Petrushka

Page 6 of 11 Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 5, 6, 7 ... 9, 10, 11  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by MikhailN on Sat 26 Dec 2009 - 19:43

@ElfenMagix wrote:[I recognized it too. But I am not here to grade him, for I would have rewritten everything as a comparative argumentative analysis for him and would have done so in 1/2 the words he has had.

Like you stated, he does make excellent valid points in his argument. But to me, he does not prove his point.

You're right. Stay in the university for too long and every piece of writing gets graded.

Oh, what was his point?

MikhailN

Forum Posts : 583

Registration date : 2009-06-06

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 26 Dec 2009 - 19:52

The problem with this is there is no Introduction of the argument, no thesis statement, no conclusion. All fails if it were to be graded. The points and proof thereof are excellent, but anyone can take such proofs and twist them to their argument's advantage.

So, there is no point because there is no into, no thesis, and no conclusion. This paper is graded as a fail despite excellent use of point usage. It is also a fail due to its length, because the average 'net reader would read it 1/2 way and just stop reading in frustration. I know I did the first time I read before going back and giving it a bit more attention that it deserves.

ElfenMagix

Forum Posts : 5682

Registration date : 2007-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Isochroma on Sat 26 Dec 2009 - 22:24

Correct. My writing dosn't conform to an academic standard - in this case by choice. I dropped out at grade 11. Never took any literature or writing classes, but did read a lot. Spent all my time reading, actually.

My apologies for playing a bit loose by not providing references for everything. The ideas are a mix that is a bit thin in this undergirding, I must admit. I'll make more effort to document the statements. A lot are drawn from a few pages among many hundreds that I've got to flip through very quickly. That's what lawyer's assistants and public prosecutors are for.

Poor Guellfi also regrets not having access to all the evidence at her hotel room - and complains about it - but I have only the excuse of waiting while WinRAR unpacks dozens of RAR files containing the precious pages that make the story a life of its own.

The writing happens because I wake up in the morning feeling the absolute need to write out what I'm trying to understand - to put all the pieces together to show the big and the small pictures all together. Lest I forget and lose them, like some precious shards of coloured glass on an endless beach. The pressure to get it out usually means no breakfast. Some things are just more important than eating Smile

Things like the love, the pain, the contradictions, the intensity of Petra and Alessandro! And of course the entire story, with all its complexities and ramifications.

Now for some more delicious speculation disguised as pseudoacademic writing... just kidding.

If Alessandro and Petra do become intimate - and this is not just a small possibility but a major likelyhood - what will happen within the larger context?

Will the higher-ups see what's happened through their cameras, mounted in each room? Alessandro would not likely admit it without interrogation. If they do find out one way or the other, will these managers decide to allow the relationship or will they terminate it using the various methods people in their position can use?

Another possibility is that Alessandro is not only able, willing and wanting of this relationship - which he's already indicated implicitly and explicitly - but that he could use it as a means to keep Petra working without protest. That kind of strategy will be tough, and Petra herself is already demonstrating her willingness to pull away 'I might hate you' if they can't come to the kind of holistic moral-emotional-intellectual agreement that will be needed in such a case.

The other pole of that means of manipulation is Petra's use of Alessandro's own growing love to pull him away from the Agency. If conditions are right and his feelings are strong enough, the two may escape the Agency. There are only two kinds of endings in that case: they remain free, or are hunted down and killed or captured by the Agency as its betrayers.

At this point the cluster of possibilities hasn't resolved itself down to a particular path, but always remember: the total genesis of every future is in its past and present. It is in those places that we must look carefully for clues that not only help to understand the story at all levels, but give an idea where it is headed.

Volume 8 page 23. Petra just fell on Alessandro during a mission. She's on top of him in a rather awkward yet intimate position. In the first panel he's off-guard. In the second panel, Petra asks him "what is it?", staring closely into his face. Indeed the social genius is off-guard - a very revealing situation. In the third and last panel, he replies: "you crush me.", pushing her head back with his hand.

Alessandro does his best to cover up his uncomfortableness with her being that physically close to him at an unexpected time. His awkwardness betrays his true feelings in an obvious manner. And his truthfulness makes him admit the reality on the next page, "Really, you are captivating". Petra sits beside him with a Cheshire-cat grin on her face, looking into his eyes.

On page 29 of the same volume, Petra wants to know his tastes in food: "I know none of your tastes concerning food." Alessandro replies: "you don't need to know", but Petra thinks it will be useful to have the information. Her last statement on the page is very revealing: "It's important to know the tastes of a person you love."

The next page shows Alessandro momentarily speechless. Quickly he then crafts the defensive reply: "I'll tell you one thing. I don't like redheads". Angry and a bit teary-eyed, Petra replies: "Is... Is it because of me you say that?".

Alessandro provides more - yet truthful - misdirection: "No, it isn't. I don't like women with red hair in general." The magic of a highly adept individual is to cloak truth within truth so that the totality amounts to a lie, or in this case a coverup.

On the next page (32), Petra has this for a reply: "But I don't want to change my hair colour!". Jokingly, Alessandro says: "Why not? I think blonde would suit you well." Petra will have none of it though: "Me, it's this colour I like". Alessandro again skillfully diverts the subject.

Finally on page 36, Alessandro has arrived at his apartment with Petra in the car. He tells her to stay and wait for him there, but she wants to come in. And she does! Only two pages later that hot passion drives her out of the car and to his doorway. Her quick deductive logic on page 39 finds his door number by connecting his pseudonym. At the end of the page she stands before his very door.

For the entire next page, Petra stands nervously, sweating and finally leaning against the door, wondering if she should go in. She is torn between disobeying his orders and her demanding desire to see his home. After this we are shown many pages of Alessandro's past, and how he was recruited into the Agency.

Now comes the interesting part. Page 96 of the same volume 8. Petra is in her maintenance cycle at the Agency, being questioned by a technician. "What does your handler represent to you?" he asks.

Petra replies: "He's a person I cherish." The tech asks her a most crucial question, "Do you use these words to express your loyalty?". By this he means the conditioning and any other brainwashing.

Petra's answer?: "No... my love."

The technician is taken aback: "Huh? Don't you confound your fidelity to your handler with romantic love?"

Petra is not confused though: "No... not at all."

Finally, on page 101, the technicians are talking amongst themselves. They're reviewing on a computer monitor the video of the interrogation. They watch as Petra admits that her love isn't a confusion of 'fidelity to your handler' with 'romantic love'.

One of the techs says: "What a suprise! This cyborg actually is in love."
Another says: "That really is something. It reminds me of Else de Sica."
The third asks, "Won't we intervene, Belisario?".

Belisario admits that in Elsa's case, "her love was imposed upon her". Petra's case is very different, though: "I don't think Petrouchka will reproduce the same error".

Finally, Belisario wraps up the scene: "If she has fallen in love, we have nothing to do with it. The concept of the new generation is to avoid a too great subjugation. Anyway... I'd like to see how this will end."

Indeed, I will also like to see where it will end. The techs don't care about it - they see it as something Petra has developed naturally of her own accord. The techs are in the business of maintaining and otherwise servicing the cyborg as an entity they are responsible for. They see her development in this area as fundamentally outside their field proper - which it is.

The techs are not administrators however. They are charged with maintaining the girls to working specifications, repairing them and any other related tasks.

No administrator in charge of policy has yet heard of the case, and the techs don't seem intent on informing higher-ups of this interesting new development. When they do - if they do - the shit may hit the fan.

To wrap up this commentary, one final scene that illustrates some points about Alessandro's technique and how it is both disturbing and revealing - through Alessandro's uncomfortableness and other 'mistakes' at critical points. Alessandro is an excellent socialite that can 'put on a face' and play a part to perfection.

On page 110, he says: "Our adversary is a woman who charms me..." to another agent while Petra looks on. She draws her gun, apparently angered by the other agent's statement: "so a Don Juan can even help the sake of the strategic section."

On the next page we find Alessandro chiding Petra for drawing her gun, telling her not to do so when she's angry. Petra replies that the agent had spoken to him inappropriately, "because it's only for the job... that you play Don Juan".

Yet on the next page, Alessandro asks her why she's still offended. Petra replies: "T... That's... That's because of my woman's heart." She's taken off-guard and comes up with a half-truth excuse: the woman's heart.

Finally on page 159 Alessandro invites Petra to his apartment: "Will you come to my place?". Petra is so taken aback by his now friendlier approach that she can only say "Huh?". She's unbelievably happy on the next page when he indicates he's not joking.

Seeing his apartment is quite a suprise too - all the bookshelves full of volumes of literature, and the other accessories of his broad lives. The plural lives that he was taught how to live by his own predecessor.

Moving on to page 136, Petra finally gets to the root of things: "But you wish that someone understood you, right? In truth, you are sad... You content yourself to observe, without taking risks."

The man throws the book at her, literally. He shouts back about her immaturity, about her being a cyborg... and finally asks: "On what conviction do you..." It's a very legitimate question - on what conviction could a being already so biased by conditioning make such overtures? and one I would ask my conditioned partner in such a circumstance.

Her reply is direct and honest: "It's because I love you!". On the next page we find the reply "And that, that's because of the conditioning! What do you want me to do with your pity?"

Petra is ready and replies: "It's different!", but right back at her comes Alessandro: "In what way is it different? If it is not due to the brainwashing... Prove it!"

So Petra proves it, not with love but with anger! In the next two pages she throws the book back at him, rips off his shades, and calls him a piece of shit, telling him that he understands nothing. Finally by page 168 she's breaking down into tears, telling him how much it hurts, even though she feels nauseous due to her passions interacting with the brainwashing/drug. Alessandro is impressed with her directness as she sits on the floor trying to hold back the vomit. The scene ends with him holding her there on the floor.

The perfection of Petra's demonstration is that she rebels against Alessandro - against her conditioning. Throwing the book at him - literally - and swearing at him, calling him nasty names - those things must have been hard.

The difficulty of fighting the conditioning and expressing her feelings as rage itself was a totally instinctive masterpiece. That was the only way she could show how she felt, and it was also the best. Precisely because of the conditioning, it was the only way to demonstrate the truthfulness of her love - and that the source of it was her own independent will, not that of the brainwashing. To show him the hate and anger and sadness of that love, in a way that opposed the conditioning itself so much that she was at the edge of vomiting.

She fought against that very conditioning to show him the truth, and did it in the most perfect way. That is a courageous being, and that is why she and Alessandro will become something far beyond what the other girls could ever hope for.

It is time for me to eat - I've been writing instead of eating all day.

Isochroma

Forum Posts : 24

Registration date : 2009-12-22

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 26 Dec 2009 - 23:44

There is a difference between girls in Petra's age and girls in the first Gen series. Thats what makes a teenager, a teenager. The younger girls are not fully developed and matured psychologically, emotionally, physically, educationally, and all the other facets that make a person what they are. The first Gens are still children. Petra is no longer a child. That makes a big difference alone.

