 wrote:There is no “Love Code." The conditioning makes the girls unquestionably loyal to their handlers. Love is just an unavoidable side affect. Petra is a good example of this.

And as far as Petra wanting to love before she came to the Agency? That could easily apply to all the girls. Hell, that applies to everyone.

It should also be noted that while Petra (a gen2) basically gave into her feelings for Sandro overnight, it took Triela (a first generation) 10 volumes.
Actually, Dancers as a subgroup tend to do things that most would not in a normal mindset becuase they think it will heighten their careers. Thus Dancers of Elizabetta's caliber tend to become sexually active before most teen girls do; and this is because they have to give in to the pressures of their careers. If you were part of a school/troop and 100 - 1000 other girls besides you were veying for a position on the play, and most of you are of equal caliber, rank and standing, you will do things in order to make yourself #1 to the promoter/director/instructors' eyes. Having dealt with many dancers who have went to Alvin Ailey and Julliard, and even in those in lesser dance schools, time and time again they have all told me of this. Scarey part is- they feel that it is alright... and normal.

So, Elizabetta wanting love before coming into the agency, that is a norm for some dancers who find that they must promote themselves in certain attributes. I would not be surprized if she did slept with her friend before she left for Italy for her cancer thearpy... which failed and thus created the cyborg Petra. Dancers are in fact very loney people... sometimes sad and lonely people.

Triela admits to her feelings (see anime and manga of V1- Elsa Incident) of love for Hillshire a very long time ago. But it is how one reacts to those feelings depends on how they think they should be dealt with. I would be sure that Hillshire taught Triela from the beginning to be at a arms-length relationship where respect is #1 in the relationship. Thus Triela has acted accordingly to Hillshire's wishes, and believes that it made him happy. But it is this arms-length relationship that keeps Triela from showing her true feelings for Hillshire when she needed him the most, and when rules were either bent or broken, she did not know how to deal with them (Pino series in V2/3 and V6- I think). She finally got her head together in V10.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by MikhailN on Mon 15 Jun 2009 - 20:02

ElfenMagix wrote:
Danjo3 wrote:There is no “Love Code." The conditioning makes the girls unquestionably loyal to their handlers. Love is just an unavoidable side affect. Petra is a good example of this.

And as far as Petra wanting to love before she came to the Agency? That could easily apply to all the girls. Hell, that applies to everyone.

It should also be noted that while Petra (a gen2) basically gave into her feelings for Sandro overnight, it took Triela (a first generation) 10 volumes.
Actually, Dancers as a subgroup tend to do things that most would not in a normal mindset becuase they think it will heighten their careers. Thus Dancers of Elizabetta's caliber tend to become sexually active before most teen girls do; and this is because they have to give in to the pressures of their careers. If you were part of a school/troop and 100 - 1000 other girls besides you were veying for a position on the play, and most of you are of equal caliber, rank and standing, you will do things in order to make yourself #1 to the promoter/director/instructors' eyes. Having dealt with many dancers who have went to Alvin Ailey and Julliard, and even in those in lesser dance schools, time and time again they have all told me of this. Scarey part is- they feel that it is alright... and normal.

So, Elizabetta wanting love before coming into the agency, that is a norm for some dancers who find that they must promote themselves in certain attributes. I would not be surprized if she did slept with her friend before she left for Italy for her cancer thearpy... which failed and thus created the cyborg Petra. Dancers are in fact very loney people... sometimes sad and lonely people.

Triela admits to her feelings (see anime and manga of V1- Elsa Incident) of love for Hillshire a very long time ago. But it is how one reacts to those feelings depends on how they think they should be dealt with. I would be sure that Hillshire taught Triela from the beginning to be at a arms-length relationship where respect is #1 in the relationship. Thus Triela has acted accordingly to Hillshire's wishes, and believes that it made him happy. But it is this arms-length relationship that keeps Triela from showing her true feelings for Hillshire when she needed him the most, and when rules were either bent or broken, she did not know how to deal with them (Pino series in V2/3 and V6- I think). She finally got her head together in V10.