Petra getting sick when she speaks against 'Sandro is conditioning kicking in. With this in mind, her psychology is now bent to his (and the agency's) will. Think about it, if you found out that every time you spoke up, you got violently ill, you would soon learn how to be quiet and accept things as they were after a while. The will will always be there to try and even want to go against 'Sandro, but the strength to carry through with it is not. This is conditioning to the Pavlov's extreme, and it will eventually become brainwashing. In fact it is already is brainwashing because the cyborg's brains were programmed before they went online.

Again, you prove your points with great examples of fact, but you again fail because you have not proven the point because you fail to see Perta as a cyborg and still think of her as a person whether in whole or in part. As a cyborg, her memory has been erased, her mind manipulated, her responses programmed. She may be freer to take actions, and she might be able to think for herself (like the others can, including the first gens), she fails in being able to go beyond her programming and this you fail to see.

ElfenMagix

Forum Posts : 5682

Registration date : 2007-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Isochroma on Sun 27 Dec 2009 - 0:18

ElfenMagix: my 'postcount' won't let me reply to your PM, so I'll do it here in very brief form. I am on permanent disability and live in Canada, so I don't need to worry about jobs. The disorganization you refer to is my laziness, having lived in near total isolation for many years. If you'd caught me a year after grade 11, I would have been sharper with the structure.

But now I'm out to pasture, just enjoying life as a stream of thoughts, held loosely together by that shiny old machine of logic they implanted in my skull. I was happy to leave that brainwashing, and continue to this day to educate myself at the highest possible rate. Going back to that meatgrinder would make me vomit like Petra is almost having to do in Alessandro's apartment - what an embarrasment for a future love so deluded that he cannot see her truth! Yet that is how the circumstance made it.

Your concern was really touching, and of course your writing style well-spaced and thought out. I quit being a tool for the system a long time ago, though - so thanks for the advice, but I'll proceed on the dead-end path I've got.

We're all going to die, but I intend to do so with a smile plastered on my face - not the kind that comes with a job or good income, but something else - the kind of thing Petra is trying to reclaim - even if it means destroying the beginnings of her comfort and losing a newfound love.

On your response in the thread, I agree that Petra's age - 16 - means that she not only qualifies as a teenager but as the potential love of Alessandro. It wasn't coincidence that Aida picked that age for her.

In the remainder of your points, I disagree. Like the other girls, Petra's brain is still fully human. The brainwashing is a drug, and maybe some other processes, but it is not brain replacement. That fact has been stated explicitly in the manga. Only her body is mechanized. That is why all the girls must regularly take the conditioning drug, besides other maintenance tasks.

And about your point of her eventually succumbing to conditioning, that is exactly the opposite of the truth. From her introduction to the last page - chapter 64 - she has become ever more independent, ever more challenging, and ever more wilful in her opinions and her expression of them.

Petra - that amazing being - is in the process of waking up, and growing up. At a disturbing pace too - a rate that, if my calculations are roughly correct, will put her in direct opposition to the Agency and perhaps even Alessandro in the next two to three volumes, unless Alessandro makes some very hard decisions or other unexpected events arrive in the story.

It's something the techs didn't count on, though perhaps they will smile or maybe even cry or scream as the results roll in. I'm not kidding about the screaming part either. If Alessandro agreed or simply wasn't present to show opposition, and if the other girls' defence of their handlers and the Agency was not a factor, she has enough freewill to put a bullet in the heads of every living being at the Agency. Enough reason too - the Agency is the integral other half to the terrorists and others it is tasked to kill, torture and arrest. Without it, the circle of violence and revenge might be broken. Might. All power tips on the invisible point of the unknown. She's too early to make that judgement yet.

She hasn't yet developed the level of competence, and doesn't yet have a concrete reason to do such a thing - or even to run away - but at the foundation that unmistakeable spark insists on spreading. Just like in the real world, she is a terrorist - one of the heart and with a big brain to boot.

Just like Castro [real world] who was described by the US security state as a 'rot' that might 'spoil the barrel' of US-installed and maintained Central American client-state dictatorships (see Chomsky), so too the independence of Petra's mind might spoil at least her employment at the Agency. Thanks to their greater conditioning, younger age and less rebellious personalities, the other girls aren't in any obvious danger of contracting the contagion.

Petra is still immature - which is why she expresses such spirit in only brief bursts and also why it is centered for now on rebellion towards her handler Alessandro.

If you had read my last paragraphs carefully, you would have noted that she fights and indeed wins over her conditioning to do something none of the other girls could contemplate: to physically and verbally assault her handler in a coordinated attack of rage fuelled by her very own shining passion!

That is personal power reigning supreme and triumphing over the power of conditioning. The combination of her questioning intelligence and heart full of love can and did become a firestorm that blew away any possibility that - at least with the current level of conditioning applied - she will be a mere tool in the hands of either Alessandro or the Agency.

Rather than decay of free will in the face of conditioning, Petra shows a consistent, progressive increase in free will and corresponding rebellion against conditioning, culminating in the scene I ended the final paragraphs of my previous post with.

Yu Aida is making very sure that his readers understand that Petra is not like the other girls in many ways. This is not just a case of one single attribute or another, but a whole collection of them. Her handler is also exceptional. Reread my posts and you'll find a sampling of the factors which merit this claim. Aida wants his readers to realize the implications of such a profound change - one that violates a basic commonality in storytelling - at least outside Japan - often taken for granted when it exists and rebelled against when it is absent. This violation of commonality is the rebellious spirit that permeates many a paradoxical ending of animes and mangas. When I say ending, I don't mean it in the strictest sense. Often the disruption to the expected plot, characters (often by introduction of a new character), etc. occur in the middle to late-middle of the work, though sometimes at the end.

If more people in this world had the heart, passion and unswerving intent of Petra, we'd be living in a different place in so many ways I can't count them all now. Aida is also lecturing to Japan's ossified, aged and in so many ways herdlike culture of conformity. The freethinker, hardheaded and with total confidence pushes to walk her own path: impeded by the most horrifically detracting circumstances - past washed away, present confined to the premises and jobs of the Agency, a being whose very body is manufactured, maintained and ultimately belongs to that Agency - she is nonetheless breaking the mould. The last vestige of her genuine self - her mind as embodied in her brain - refuses to succumb to the drugging, and worse, is making headway to defeat it.

This is more than a manga: it is the embodiment of a cultural dream. Aida is among the priests, dispensing wafers of bitter unconventionality to the sweet-sickened populace.

Even the techs are mystified and so is Alessandro - he wonders if it could be some artifact of her previous personality. We may never know. It is not knowing that is the beauty. The unknown is the ultimate provider and the systematizers of the known are merely pawns of the predictable. For that reason I didn't return to the brainwashing, and for that reason I love Petra: she is able and willing to be more than a tool, yet is still held back by lack of maturity, lack of knowledge and the most dangerous yet potentially opportune trap of them all: her true love for Alessandro.

The grass is always greener on the other side of the context.

Isochroma

Forum Posts : 24

Registration date : 2009-12-22

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Isochroma on Sun 27 Dec 2009 - 5:01

For some reason tonight my head drilled down to the case of Alessandro. Having read to chapter 64, I'm left with various conclusions as to his nature and the actions he could take in coming chapters and volumes.

Before I get into my own thoughts on the matter, I'd like to pose the question to others here: first, what do you think this guy Alessandro is going to do with Petra next, and why? Second, if it was you personally in his position at the end of chapter 64, what would you do?

Ok, now onto what he's likely to do, and what I would do in his place - from my position.

Sandro has a very valuable and unique combination of both a serious, conformist attitude and an independent state of mind. He's a natural watcher, not a fighter. During earlier training, it was noted by his superiors that he was so behind his colleagues in this department that his prime value was information gathering and 'human intelligence'. Yes, that blasted term for a huge collection of spies, infiltrators, casual and professional men of often unnoted description who slip through corridors unknown into the dripping, infectious mass of the human beasts in search of their prey.

His methods of intelligence are simple yet diligent: the magic pen and mini-notebook suffice. The events of note include subtle details both written and memorized, such as minor differences in accents, dress, context, and more. This is really skilled stuff that a lot of police today don't even do, at least in the way he can work more intimately with the subject, and do it without their knowledge of his true identity or intent.

The kind of inside information he can get is really valuable in a qualitative way, at the least. Without a partner of some kind, his value would also be limited. Alessandro was chosen to enter the project and did so, knowing only the basics of his new mission. Yet right from the beginning and with pronounced maturity, he handled the most difficult situations with Petra. Though all didn't work out as planned or had negative blowbacks, his efforts have been excellent considering the situation he walked in to.

Now he has the role of big brother to Petra, but considering her age and his, all kinds of other things start coming out of the woodwork. This is where even Alessandro's excellent social skills and acting begin to break down. At this point in publication, he's finally lost his cool while in his apatment with Petra. He yelled at her certain words that really summed up the core situation within his personality. That's normal too: it is the natural thing that comes up between individuals in a couple, and even unrelated individuals.

What's unnatural is that the guy can act pretty good most of the time, and since they've got duty together - she has to pretend to be his girlfriend, wife, sister, etc - he gets to spend lots of time with her playing the part.

There's also the elements of irritation that Alessandro must be feeling. The largest part of that is the redhead reminder, another part must be the increasing tension of having to deal with an upstart, independent-minded lass who questions everything.

Dealing with upstart rebels is not fun, even if you yourself are an upstart rebel. I know that one personally too.

Funny incident report: I was scanning for a certain page and hit p.157 of vol.6. Allesandro tries to get Petra to call him a "pezzo di merda" ie. a piece of shit.

She gets part of the phrase out before running to the sink and spewing. That's the power of conditioning.

By the way things are looking, I would say that very soon Alessandro will have to decide how to teach Petra. Once he told her that in order to act perfectly, she would not only have to be the person she was portraying on the outside - ie. clothes, mannerisms, etc. - but would have to become the person on the inside too.

That comment was the deepest he's gotten with her. He's quick in some ways, but slower in others. He takes orders from a command system but produces results using his own very personal techniques and the skill he employs them with.

Much of the future beyond chapter 64 will depend on that command structure. The missions he and Petra have yet to embark upon will be handed down from above, and may by their own influence make or break his relationship with Petra. Yet even despite the profound determinism, Alessandro is able to stay afloat and indeed be a valuable asset to his employer while retaining a wide breadth of creative freedom in his approach. It is an ideal job for a certain type of person, and he fits quite comfortably into his niche within the Agency. He's daring enough to take radical approaches yet still able to answer to authority.

Rather than flesh out the exact possibilities, I'd like to conclude by taking his characteristics and using them to understand what he might do in the future. It seem one of the key determinants might be his loyalty to the Agency versus his connection with Petra. Unless Petra ceases to excesively oppose the Agency's motives she will be noticed.

So far, Alessandro has taken a pragmatic approach to helping her - and himself to the fullest. That approach finds its limit in various discussions they've had. His recommendations to her are pragmatic in nature, but she is looking for moral truth and also appears to have found her true love.

That means that when the fun of new adventures wears out, those issues will come to the fore. It already is in a sporadic way, and has appeared often enough and in serious context to guess that Aida is using it to express something fundamental about Petra that will not only last through time but will be of centrality to the ongoing story - to the extent that it remains unsolved.

So another key determinant will be if Alessandro engages Petra at the level she's trying to engage him at. His answers as they are, are truthful and he believes them. So it isn't a show on his part, and Petra doesn't get mad at him in those circumstances for that reason. It must be admitted that Alessandro's explanations in the area of the Agency's darker methods, means, and higher-level policy sound like a line of neatly constructed justifications ultimately couched in the notion that 'we're bad but we destroy those who are worse, so it's ok'.

So that's my way of trying to answer question one. It's totally incomplete but time's up. Now the answer for question two, which is what would I do as a person in Alessandro's position?

Assuming entrypoint into chapter 65, and having up to that chapter as well, I would do a few things. Not many, but just a few simple ideas. These are also things I hope he would do in the upcoming chapters.

Firstly, engagement on their difference of opinion on the means, methods and morality of the Agency and, by proxy for it, Alessandro himself. For me that would consist of taking the lass out to some place unobserved, such as a nice eatery or some other location with snackage or a meal. Maybe by the ocean! Maybe in the evening, at sunset just the two of them on a sandy shore wiped clean by the endless crying eye of the ocean known as the tides. Just as the crying of a person's eye washes away the pain, so does the crying of the ocean's eyes wash away the grains of sand.

There Alessandro would figure out in basic conversation things like, "What do you feel about the work you're doing?". Or something like "Is it worth it to you to do this work, taking into account the goods and evils?". It can all be phrased more subtly, but it's just a basic kind of thing that might be found on some of today's job interviews.

Since personal motivation is much more important for second-generation cyborgs, and since Petra is unusually motivated and also unusually thoughtful, asking these questions is feasible and she ought to be happy to reply honestly.

Subtle interrogation is Alessandro's job, so he ought to be able to do it and if I was him, I would do it. The idea is to figure out how to fit such a rapidly growing, often prickly piece into the Agency puzzle. Yet it is far more!

Since in this example I'm deciding the higher level actions that Alessandro should take - but using his base characteristics as the foil for them - it can only be a synthetic hope unless by chance it's realized in the actual manga. So it's my hopes and wishes.

After finding out what her concerns are and listening to them in detail, Alessandro ought to apply a decent strategy depending on his values. The strategy might be to simply warn Petra of the dangers of rebellion due to the Agency's total control over her life, and presumably, death.

The strategy might also including distracting her energy - and potentially fulfilling his own very well-repressed desire - by engaging her at the intimate level. I'm talking about the stuff after kissing. That brings with it a whole set of new problems though. A total can of worms that are going to crawl all around messing up the old plot and causing who knows what havoc.

Yet, there is a total inevitability to the chance. Petra and Alessandro are in this area two forces acting as one - only temporarily separated due to circumstance and timing. Their pattern of convergence necessitates radical changes in how each deals with the other, and most of them have to be initiated by the guy who holds the formal responsibility and position of authority - Alessandro.

Petra, as a tool-in-the-making and much more, will become Alessandro's ultimate victory or a disaster, but nothing in-between. The pattern of her forwardness in some ways perfectly compliments Alessandro's quiet reserve and other passive behaviours and techniques.

The final, most important deciding factor is likely Alessandro's ability to admit that he has - for only the second time in his life - fallen in love, and with a redhead again. From that realization he can move forward and plan appropriately how to employ and manage a future with Petra.

And we come to the second and last of my two hopes for Alessandro: he must sort out his feelings for himself, and then tell them truthfully to Petra, or otherwise manage a plan to get those things done when it is safe to do so.

Until that time he is just an employer with a complex, and Petra is just an employee with a hardbody.

Isochroma

Forum Posts : 24

Registration date : 2009-12-22

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 27 Dec 2009 - 10:35

@ElfenMagix wrote:Think about it, if you found out that every time you spoke up, you got violently ill, you would soon learn how to be quiet and accept things as they were after a while.
At least Triela can tell Hillshire to go fuck himself, then stroll away with a smile on her face.

Danjo3
The Voice of Reason

Forum Posts : 2609

Registration date : 2007-09-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 27 Dec 2009 - 10:54

@Isochroma wrote:ElfenMagix: my 'postcount' won't let me reply to your PM, so I'll do it here in very brief form. I am on permanent disability and live in Canada, so I don't need to worry about jobs. The disorganization you refer to is my laziness, having lived in near total isolation for many years. If you'd caught me a year after grade 11, I would have been sharper with the structure...
Well, in spite of what you said about yourself, I'm glad that you have went beyond your boundries. But handicap is not an excuse to limit one's self. If I told you I was blind, in knowing how I function you would not believe me. But I am for the most part; as in my ultra sensitivity to light make it hard to cope on some bright sunny days than most. The retinal after images are not flushed out immediately when exposed to bright light and I end up in a white out condition, unlike the darkness most blind people complain about. But I do what I can with what I got; but enough of you and me.

I will go through your account and try to figure out why you cant answer PMs. As a member, you should have that right unless there is an anti spam thing running, and if so I'll exclude you from the list.

In the last two posts 'today' your points are much more clear. Again, points are well stated and examples cited well. But there is that component missing: She has an erased memory core, and everything she is going by she is trying to relearn. The drugs do not make it easier. And topping it off is that these cyborgs were built for their problem solving intelligence for site infiltration and target elimination. That means that they are hunter/killers by Terminator Standards. They are given orders and follow the orders directives to the best of the ability from which what the environments throw at them. Only a mind with a natural intelligence can do that, not an artificial one as of yet.

But there is that emotional component they still retain as being human. The conditioning drug takes are of much of it, as they do not fell remorse for killing their targets. Nor should they feel pity for them either, though some fanfict writers have done so with their OCs. But they stil need love, caring and understanding to make them continue to work. They need praises to make them feel good about what they do. To the extreme, it is the latter where the Lauro/Elsa team failed and self destructed in the end. Also to the extreme, is it the former why the Ernesto/Pia team succeeded to their own self destruction.

Personality is another facet one has to consider. It is the one thing that can not be erased by the conditioning programming process. That is why Claes is a bookworm, Henrietta is a spoiled brat at times, and Angie was always giving 110% or more. The personalities of the other cyborgs also applies for the same reasons. Petra as Elizabetta was a dancer of theatrical caliber. She was fast approaching Primadonna status if her bone cancer did not toppled her from her class' placement. She was an Alpha, who did not cared for those under her. She dealt with her classmates as to belittle them and telling them they were wrong and she was right. She did this with the others on the definition of Love to the younger girls and thus momentarily upset the balance Jose established with Henrietta with her confusion. Petra operates on a sexual level, the younger girls do not. Petra knows what it is that she has and is able to use it as bait where they others cant because of lack of knowledge and experience. Lastly, Petra herself does not know what Love actually is, though what she has she believes she is in it for intents and purposes of her relationship with 'Sandro. Petra is relying on emotional memories from when she was a dancer, another thing that the conditioning process can not erase, and is implying that her current feelings she has is based on that. It is not.

Petra, like the other girls, is drugged, conditioned, and programmed to portray some semblance of humanity while still running the killer cyborg routine. She is to function as normal as possible in the outside world until it is time to strike like the others. She can and does interact with the other cyborgs. She has been given false memories of training and equipment identification, along with names of people and places she has to know and function with- the one on top of the list is of her handler- 'Sandro. if she is in love with him it is because of these things that were done to her to make her fall in love with him. It was not a conscious choice she had made for herself, then again, when has love been a conscious decision by anyone in the first place? Rarely ever. Petra may seem to be independent, she is to the extent the leash around her neck allows her to be. Most of the time, 'Sandro is on the end of that leash. Some of the time, it is the agency. The problem is that she does not see it. She may think she is independent but she is not. Then again, many people to this day thinks that the world is flat and the sun goes about the Earth.

Petra has a lot going for her, but there is also a lot going against her. Since she knows little of what is right and what is wrong, she has to relearn every her morality once stood on. She has to use what she has to gain useful knowledge of the world around her and of the situation she is in. She may know but not understand that she is a cyborg for a reason. That reason she needs to figure out on her own while the pressures of everyday life gets to her. Thus far she is capable of handling that quite well.

ElfenMagix

Forum Posts : 5682

Registration date : 2007-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 27 Dec 2009 - 10:57

@Danjo3 wrote:
@ElfenMagix wrote:Think about it, if you found out that every time you spoke up, you got violently ill, you would soon learn how to be quiet and accept things as they were after a while.
At least Triela can tell Hillshire to go fuck himself, then stroll away with a smile on her face.
That says that Triela's level of conditioning is much lower than Petra's. And from the looks of the other girls, the same thing applies to them. Thus one can speculate that Petra's level of conditioning is quite high, higher than those of the first gen who do require a minimum of higher dose than the second gen. So in this case, Petra is drugged up to the point where that other cyborg in V9 wants to smack that smile off her face. Then again, at that level of conditioning, I doubt Petra would even feel it.

ElfenMagix

Forum Posts : 5682

Registration date : 2007-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 27 Dec 2009 - 11:33

The nice thing about Petra is that Sandro doesnít have to smack her in the face - the conditioning does it for him.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


ďI donít hate him specifically, itís the rest of you selfish adults I hold a grudge against.Ē
avatar
Danjo3
The Voice of Reason

Male

Forum Posts : 2609

Fan of : Hillshire/Triela

Original Characters : Biff & Little Britney

Comments : OC hater par excellence.

Registration date : 2007-09-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Isochroma on Sun 27 Dec 2009 - 16:56

I've been waiting for someone to mention Triela. Among the girls besides Petra, she has a suprising level of independence. Especially for a first-generation, her level of thought and even action stands out as atypical of her generation.

This isn't the thread to discuss Triela though. If I find the time I may post a more detailed analysis in the relevant thread.

Until then, I'll end by saying that Gunslinger Girl has been one of the most amazing, disturbing, complex and beautiful mangas I've ever read.

Its power, its pain; its losses and its gains are all a cut above the rest, and indeed keep my mind from any kind of rest too.