It all boils down to the girls' personality and 'previous life.' They're doing what they're doing now because of what they were like before. The handler's training plays a part too, but I don't think that it plays a big role if not Lauro would be alive.

I disagree with your bit about Triela. Chapter 4 page 27 finds her linking conditioning to love, which struck me as strange because it shows that she knows exactly what's going on (wonder who told her? Hlshire?). She probably has been feeling that kind of thing for a while but simply wrote it off as conditioning. I have no idea what she would have done if she knew that Hilshire wasn't doping her as much. As for 'arms length' relationship, Jose does the same, and you can go ahead and compare Henrietta and Triela.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by West Nile on Tue 16 Jun 2009 - 22:50

ElfenMagix wrote:I have always speculated that Claes was a victim of her own family. On the outside, daughter of a professor, and her mother probably just as much of a professional and expert on her field; both with a dark side of not liking each other when their marriage became sour. But they remained together for Claes' sake. Despite the negative actions towards each other, they both loved Claes as she did them.

One day, guessing around New Years, since her photos shows that its about Christmas time, her parents get drunk and get physical. Claes steps in to stop the fight and she is the one who gets seriously hurt, put into critical due to the actions of either one of both parents accidentally giving it to her. I would speculate that she may have been accidentally pushed out a window by her father. As such, she ends up in the hospital and into the arms of the SWA.

For both parents not to ask about as to what happened, its an either or case where both ended up in jail for this or one ends up dead and the other in jail. Any further relatives who might come asking for her will simply be told that Claes DOA'd when she got to the hospital.

sounds like a mix of angie's story and a fanfic Laughing

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by MikhailN on Wed 17 Jun 2009 - 9:11

West Nile wrote:sounds like a mix of angie's story and a fanfic Laughing

The reason why it sounds like a fanfict is because it is. Strictly speaking, this bit is made up by a fan, so it is fanfiction.

As for why it resembles Angie's story, I'm at a loss Puzzled . Why couldn't it resemble Petra's or Rico's story? That one would be more likely.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 17 Jun 2009 - 16:49

MikhailN is right. The above mentioned Claes story is a fanfict based on my idea and research on Claes' Beginnings in the Manga Chapter "Vegtable Gardens" and the Anime Episode "Promessa".

Claes' last shown pics were of her at age 10 at Christmas time. (seems a lot has to happen to the girls at about Xmas time...) After that, she is in the SWA. Up to this point, this would make her one of the oldest girls but youngest cyborgs of the lot.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by MikhailN on Wed 17 Jun 2009 - 19:52

ElfenMagix wrote:Claes' last shown pics were of her at age 10 at Christmas time. (seems a lot has to happen to the girls at about Xmas time...) After that, she is in the SWA.

Come to think of it, you're right. I really think that it has something to do with the Christmas story about an innocent child born to save everyone but has to die in the process. Strange that a Japanese artist throws a reference to Christianity but hey, it won't be the first time.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 17 Jun 2009 - 22:11

If Claes ends up on a cross, I'll resign as admin of the board and quit being a rabid GsG Fanboy.

Then again, if this happens, it would prove that Yu secretly lurks amoung this site...

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Nachtsider on Thu 18 Jun 2009 - 0:00

Those pre-Agency photos of Claes never gave me the impression of a robust or healthy child. She looked rather frail and fragile to me. My guess is she succumbed to an illness, and the SWA stole her away for revival as a cyborg. Not a very dramatic story, but one that works nonetheless.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by MikhailN on Thu 18 Jun 2009 - 5:06

ElfenMagix wrote:If Claes ends up on a cross, I'll resign as admin of the board and quit being a rabid GsG Fanboy.

Then again, if this happens, it would prove that Yu secretly lurks amoung this site...

I usually avoid references to religion, politics and race in my posts but this was too good to miss.

No she won't. After all it wasn't stated that she was born on Christmas day. The Christmas thing was more symbolic than anything else. The girls are dying slowly (I imagine dying on a cross to be slow) and yet they don't seem to mind and go about their daily lives doing some amazing stuff and saving people's lives.