PS. For those who don't want to see the PhotoBucket "Bandwidth Exceeded" images on this board, just block these four images:

photobucket.com/albums/z301/lastfmbadges/a1/barpol.png
photobucket.com/albums/z301/lastfmbadges/a1/body-repeat.png
photobucket.com/albums/z301/lastfmbadges/a1/navbar2-1.png
photobucket.com/albums/z301/lastfmbadges/a1/quotecopy.png

They're just backgrounds and not essential for any functionality. As for the designer, I'd recommend to upload these to TinyPic or another image hoster that doesn't have such bandwidth limits.

Isochroma

Male

Forum Posts : 24

Registration date : 2009-12-22

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by MadHatChemist on Sun 27 Dec 2009 - 17:48

@ElfenMagix wrote:
Petra getting sick when she speaks against 'Sandro is conditioning kicking in. With this in mind, her psychology is now bent to his (and the agency's) will. Think about it, if you found out that every time you spoke up, you got violently ill, you would soon learn how to be quiet and accept things as they were after a while. The will will always be there to try and even want to go against 'Sandro, but the strength to carry through with it is not. This is conditioning to the Pavlov's extreme, and it will eventually become brainwashing. In fact it is already is brainwashing because the cyborg's brains were programmed before they went online.


avatar
MadHatChemist

Male

Forum Posts : 441

Location : Las Vegas

Fan of : Triela & Claes

Original Characters : None.

Comments : n/a

Registration date : 2009-02-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Totoum on Sun 27 Dec 2009 - 18:47

@Isochroma wrote:If I find the time I may post a more detailed analysis in the relevant thread.

You beat me to it,I was going to ask why you only post in this thread since you must have also like other gunslinger girl characters since your read the first 5 volumes before petra's introduction.

Another question,have you seen the anime adaptations or just read the manga?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"The day the child realizes that all adults are imperfect he becomes an adolescent; the day he forgives them, he becomes an adult; the day he forgives himself, he becomes wise."Alden Nowlan
"Happy is the one who's able to laugh at himself:he's sure to be entertained for a long time"

avatar
Totoum

Male

Forum Posts : 480

Location : paris

Fan of : claes

Registration date : 2007-11-20

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Isochroma on Sun 27 Dec 2009 - 19:26

I've seen the first series entirely, and watched episode 5 of Teatrino last night. Both series are beautiful, but very limited. They are like brief portraits of each girl and a bit of the larger context.

The animes are a good compliment to the manga, but can never replace its vastly greater expanse of detail, character - Petra is missing from both series - and time. I think Aida chose not to include Petra because her, Alessandro and their time in the story is far too complex to be distilled into one or even a dozen episodes of anime.

The subtle details - especially in the case of Petra - are absolutely crucial to show not only her own uniqueness, but also the elements of a qualitative break from the rest of the story that she and her handler represent. The nuances of her moral compass, how it is affecting Alessandro and her relations with the Agency. The situations where both her and Alessandro's love are revealed by small details of their interaction... none of these things could be captured in a consistent way by one or two anime episodes.

Rather than butcher the crucial breakthrough that she represents, he chose to exclude her entirely. I would have made the same choice. Same in my posts. On some other forums my posts have been censored by spoiler tags at the behest of admins.

My writing, like Aida's story, has to be seen as a whole. It's too complex to just cut out chunks and end up with something reasonable. Instead it becomes an ugly Frankenstein and won't hold up under any kind of reasonable scrutiny.

If someone doesn't want spoilers, they shouldn't read forums where they're discussed. It just isn't possible to have a detailed, deep or even reasonably analytic discussion of a complex story without laying it all out flat, at least for me.


Last edited by Isochroma on Sun 27 Dec 2009 - 19:30; edited 1 time in total

Isochroma

Male

Forum Posts : 24

Registration date : 2009-12-22

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 27 Dec 2009 - 19:29

[OT Spin]
OK, Isochroma, I found out that it is an anti spam bot protection that is preventing you from sending PMs though you can read them. According to it, you should have enough now to start replies.
[/OT Spin]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If Fernando had Super Powers, He would be God!
avatar
ElfenMagix

Male

Forum Posts : 5682

Location : NYC NY, USA

Fan of : Pia, Elsa, Cleas, Triela...

Original Characters : Fernando & Rachel, Felix & Francesca

Comments : He has super powers. He is God.

Registration date : 2007-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Totoum on Sun 27 Dec 2009 - 19:52

@Isochroma wrote:I I think Aida chose not to include Petra because her, Alessandro and their time in the story is far too complex to be distilled into one or even a dozen episodes of anime.

Or simply,the animes have followed the mangas in order:
-Season one adapted volumes 1 and 2 in 13 episodes (the only ones out at the time)
-Season two adapted volumes 3 to 5 in 15 episodes

I'm sure that if there's a third season,Petra would be introduced

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"The day the child realizes that all adults are imperfect he becomes an adolescent; the day he forgives them, he becomes an adult; the day he forgives himself, he becomes wise."Alden Nowlan
"Happy is the one who's able to laugh at himself:he's sure to be entertained for a long time"

avatar
Totoum

Male

Forum Posts : 480

Location : paris

Fan of : claes

Registration date : 2007-11-20

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 27 Dec 2009 - 20:43

Amine Season3: All Petra, All the Time! Its Gonna Suck!

Actually... In Il Teatrino (season 2) the Pre-Cyborg'd Petra, Elilzabetta, is in it. Corresponding with V5 Chapter 23, Evanescene; Season 2 Episode 5, Evanescene and Reminiscence, is where she is at when Elizabetta speaks with Condo and Patrica in the park balcony. She it not in the Manga, but the anime is simillar in construct situation to the manga when she meets Alessandro in V6 Ch30, Reincarnation.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If Fernando had Super Powers, He would be God!
avatar
ElfenMagix

Male

Forum Posts : 5682

Location : NYC NY, USA

Fan of : Pia, Elsa, Cleas, Triela...

Original Characters : Fernando & Rachel, Felix & Francesca

Comments : He has super powers. He is God.

Registration date : 2007-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Isochroma on Sun 27 Dec 2009 - 20:55

You're both right! I noticed Elizabetta on the deck (thought it was a rooftop), though for a moment I could hardly believe it was her. The unmistakable Russian face and light hair made me the believer I am today though!

I hope there's a third season, but that kind of thing is rare in anime. There's only a few three-season animes I can remember watching.

Ultimately, whether there's a third season or not, the entire format of the animes is not sufficient to cover the manga in detail. It's still great to watch for its own special attributes, and the music adds a strong sadness that isn't so present in the manga. I guess Aida needed it to make up for the anime's less-complex development and shortness.

Isochroma

Male

Forum Posts : 24

Registration date : 2009-12-22

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 27 Dec 2009 - 21:07

I only want a third season if they go back to the original studio with the original budget.

If it's more -IL TEATRINO- shit ó or worse ó then I won't bother watching.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What? I like donuts! - Betty Suarez
If I die before my time, go on Oprah and tell the world 'I liked kittens'. - Veronica Mars
Scissors of victory! - Yui Hirasawa
avatar
Kiskaloo
A Cat of Many Talents

Male

Forum Posts : 10901

Location : Seattle / Tokyo / Milan

Fan of : Angelica's Smile

Original Characters : Kara Michelle

Comments : The community's international man of mystery.

Registration date : 2008-09-11

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Isochroma on Sun 27 Dec 2009 - 21:11



Petra: Rebel with Claws
My second-favorite Petra scene. Slam those cute palms onto the table and give Sandro a chewing-out! That's the kind of spunk that makes a punk. I'm still waiting for the bellybutton-ring though. Alessandro really wants her to be the rebel he himself is - so doesn't get very upset at these displays. Instead he's somewhat amused, perhaps remembering a younger version of himself.

Besides the fun of this scene, there is something much deeper. She says in the third textbubble: "You may be grown up, Mr. Sandro, but one can keep feeling". Indeed, she demonstrates better ability to freely feel in her heart than Alessandro - even though she is subject to mental repressions and he is not.

That one line is so very crucial to the kind of person Petra is. She has kept on feeling, despite the conditioning. These feelings aren't due to conditioning but rather despite it, operating in opposition to it. That is why she's so concerned when an Agency associate beats two suspects she helped capture. She isn't supposed to feel for them, but she does. These feelings bring up moral questions in her thoughful head. These internal questions soon manifest themselves in both the continuing verbal questions she poses to Alessandro and outbursts like the one pictured above.

Those are things I would do to if I was able to feel and think in a way reminiscent of a free human being.

The essential difference between Alessandro and Petra's relationship and the other fratellos is that Alessandro and Petra are like a guy and his girlfriend, while the other fratellos are either brother/younger sister or maybe father/daughter. It's a very large difference and we'll see how it unfolds in coming chapters.

If I was him after she'd left the room I'd crack a smile.


Last edited by Isochroma on Sun 27 Dec 2009 - 21:36; edited 12 times in total

Isochroma

Male

Forum Posts : 24

Registration date : 2009-12-22

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 27 Dec 2009 - 21:12

*Hands a copy of Elfen Lied DVDs to Kiskaloo*
That should make up for a sucky GsG season 3.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If Fernando had Super Powers, He would be God!
avatar
ElfenMagix

Male

Forum Posts : 5682

Location : NYC NY, USA

Fan of : Pia, Elsa, Cleas, Triela...

Original Characters : Fernando & Rachel, Felix & Francesca

Comments : He has super powers. He is God.

Registration date : 2007-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 27 Dec 2009 - 21:15

@Isochroma wrote:If I was him after she'd left the room I'd crack a smile.
That would be a true 'Sandro-ism in the making there.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If Fernando had Super Powers, He would be God!
avatar
ElfenMagix

Male

Forum Posts : 5682

Location : NYC NY, USA

Fan of : Pia, Elsa, Cleas, Triela...

Original Characters : Fernando & Rachel, Felix & Francesca

Comments : He has super powers. He is God.

Registration date : 2007-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 27 Dec 2009 - 21:15

I have no desire to see or read Elfen Lied.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What? I like donuts! - Betty Suarez
If I die before my time, go on Oprah and tell the world 'I liked kittens'. - Veronica Mars
Scissors of victory! - Yui Hirasawa
avatar
Kiskaloo
A Cat of Many Talents

Male

Forum Posts : 10901

Location : Seattle / Tokyo / Milan

Fan of : Angelica's Smile

Original Characters : Kara Michelle

Comments : The community's international man of mystery.

Registration date : 2008-09-11

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 27 Dec 2009 - 21:17

@Isochroma wrote:The essential difference between Alessandro and Petra's relationship and the other fratellos is that Alessandro and Petra are like a guy and his girlfriend, while the other fratellos are either brother/younger sister or maybe father/daughter.

It's one of the reasons I like their fratello. It opens up more possibilities, which Yu has explored. It also gave me an excuse to create an OC fratello along similar lines, since I didn't want to fan-fic RPG a little girl.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What? I like donuts! - Betty Suarez
If I die before my time, go on Oprah and tell the world 'I liked kittens'. - Veronica Mars
Scissors of victory! - Yui Hirasawa
avatar
Kiskaloo
A Cat of Many Talents

Male

Forum Posts : 10901

Location : Seattle / Tokyo / Milan

Fan of : Angelica's Smile

Original Characters : Kara Michelle

Comments : The community's international man of mystery.

Registration date : 2008-09-11

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 28 Dec 2009 - 5:57

@Kiskaloo wrote:It's one of the reasons I like their fratello. It opens up more possibilities, which Yu has explored.
Exactly. I write fan fic smut all the time, but itís not what I want to see in canon. The reason I was drawn to GSG in the first place (and most everyone else) is that it was void of that kind of shit. Yu basically sold out his fan base when he introduced Sandro/Petra. In the anime/manga world, girl meets boy is a dime a dozen, GSG was defiantly something different. Or I guess I should say, it was something different.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


ďI donít hate him specifically, itís the rest of you selfish adults I hold a grudge against.Ē
avatar
Danjo3
The Voice of Reason

Male

Forum Posts : 2609

Fan of : Hillshire/Triela

Original Characters : Biff & Little Britney

Comments : OC hater par excellence.

Registration date : 2007-09-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Awinnell on Mon 28 Dec 2009 - 7:00

give it a rest, we all know you hate Petra !

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


We are living in the smelly cloud of gods fart,one day the universe will end in a great cloud of airfreshener
avatar
Awinnell
Stiff Upper Lip

Male

Forum Posts : 2131

Location : Hereford,England

Fan of : Triela,asuka

Original Characters : not yet

Comments : Loves to quote Wikipedia. Loves to use exclamation marks even more.

wish i knew who put that in there, it wasn't me !!!!!!!!!!!!


Registration date : 2008-05-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 28 Dec 2009 - 11:08

What do you say we try and keep it civil Awinnell.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


ďI donít hate him specifically, itís the rest of you selfish adults I hold a grudge against.Ē
avatar
Danjo3
The Voice of Reason

Male

Forum Posts : 2609

Fan of : Hillshire/Triela

Original Characters : Biff & Little Britney

Comments : OC hater par excellence.

Registration date : 2007-09-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Isochroma on Mon 28 Dec 2009 - 16:22

Rest assured, Aida has no intention of turning the story into smut.

Instead, he decided to open it up to a level of intensity that has been unattainable so far. If you read my previous posts you'll understand; I'll summarize why here.

First, the situation. Alessandro as Petra's handler faces the most difficult circumstances, even now. He's got a freethinking rebel on his hands. Enormously superior potential and greater liability. She could hate him for what he does and why - as she said so herself.

Alessandro is only just beginning to realize his own feelings. Petra knows her own by heart, but doesn't understand just how precarious her emplyment within the Agency is. If Petra becomes a problem she will simply be disposed of by memory erasure, death or otherwise as the Agency sees fit.

A massive conflict between the interests of the Agency, Alessandro, and Petra's own will is inevitable - unless other major changes in the story avert it. Aida isn't going to turn his attention from this situation, though. He created it, after all - and for the exact intent to open the story to new heights and new depths.

Considering the circumstances - even without further fulfillment of their relationship - Alessandro and Petra are not going to have it easy. If they succeed to follow their hearts it will be a very tough and potentially tragic path they will walk.

What the hell would I do as Alessandro when I start feeling for the cyborg who is supposed to be a disposable tool under my command? Not the kind of feeling that characterizes the other handlers' for their girls, but the kind that binds a man and woman heart-to-heart for a lifetime? How would I deal with the situation of sending that most precious of beings to die for the Agency? Alessandro is about to enter a world of very tough choices, and many of them will lead to pain.

As Petra, how could I reconcile my own judgements and morals with the Agency, and the person I truly love - Alessandro? She is already in an impossibly difficult situation. Right now she can still work with him and enjoy the fruits of intimacy without commitment. But the undercurrents of both her heart and the Agency's requirements are in deep conflict with elements of her psyche that cannot be denied.

Even without Petra's internal conflicts - already being externalized in her dialogues with Guellfi and her tantrums with Alessandro - the entire situation for both of them is insoluble at present. The relentless push of time and the never-ending missions - each with the potential to turn a slowly-evolving trainwreck into an instant disaster - take their toll.

Aida created this situation to allow the exploration of a deeper tragedy and a higher accomplishment. Rather than compromise the intent of the story as it exists, the fratello of Petra and Alessandro hyperpotentiates and brings to a new level of amplification the underlying conflicts that characterize the other fratello relationships. It brings these inherent joys, contradictions and problems to a higher level of expression, moving them from the embryonic state as embodied in the other fratellos to a season of birth and flowering - thus allowing the story to reach a new pinnacle of love, fear, passion, tragedy, intrigue and personal development for both Alessandro and Petra.

As mentioned in previous posts, such a level couldn't be reached with the other fratellos, for the reasons I explained in those posts. Petra is not just a second-generation cyborg: she is Aida's second-generation tool to move the story to a new level. And he will use her as such: a tool full of the failings, passions, bitterness and joy that characterize a normal human being - despite the heavy pressure of her situation and its accompanying conditioning. The only question now is how the situation as it exists will evolve - and evolve it will.

And as mentioned in other posts, the genesis of the future is the past and present. To understand the potentials and enormous liabilities of this new turn, we must look to how things have been and are in the present. The personalities and drives of Alessandro and Petra - both inside the maelstrom of the Agency's plans and missions provide both the guessable and the unknowable that will make Gunslinger Girl a story to remember.

Isochroma

Male

Forum Posts : 24

Registration date : 2009-12-22

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Totoum on Mon 28 Dec 2009 - 17:26

@Isochroma wrote:
Instead, he decided to open it up to a level of intensity

I think danjo has understood this and already shared his view on it:

I write fan fic smut all the time, but itís not what I want to see in canon


Not the kind of feeling that characterizes the other handlers' for their girls, but the kind that binds a man and woman heart-to-heart for a lifetime?

This is a personal view but I think that a father/daughter brother/sister bond is just as big as a lover's bond.

Isochroma,you seem quite sure of yourself,you make a lot of affirmations and use the future tense.Do you have some insider info that we don't have?
I say this because (someone correcty me if I'm wrong) there's absolutely no petra in the chapters since chapter 64.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"The day the child realizes that all adults are imperfect he becomes an adolescent; the day he forgives them, he becomes an adult; the day he forgives himself, he becomes wise."Alden Nowlan
"Happy is the one who's able to laugh at himself:he's sure to be entertained for a long time"

avatar
Totoum

Male

Forum Posts : 480

Location : paris

Fan of : claes

Registration date : 2007-11-20

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Isochroma on Mon 28 Dec 2009 - 17:37

There are no chapters beyond 64: it is the last one which has been scanlated as of today. More will be coming.

What you think of the bond is not the issue: Aida has carefully shown us the qualitative and quantitative differences between Alessandro and Petra's relation and the other fratellos' by many carefully-orchestrated examples. You can find a selection of them in my previous posts. He did this so there would be no mistake in the reader's mind that his intention is not to duplicate what has come before but to introduce both a new configuration and an entirely new level to the story.

My writing intends to divine the intent behind these differences, based on both what exists now - the past and present up to chapter 64 - and what I think the likely results will be based on both intellectual and emotional logic. Trying to put myself in both Alessandro and Petra's shoes, while also trying to stay consistent with both the overt actions and deeper intent that Aida has demonstrated in the story thus far.

It's a difficult job, but I need to understand more about the two - in fact I want to become closer to their own selves and feelings. It is harsh because I can see the ugly potential for what may come, based on what has passed already. The closer I get the more I feel the tears waiting to flow, because - and this is a judgement based on the nature of the Agency, Alessandro and Petra and the totality of their circumstances together - tragedy is slightly outweighing a happy ending in terms of the story's probable outcome.

As for my seeming assuredness, part of it comes from reading the story with a careful eye. Aida isn't trying to obfuscate or hide his intention; in fact he is revealing it carefully in ways both direct and indirect. It's my job to try to understand what he's saying, without taking off into a total fantasy.

That is made hard for anyone with his own hopes, dreams and fears because they interfere with understanding how things actually are. Yet from the same heart that brings me those distractions comes the reliable interpreter of Aida's own heart. By connecting that terribly unreliable part of myself to the story, it becomes possible to both misunderstand and truly perceive its core.

Such is the essence of any reader with passion, and I've got faith that guided by a modicum of logic, consistent examples from the story as it has been so far, and a willingness to see with eyes unshrouded the worst and best potentials for its future - the story can make sense as it exists now and be extrapolated into the future.

The truth of predictions can only be found in our own future, where the as yet unpublished chapters are still to come. It is there that the known meets the unknown, with suprises aplenty.


Last edited by Isochroma on Mon 28 Dec 2009 - 20:45; edited 3 times in total

Isochroma

Male

Forum Posts : 24

Registration date : 2009-12-22

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 28 Dec 2009 - 17:54

@Totoum wrote:Isochroma,you seem quite sure of yourself,you make a lot of affirmations and use the future tense.Do you have some insider info that we don't have?

I say this because (someone correcty me if I'm wrong) there's absolutely no petra in the chapters since chapter 64.

Chapters 65-70 have all been flashbacks prior to Jose and Jean joining the SWA, so at that time Petrushka is still Elizabeta Baranovskaya and is living in Russia.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What? I like donuts! - Betty Suarez
If I die before my time, go on Oprah and tell the world 'I liked kittens'. - Veronica Mars
Scissors of victory! - Yui Hirasawa
avatar
Kiskaloo
A Cat of Many Talents

Male

Forum Posts : 10901

Location : Seattle / Tokyo / Milan

Fan of : Angelica's Smile

Original Characters : Kara Michelle

Comments : The community's international man of mystery.

Registration date : 2008-09-11

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Totoum on Mon 28 Dec 2009 - 18:01

@Isochroma wrote:There are no chapters beyond 64: it is the last one which has been scanlated. More will be coming.

But the RAWs are out Wink

you can check them out in the "archives" section of this forum.

And I know they're flashback sweat

My point was just that it seems Aida has shifted the focus of his story on other characters,not saying we won't see anymore Petra,but I'm not sure that the Sandro/Petra frattello is as important as Isochroma is making it to be.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"The day the child realizes that all adults are imperfect he becomes an adolescent; the day he forgives them, he becomes an adult; the day he forgives himself, he becomes wise."Alden Nowlan
"Happy is the one who's able to laugh at himself:he's sure to be entertained for a long time"

avatar
Totoum

Male

Forum Posts : 480

Location : paris

Fan of : claes

Registration date : 2007-11-20

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Isochroma on Mon 28 Dec 2009 - 18:06

I can't read Japanese and want to have the full translation available so that I can understand the story.