Now this would tie in nicely with one of the themes of the manga: Humans as a means to an end. To borrow an argument from Robert Heinlein's book Starship Troopers, is it prudent to risk the lives and sacrifice 20 men to save less than 20 people? Would you trade 20 potatoes for 1 potato? Are humans potatoes? study Puzzled Usual heady stuff.

All that being said, some wise chap would point out what this implies. Guys, I think Yu just took a heavily veiled pot shot at Christianity. The best part? It's so subtle that no one realizes it. My literature teacher would have been proud Awesome!

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by TTIO on Thu 18 Jun 2009 - 8:16

Full of Win

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 18 Jun 2009 - 22:39

Dont take my words too literally, Mikhailn.

And to answer your questions- as I did for Heinlein almost 30 years ago (both his wife and sister taught at my old high school, so he often dropped by... he was such a snob, I hated him as a person for it!), it would depend on who the lesser amount of people were. if it were the average Joe on the street, I would say not. If it were to a group of highly educated and sophisicated medical staff or influencential scientific minds that could later the course of history- then I would say yes.

But mind you, the military and police of many nations do put up large sums of personnel and equipment on the line for every tiny hostage situation that happens... Every nation, except Germany. In Germany, if some looney group bent on the hinge of hostage taking makes its move, the German law enforcement will only take names of the hostages and send police to their family homes and give an appology- and then sent a termination squad to kill everyone- hostage and hostage taker. Because of this, Germany has not had a highly organized hostage taking situation in decades. ('72 Munic Olympics would not count, and even then- everyone was killed in the end. They had to do what they can in the spotlight of the world, and then do the deed in the cover of darkness.)

Me, personally, it would depend on who it is, what is happening, what are the odds, and who's watching me as I do my work. I work best in secret and when alone. My motto is, "If I'm damned for doing and damed for not doing, then I might well be damned for doing. Being damed for something I did not do is the stupidest reason to be damned for..."

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by sasahara17 on Sat 4 Jul 2009 - 4:31

Here I am in an undisguised attempt to revive Claes-chan's topic and get her to exceed Bice's 9 page thread (Fer Gloreh!).

Anyway, I'm in the process of writing a oneshot. A newly employed brilliant young professor, Stephanie Fan, proves all previously held theory of cyborg mechanics wrong by giving Claes the body of a woman in her mid-twenties. Booyah!

And so here is the question:

One the scale of 1-10, just how hot is Adult Claes, given that 'Sandro's porn mags gave Claes her proportions?

I will also need a beta soon. Any takers?

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 4 Jul 2009 - 9:22

sasahara17 wrote:One the scale of 1-10, just how hot is Adult Claes, given that 'Sandro's porn mags gave Claes her proportions?

Well I thought "16-year old Claes" looked pretty damn fine when she and Petra went on the sailing ship in Lake Maggiore in Chapter 34 and that was just Claes with some make-up and some gel in her hair.

That being said, the idea of Claes with a "porn star body" with breasts and hips in the 90-100cm range... NO

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by sasahara17 on Sat 4 Jul 2009 - 9:39

Ooookay... I'll drop the porn star body then and just turn her into an adult.

90-100 cm range... is it really like that? I didn't think it was THAT bad.

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 4 Jul 2009 - 9:49

sasahara17 wrote:90-100 cm range... is it really like that? I didn't think it was THAT bad.

Personally, the mid-to-high-80's works for me on a woman around 20 with a height of 165cm+.

I'm just not a "watermelon man"... Wink

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 4 Jul 2009 - 10:09

Did somebody say watermelons?

I mean, how much is all that in inches? Just curious. Razz

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 4 Jul 2009 - 10:16

35-39"

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

Post by sasahara17 on Sat 4 Jul 2009 - 10:33

Nachtsider wrote:Did somebody say watermelons?

I mean, how much is all that in inches? Just curious. Razz
OMG! *mental image scars Sasahara for life* That's it. I'm going for normal proportions!

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Re: Fleda Claes Johanson

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