Aida's purpose in moving the focus away from Alessandro and Petra is not to end their development, but to keep painting the entire picture. As a gardener Aida must water and trim all his flowers. He has a larger picture in mind, and will not become obsessive over only a small part of it - no matter how new, different or even revolutionary that detail is.

Now that he's taken time to develop Alessandro and Petra he must grow the rest of the context so that it is ready for their next steps. All in proportion so that the totality can move forward without becoming distorted from his intent - and ultimately from the many lives of the story itself. That world is a diverse ecosystem and even the smallest details and furthest reaches cannot be neglected: all are a living, growing foundation upon which the greatest triumphs and horrors will find their homes.

These are the skills of a masterful storyteller: to create complexity, to craft depth, and to do these things amidst the most difficult circumstances, while allowing the heart and will of the story to shine through without distortion. The wholism of his art and within Aida's own context inside Japanese culture provides both a basis and a mandate for it. And by his own example, Aida intends to live his life and write his story with those understandings in his heart and mind: pouring like a river of life into the world he creates.

Isochroma

Male

Forum Posts : 24

Registration date : 2009-12-22

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Professor Voodoo on Mon 28 Dec 2009 - 18:28

Isochroma, you have a complex and enjoyable writing style, I'm eager to see you try your hand at some fiction.
avatar
Professor Voodoo

Male

Forum Posts : 3422

Location : Hudson Valley, New York

Fan of : That one guy who was only in one episode & didn't have any lines.

Original Characters : Marisa/ Elio Alboreto

Comments :

Registration date : 2009-11-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Isochroma on Mon 28 Dec 2009 - 18:37

Thanks! Maybe if I live long enough it might be something to do.

Last night I thought of what it would be like to make a creation like Aida's. For a moment in the darkness my heart leapt, and I felt something I haven't in so many years. The ability to create the most amazing situations, the toughest choices, the most heartrending realities. It was just too much for a moment because I don't really know how to go about it.

I'm just so amazed that a single person like Aida could both have the graphic art skill to draw the imagery, and yet also hold within that limited mind of his such vast worlds of plot, character, meaning, and ultimately intent. How? And to put them all together so some fool like me can write about it like a sports commentator. That's the difference in levels. I just couldn't measure up to that kind of skill. It's just scary to contemplate the difference.

I can understand his story at many levels, but when I pull my head up and try to 'look' at the man himself and the accomplishment in its larger context, I get the feeling that what I'm seeing is something transhuman. Like some strange peacock, here comes the Aida creature with an amazing display. What could I say about that?

All I can do is play sorcerer with a crystal ball, sports commentator, and ultimately receiver of his art as reader: a punch to the chest and a tweak in my heart, and lots of details to dazzle my mind. That's his intent and I'm happy to receive it as the gift that it is.

Isochroma

Male

Forum Posts : 24

Registration date : 2009-12-22

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Isochroma on Tue 29 Dec 2009 - 0:32

Was rereading and came across volume 6 page 118:


Aida's care and attention to detail, including background research is really fine Smile

From: How Is Bone Cancer Diagnosed?

"MRI scans are often the best test for outlining a bone tumor. They are also particularly helpful for looking at the brain and spinal cord. MRI scans are a little more uncomfortable than CT scans. First, they take longer -- often up to an hour. Also, you have to be placed inside a tube, which is confining and can upset people with claustrophobia (fear of enclosed spaces)"

Not only is this detail highly accurate and relevant, but items such as Elizabeta's highly detailed Russian passport and the fact that being born and raised in Belarus was the ultimate cause of her bone cancer. Indeed, since Chernobyl that state has weathered the brunt of long-term radiation casualties - and is especially known for its high rate of bone cancer.

Belarus received over 70% of Chernobyl's radiation - "and as a result, thousands are born every year or go on to develop thyroid cancer, bone cancer and leukaemia." That place is an ongoing human health disaster - a hidden nightmare that won't end anytime soon. And the disaster is ours - girls from Belarus like Elizabetta but without an Agency to help them are dying today from these cancers. The horror in Belarus even today eclipses the world's historical trove of industrial and nuclear accidents:

"What did those May rains and south-east winds bring to Belarus? The total release of the radioactive substances was estimated at 18,500 million million becquerel, or 50 million curies. This is 2,500 times that of the the Windscale nuclear plant accident in England in 1957, and 16 million times that of the Three Mile Island incident in Pennsylvania in 1978."

Sixteen million times more radiation deposited in Belarus than the total release at Three Mile Island. That is sickeningly scary.

She might have survived but would never dance again - she wouldn't even be walking again without a prosthesis, as folks in the story pointed out. Even surviving the acute phase, long-term chances weren't good - many who start with bone cancer end up developing leukemia, since if the radiation dose was colocated it has likely affected nearby tissues.

Leukemia is a cancer not of bone cells but of marrow cells - which generate new blood cells and are crucially important for immunity. The penetrating gamma radiation (high energy photons that literally shine right through tissues and even bones) released by daughter nuclides from the original accident is easily energetic enough to not only cause cancer in the bone-cell surround, but in the central marrow too. Unlike bone cells that cement themselves in place and replicate slowly, marrow cells are constantly dividing and move around - they're highly motile.

A diagnosis of leukemia is a death sentence without advanced care because cancerous marrow cells rapidly diffuse into the bloodstream and are distributed to every location in the body, making eradication nearly impossible.

Aida is a damn smart artist - as knowledgeable as some physicians - and Petra is a damn lucky girl to have received the most advanced treatment of them all: a full-body prosthetic.


Last edited by Isochroma on Tue 29 Dec 2009 - 4:17; edited 1 time in total

Isochroma

Male

Forum Posts : 24

Registration date : 2009-12-22

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Isochroma on Tue 29 Dec 2009 - 4:06

After some more thought, I thought of two reasons Aida might have given Petra her Elizabettan history. The first is he decided such a set would be convenient for his designs. The sum of this first possibility is that her history was of only utilitarian value to the story itself.

Such being the likely case, I then thought that since that case is so boring, why not look at another possibility instead? On paths less taken abound plenty a mound of treasures.

So then I thought, why would he make a history like that, if it wasn't (exclusively, at least) for pragmatic reasons as applicable to his work?

Then another fact seems to have jumped in. Perhaps he has caught up in his own personal life to that level, or is making it seem so in the story. A new element of intelligent morality has appeared: Petra, formerly Elizabetta.

Her history is tragic as are the other girls'. I haven't studied the other girls' histories enough to say whether moral thematics exist in their adoptive initiations.

Whether or not there is a moral or other agenda in Petra's former self as penned by Aida, it certainly exists in her case and can be examined.

The idea is that what happened to her, and has and is happening to thousands of girls and other people in Belarus, never had to happen.

Some deficient folks at the Chernobyl reactor on April 25, 1986 decided on a whim to test the safety core cooling shutdown system. Due to administrative screwups and an inherently unsafe RBMK reactor design, a disaster of enormous magnitude occurred.

So at 1:23:04am, these null-brains start their play experiment. You see, they get up early for these fun, enjoyable and festive experiments.

They cut the steam to simulate a power loss to test the backup and safety systems. Ones that had in the past repeatedly failed due to inherently faulty design, this time yet again with only minor changes. After more unroutine events and due to loss of water which caused empty areas filled with steam to form in the reactor.

So because steam or empty space makes the reactor run faster (inherently unsafe), and loss of water pumping makes it impossible to keep the reactor vessel filled with liquid water, the entire design is inherently dangerous.

Skipping by the gritty details, the core blew - spewing massive amounts of radiation into the air, onto the ground and into the water.

The air brought that radiation to Belarus, and ended up bringing Elizabetta to the Agency.

Many in the West and indeed throughout the world aren't aware of this situation. Both Soviet and American media have systematically ignored or minimized the true casualty count of this totally preventable disaster. One which is ongoing to this day.

So I thought, "wouldn't it be nice if Aida wasn't just a pragmatist? Then: maybe he isn't just a pragmatist but wanted to expose in what little way he could - and in congruency with Petra's own sense - some injustice that exists not only in his art, but in the world today.

So is Aida a conscious connections man, or just an unconscious connective man? Who knows, but the joy is in the journey - and travelling through his connections and their relations to the story and its themes is really fun but often saddening. The entire story has a deeply questioning theme - some weight on its shoulders that shows between the happy times.

Becoming aware of the situation that's existed since 1986 in Belarus, I was shocked at the fact that I didn't have a clue before. And even more shocked to find that it was a manga by an author half a world away in Japan that alerted me to this ugly reality.

It happens that the Japanese have a very strong - and recently acquired - anti-nuclear movement. It's a common undercurrent even in those that don't participate directly.

Today, at least twelve RBMK reactors are still in operation.

Isochroma

Male

Forum Posts : 24

Registration date : 2009-12-22

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Five_X on Tue 29 Dec 2009 - 4:27

I highly, highly doubt that Yu Aida was making an anti-nuclear statement when he wrote up Petra's backstory. You're being incredibly overanalytical.

I know, as I'm the same way sometimes. Razz

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



"The scoreboard looks like baseball, the start looks like bowling, and the rest looks like cleaning the kitchen floors." - rustyspring on curling

"The world will listen to me!" - Makoto Itou, butchered translation of School Days

"Bullshit! I want healthy Arf back!" - Piero, on Nanoha season three
avatar
Five_X

Male

Forum Posts : 695

Location : Canada

Fan of : Rico!

Original Characters : Jessi, Ed, Ralph and Mal

Comments : President of the Ilya Fanclub.

Registration date : 2009-09-30

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Isochroma on Tue 29 Dec 2009 - 4:40

The likelyhood - as explained in the post - is small.

That's why I wanted to explore it - and also because I was so shocked to find out the ugly reality behind the backstory. Everywhere in the story - and now even outside it through a real-world conection in Petra's history - is a certain and pervasive sense of loss. It seems that through the birth canal of pain and suffering come forth Aida's characters. Most of their pre-Agency trauma has been personal, but in Petra's case it happens to be impersonal and also indirect.

Next I might write about something closer to the story proper: the politics of their time and place - the rightists vs. a rather slimy government. But that commentary will have to go in another thread.

Isochroma

Male

Forum Posts : 24

Registration date : 2009-12-22

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by MikhailN on Tue 29 Dec 2009 - 5:18

@Five_X wrote:I highly, highly doubt that Yu Aida was making an anti-nuclear statement when he wrote up Petra's backstory. You're being incredibly overanalytical.

I know, as I'm the same way sometimes. Razz

It depends on how much you want to read into the story. For all you know Yu may have just put that in because it was the first thing that came to mind.

However, I would like to take a slightly different approach to this. GSG's depiction of nuclear power is actually quite in line with that of most post-WWII Japanese anime and manga. Most of the time you see a subliminal message embedded within manga and anime to embrace the technologies of the West and use it as a stepping stone to advance. One shining example is Doraemon, who is a robot cat from the future. In that manga the future Japan is described as being filled with technological marvels, implying that Japan's bright future lies in developing technology.

However, owing to Fat Man and Little Boy, Japanese anime and manga have taken a very dim view of nuclear technology. In Gundam SEED and Gundam SEED Destiny, you have a nuclear arms race. Nuclear weapons are used to blow up a space colony, resulting in the deployment of Neutron Jammers (anti-nuclear weapon devices) and subsequently Neutron Jammer Cancellers (anti-anti-nuclear weapon devices). Similarly, in Highschool of the Dead, a destructive exchange of nuclear weapons is featured. From this we see that nuclear power has been depicted in anime and manga as being highly destructive and something to be avoided.

When this influence of Hiroshima and Nagasaki on anime and manga is taken into consideration, it is hardly surprising that Gunslinger Girl will carry an anti-nuclear message.

@Isochroma wrote:Next I might write about something closer to the story proper: the politics of their time and place - the rightists vs. a rather slimy government. But that commentary will have to go in another thread.

I would like to quickly point out that left-right politics vary from country to country. In some places it's conservatives v liberals while in others it's nationalists v communists. Take a look http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left%E2%80%93right_politics

Naturally I'm not discouraging you, just pointing out a huge difficulty that you have to address. While I'm at it, I want to suggest that you take a look at gender dynamics and Gunslinger Girl. This is a particularly common theme found in manga. Questions to ponder:

1. In a fratello, who is more powerful? Who wields power?
2. How are female members of SWA different from male SWA members?
3. How do males and females interact with each other? (note: you can include non-SWA members)

Thinking about this, the answer becomes clear. Naturally there are exceptions, but these can be easily explained away

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


avatar
MikhailN

Male

Forum Posts : 583

Location : SWA, teaching the little girls to kick rear

Fan of : Triela

Registration date : 2009-06-06

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by emperor on Tue 29 Dec 2009 - 7:28

@Isochroma wrote:The likelyhood - as explained in the post - is small.

That's why I wanted to explore it - and also because I was so shocked to find out the ugly reality behind the backstory. Everywhere in the story - and now even outside it through a real-world conection in Petra's history - is a certain and pervasive sense of loss. It seems that through the birth canal of pain and suffering come forth Aida's characters. Most of their pre-Agency trauma has been personal, but in Petra's case it happens to be impersonal and also indirect.

Next I might write about something closer to the story proper: the politics of their time and place - the rightists vs. a rather slimy government. But that commentary will have to go in another thread.

Isochroma,you can be sure I'm the one who waiting for your topic as you state to write about!

That will be a good analysis essay from GSG fam!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://on.fb.me/9tuZOK Facebook Page for Cyborg Central : Gunslinger Girl Forum cheers
avatar
emperor

Male

Forum Posts : 1637

Location : Bangkok,Thailand

Fan of : Henrietta,Black Lagoon,Jormungund

Original Characters : Rosetta,Devil baby

Comments : Be creative,baby!!

Registration date : 2007-09-09
Your character
OC genger:

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 29 Dec 2009 - 12:49

I also do not believe Yu created Elizabetta's back story as an anti-nuclear message. He needed a reason for Elizabetta to come to the SWA and giving her cancer worked to advance that end. Elizabetta has the most developed back-story of any of the girls. Many do not consider her decision to attempt to take her own life as tragic, but the events that drove her to that point (cancer) are, IMO.

Yu seldom spent more than a page (and sometimes only one or two panels on a page) on the background for any of the other girls ó and in the case of Claes, Beatrice, Elsa Silvia and Chiara did not bother to spend any space at all. So that he now devotes much of one volume to that, while it pisses off many, must have been done for a reason, and to make a lame anti-nuclear message it wasn't. NO

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What? I like donuts! - Betty Suarez
If I die before my time, go on Oprah and tell the world 'I liked kittens'. - Veronica Mars
Scissors of victory! - Yui Hirasawa
avatar
Kiskaloo
A Cat of Many Talents

Male

Forum Posts : 10901

Location : Seattle / Tokyo / Milan

Fan of : Angelica's Smile

Original Characters : Kara Michelle

Comments : The community's international man of mystery.

Registration date : 2008-09-11

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 29 Dec 2009 - 13:40

Lets do some quick math on the subject...

According to the V6, ch30; (no page # give for its not printed), when Duvalier was talking to his 'assistants', the second panel going down on the right side of the page that has Elizabetta's picture states "her parents were forced to return to their home town following the Chernobyl disaster of 1986."

Elizabetta has been stated that she is 16 at the time of her conversion into a cyborg. During the next 5 years, as far as Soviet News reports let out, the area around Chernobyl would be cleared out and residents placed elsewhere. If Elizabetta was a baby when Chernobyl happened, Petra became a cyborg in 2002. If Elizabetta was a baby anytime during this evacuation process, it could be anywhere from 2002 - 2007.

Considering that those who were there during the early years suffered horrific cancers and birth defects, we could place Elizabetta in the later years. So she would have became a cyborg at around the 2005 - 2007 time span. This makes any sense to you?

Making a statement this late after the Chernobyl Disaster makes little sense. It does make for an interesting Genesis Definition for Petra's story. Thats MHO.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If Fernando had Super Powers, He would be God!
avatar
ElfenMagix

Male

Forum Posts : 5682

Location : NYC NY, USA

Fan of : Pia, Elsa, Cleas, Triela...

Original Characters : Fernando & Rachel, Felix & Francesca

Comments : He has super powers. He is God.

Registration date : 2007-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Kiskaloo on Tue 29 Dec 2009 - 13:58

@ElfenMagix wrote:So she would have became a cyborg at around the 2005 - 2007 time span. This makes any sense to you?

Yes.

I am ignoring Yu putting Jose on a C-27J Spartan in Chapter 70. It was really an Aeritalia G.222 (C-27A Spartan). Smile

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What? I like donuts! - Betty Suarez
If I die before my time, go on Oprah and tell the world 'I liked kittens'. - Veronica Mars
Scissors of victory! - Yui Hirasawa
avatar
Kiskaloo
A Cat of Many Talents

Male

Forum Posts : 10901

Location : Seattle / Tokyo / Milan

Fan of : Angelica's Smile

Original Characters : Kara Michelle

Comments : The community's international man of mystery.

Registration date : 2008-09-11

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 29 Dec 2009 - 23:56

If anything, GSG's more an anti-human-experimentation tale than an anti-nuclear one.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------





There may be no peace for the wicked, but the righteous can damn well get a piece whenever they feel like it.
avatar
Nachtsider
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD

Male

Forum Posts : 5718

Location : Inside your closet. In your head.

Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated

Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus

Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.

Registration date : 2007-09-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Isochroma on Wed 30 Dec 2009 - 1:04

Tonight I read the interview with Aida on this board.

What he had to say was very revealing. The most revealing - but something I'd already guessed from the feeling of the plot's timing and development - was that the manga would end at ten or twelve volumes. It looks like twelve or maybe thirteen will be the finish for this one.

In this context, I now understand why Petra and Alessandro were introduced. They are the crown, the capstone for the entire manga. Aida will give his readers the penultimate through this fratello's achievements. Like a final breath of fresh air, Petra and Alessandro will go all the way - in several ways - and by doing so rupture the story's previous boundaries while forming a natural ending.

The ending will be either redemption or tragedy. I've got a feeling that if the Agency dies - as it must since its funding is running out - it will go with a whimper or bang: the second more likely than the first.

If anyone gets out alive and continues a life beyond the Agency's bounds, it will be Alessandro and Petra. Not only is this fratello the only one with true love between its partners, but both are capable enough beings to look after each other - together or alone. Being the final fruit of the gen2 process, Petra is going to be the survivor or die in a feat of accomplishment that will eclipse all of her fellow cyborgs.

It's going to be a Blade Runner ending for Petra and Alessandro. It's quite interesting to compare Petra as a gen2 unit to Rachel, so human that it took Deckard more than a hundred questions to tell she wasn't flesh and blood.

Although nine more gen2 units are scheduled to be made I don't think they will ever appear - there simply isn't enough time left. Rather, Petra will be the only gen2 and Alessandro the one handler privileged and fated to have this kind of partner.

Alessandro has the independence and skill to get out of the Agency as it folds, and he will bring Petra with him if he can. Remember how he's training Petra in acting and being other people? How he's got her taking close care of her fashion, posture, and social skills? That's dual-use technology. It's the social, humane techniques and skills that will allow her to survive outside the Agency with Alessandro. I can smell this intent from Aida. He's set this fratello up from the beginning to ready them for an emergency ejection from the Agency mothership.

Petra's got the brains and is already moving into opposition to the Agency. She is already willing and will soon be able to fight the SWA and even abandon it to live with Alessandro.

The tragic ending beckons as well. Just as likely as an escape, one or both will die along with the Agency itself. The other fratellos will have their roles to play, but they are fundamentally unable to transcend the Agency itself in many important ways. If Aida is nice one or more of them will survive, but I think the likelyhood is low. Only Petra and Alessandro have the qualities needed to transcend the Agency, and it is no coincidence that they are being introduced and very rapidly developed at the last moment, right before utter chaos and the Agency's demise.

Essentially, Petra's rapid development is to get her ready to escape the Agency with Alessandro - or make a damn fine spectacle at the end as she bests the other girls' achievements and dies at the pinnacle.

However, regardless of which ending Aida chooses he will allow Petra and Alessandro to reach the height he intends for them. Their fratello is the last, and it is not intended as mere window dressing nor frilly topping on the story's layer cake; it is intended for them to burn bright like that tyger in the night. There will be no mediocrity for that pair.


Last edited by Isochroma on Wed 30 Dec 2009 - 1:47; edited 4 times in total

Isochroma

Male

Forum Posts : 24

Registration date : 2009-12-22

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Five_X on Wed 30 Dec 2009 - 1:36

Meh. Needs more Rico.

But honestly, I'd laugh (evilly) if Petra and Sandro turned out to be relatively unimportant drones. Or die. Or something... more torturous, something that I would think up...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



"The scoreboard looks like baseball, the start looks like bowling, and the rest looks like cleaning the kitchen floors." - rustyspring on curling

"The world will listen to me!" - Makoto Itou, butchered translation of School Days

"Bullshit! I want healthy Arf back!" - Piero, on Nanoha season three
avatar
Five_X

Male

Forum Posts : 695

Location : Canada

Fan of : Rico!

Original Characters : Jessi, Ed, Ralph and Mal

Comments : President of the Ilya Fanclub.

Registration date : 2009-09-30

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Isochroma on Wed 30 Dec 2009 - 2:15

Since we're close to the end, maybe it's time to get real...

$50 USD says Petra and Alessandro at least try to do 'that' with each other. 'That' means going all the way, with a failure due to the mechanical limitations of Petra's body still qualifying as winning the wager.

$50 USD says Petra will survive the Agency's downfall, with or without Alessandro.

Money's in my PayPal, an admin can hold wagers in their PayPal or other account until the manga finishes - eta. 6mo. to 2yr. No interest. Other scenario proposals and wagers invited! Let's set up a pool.

I've got confidence to bet these amounts because of faith in the analytical processes that brought the conclusions. Though nothing is certain, it might spruce up the thought-level if cold hard cash entered the picture Smile

Isochroma

Male

Forum Posts : 24

Registration date : 2009-12-22

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 30 Dec 2009 - 2:31

@Isochroma wrote:$50 USD says Petra and Alessandro at least try to do 'that' with each other. 'That' means going all the way, with a failure due to the mechanical limitations of Petra's body still qualifying as winning the wager.
What about if Sandro's the one who can't perform?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------





There may be no peace for the wicked, but the righteous can damn well get a piece whenever they feel like it.
avatar
Nachtsider
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD

Male

Forum Posts : 5718

Location : Inside your closet. In your head.

Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated

Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus

Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.

Registration date : 2007-09-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by boomer_gonz on Wed 30 Dec 2009 - 2:42

@Nachtsider wrote:
@Isochroma wrote:$50 USD says Petra and Alessandro at least try to do 'that' with each other. 'That' means going all the way, with a failure due to the mechanical limitations of Petra's body still qualifying as winning the wager.
What about if Sandro's the one who can't perform?

He could go for alternative stimulation. Evil

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Power of Claes Compels You!!!
avatar
boomer_gonz

Male

Forum Posts : 2561

Location : California Republic

Fan of : Crystal Palace!!!

Original Characters : Alpha/Omega Fratello & Dr. Giacomo Gianncomo

Registration date : 2007-09-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Isochroma on Wed 30 Dec 2009 - 2:44

Geez, didn't think of that rather unlikely possibility.

Tomorrow I'll make a new version of the wager idea, likely adding a minimum wager, ABCD type scenario tagging, timeframe (maybe from now over the next two to three months, then the pool closes), etc.

There's lots of possibilities and some that will invalidate one or more bets, meaning the funds get returned - like if the Agency continues and Petra doesn't need to escape, etc.

Isochroma

Male

Forum Posts : 24

Registration date : 2009-12-22

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 30 Dec 2009 - 11:09

@Isochroma wrote:In this context, I now understand why Petra and Alessandro were introduced. They are the crown, the capstone for the entire manga. Aida will give his readers the penultimate through this fratello's achievements. Like a final breath of fresh air, Petra and Alessandro will go all the way - in several ways - and by doing so rupture the story's previous boundaries while forming a natural ending.

I sense a great disturbance in The Force... As if millions of American Gunslinger Girls fans cried out in anguish...




@Isochroma wrote:It's going to be a Blade Runner ending for Petra and Alessandro. It's quite interesting to compare Petra as a gen2 unit to Rachel, so human that it took Deckard more than a hundred questions to tell she wasn't flesh and blood.

Heh. When Michele sees Kara blush for the first time in Pactio, he is reminded of Tyrell Corporation's "More real than real" line.

@Isochroma wrote:Although nine more gen2 units are scheduled to be made I don't think they will ever appear - there simply isn't enough time left. Rather, Petra will be the only gen2 and Alessandro the one handler privileged and fated to have this kind of partner.

It's a given the other three girls with Petra at the end of Volume 9 are Second Generation girls.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What? I like donuts! - Betty Suarez
If I die before my time, go on Oprah and tell the world 'I liked kittens'. - Veronica Mars
Scissors of victory! - Yui Hirasawa
avatar
Kiskaloo
A Cat of Many Talents

Male

Forum Posts : 10901

Location : Seattle / Tokyo / Milan

Fan of : Angelica's Smile

Original Characters : Kara Michelle

Comments : The community's international man of mystery.

Registration date : 2008-09-11

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Totoum on Wed 30 Dec 2009 - 11:39

@Kiskaloo wrote:I sense a great disturbance in The Force... As if millions of American Gunslinger Girls fans cried out in anguish...

You're just warming up,the final blow would be this:

And then season 3 of the anime is announced with the original crew back:having been inspired after seeing how the manga was pushing new bounderies with the Petra/Sendro they decided to get back together and do 26 beautiful episodes of Petra/Sandro (13 just won't be enough)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"The day the child realizes that all adults are imperfect he becomes an adolescent; the day he forgives them, he becomes an adult; the day he forgives himself, he becomes wise."Alden Nowlan
"Happy is the one who's able to laugh at himself:he's sure to be entertained for a long time"

avatar
Totoum

Male

Forum Posts : 480

Location : paris

Fan of : claes

Registration date : 2007-11-20

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 30 Dec 2009 - 12:03

NOOOOOOOooooooo!!!!!!!!!!11!!!!!!!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If Fernando had Super Powers, He would be God!
avatar
ElfenMagix

Male

Forum Posts : 5682

Location : NYC NY, USA

Fan of : Pia, Elsa, Cleas, Triela...

Original Characters : Fernando & Rachel, Felix & Francesca

Comments : He has super powers. He is God.

Registration date : 2007-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 30 Dec 2009 - 12:13

@Totoum wrote:
@Kiskaloo wrote:I sense a great disturbance in The Force... As if millions of American Gunslinger Girls fans cried out in anguish...

You're just warming up,the final blow would be this:

And then season 3 of the anime is announced with the original crew back:having been inspired after seeing how the manga was pushing new bounderies with the Petra/Sendro they decided to get back together and do 26 beautiful episodes of Petra/Sandro (13 just won't be enough)

If it had the first series anime team, I'd watch 26 episodes of Beatrice sitting at an empty table with her stomach grumbling. Yes Indeed

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What? I like donuts! - Betty Suarez
If I die before my time, go on Oprah and tell the world 'I liked kittens'. - Veronica Mars
Scissors of victory! - Yui Hirasawa
avatar
Kiskaloo
A Cat of Many Talents

Male

Forum Posts : 10901

Location : Seattle / Tokyo / Milan

Fan of : Angelica's Smile

Original Characters : Kara Michelle

Comments : The community's international man of mystery.

Registration date : 2008-09-11

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Totoum on Sun 17 Jan 2010 - 20:26

Ok I'm going to revive a topic that seems like it's been discussed to death,so here it goes.

There's been this debate over wether petra's love for sandro is any different from the one the other girls feel,some say she's different some say it's just the drugs

Well,you know the character intros at the start of every volume? ( http://mangahelpers.com/downloads/read-online/65146/11?t=1263773789 ) Does Yu write those?Or aprove them before they're published?Or is it just the publishers making these up?

Because in the version I have it says "Petra's love for Sandro goes beyond the one imposed by the reconditioning",that pretty much leaves no room for debate IF it's Yu Aida saying it.

Sorry if that intro has already been brought up.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"The day the child realizes that all adults are imperfect he becomes an adolescent; the day he forgives them, he becomes an adult; the day he forgives himself, he becomes wise."Alden Nowlan
"Happy is the one who's able to laugh at himself:he's sure to be entertained for a long time"

avatar
Totoum

Male

Forum Posts : 480

Location : paris

Fan of : claes

Registration date : 2007-11-20

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 17 Jan 2010 - 20:34

I would expect Yu Aida writes them.

Honestly, the scanlations make it directly and unequivocally clear that Petrushka was not compelled to love Alessandro by the medical staff and did so of her own volition. So unless the scanlators just made it up, I don't quite understand the continuing debate over the subject.

Yes, there are statements earlier in the manga where the medical staff said the Second Generation cyborgs get the same conditioning as the First Generation (whose love is imposed upon them), but either the love imposition is separate from the conditioning or Yu changed his mind when he later wrote that Petrushka was not compelled to love her handler.

So in terms of "current canon", we have to go with Yu's last statement on the issue, and that statement is Petrushka was not compelled to love Alessandro by the medical staff.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What? I like donuts! - Betty Suarez
If I die before my time, go on Oprah and tell the world 'I liked kittens'. - Veronica Mars
Scissors of victory! - Yui Hirasawa
avatar
Kiskaloo
A Cat of Many Talents

Male

Forum Posts : 10901

Location : Seattle / Tokyo / Milan

Fan of : Angelica's Smile

Original Characters : Kara Michelle

Comments : The community's international man of mystery.

Registration date : 2008-09-11

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by boomer_gonz on Sun 17 Jan 2010 - 20:52

I agree with this sentiment completely. The conditioning may have given her the nudge to take that 10% distance, but 'Sandro is the one that pulled her the full hundred.

Also, it is regarding this sentiment that gives me cause to believe that Danjo3's depiction of Allesandro is quite possibly the one most accurate to canon.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Power of Claes Compels You!!!
avatar
boomer_gonz

Male

Forum Posts : 2561

Location : California Republic

Fan of : Crystal Palace!!!

Original Characters : Alpha/Omega Fratello & Dr. Giacomo Gianncomo

Registration date : 2007-09-14

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 18 Jan 2010 - 11:18

Its not the medical staff that is making Petrushka fall in love with Allessandro, but the conditioning medication. Any meds that would sway your lookout and emotional balance in one regard, does so manipulating all the variables in one's head. The conditioning drug is used to (among other things) keep the loyalty to the handler, so it must affect other emotions tied to the handler as well, including attraction and love.

It would take a very strong mental and emotional compositional frame of mind to override what the drug does. It is possible (as I try to do with Rachel and Francesca) because many depressed and/or schizophrenic individuals seem to be not able to receive full treatment from the drugs they take no matter the dosage or strength of the medication, showing that their mental condition is stronger than the medication's ability to sway it to a positive direction.

It would be interesting to see a cyborg (canon or OC) in which the conditioning medication never worked because of a preexisting medical condition.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If Fernando had Super Powers, He would be God!
avatar
ElfenMagix

Male

Forum Posts : 5682

Location : NYC NY, USA

Fan of : Pia, Elsa, Cleas, Triela...

Original Characters : Fernando & Rachel, Felix & Francesca

Comments : He has super powers. He is God.

Registration date : 2007-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Petrushka

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 6 of 11 Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 5, 6, 7 ... 9, 10, 11  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum