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Re: Petrushka

Post by crazyidiot78 on Tue 29 May 2012 - 7:48

DOW your comments are on the mark. It is true people for the most part are healthier and living longer (the current obesity epidemic aside). This means that people are more likely to get conditions like cancer, and alzhimers, among other things. Another possibility is that the conditions in Australia have changed exposing the population to more carcinogenic materials, (I'm not sure what though as I have to do some research on that end). An example from another country is the higher risk of stomach cancer in japanese due to eating more mercury ladden tuna, or here in the USA with colon cancer due to our diet. Also in the Ukraine due to chernobyl and southern Chile and argentina with skin cancer due to the hole in the ozone layer. Also a large percentage of healthcare dollars being spent happen in the last few years of life as everything breaks down at once (this is a bit of simplification). Although I would add that certain diseases and conditions can kills you without a lack of oxygen to the brain. Traumatic head injuries where your brain is turned into swiss cheese, along with several other conditions that do the same thing.

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Three Dog on Tue 29 May 2012 - 7:55

@crazyidiot78 wrote: DOW your comments are on the mark.
Hell yeah! cheers I knew I had to get something correct this week. I can die happy now.

@crazyidiot78 wrote:Although I would add that certain diseases and conditions can kills you without a lack of oxygen to the brain. Traumatic head injuries where your brain is turned into swiss cheese, along with several other conditions that do the same thing.
And that's where Murphy interveens. I was certain I had mentioned something like, but I guess i'd forgotten . I'll have to pay more attention when I type. But at least I got one part right; your brain dying is the ultimate reason you die.

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Re: Petrushka

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 29 May 2012 - 14:50

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:Actually, if nothing else gets you, cancer will. I know it seems glum, but the cancer rate in Australia has increased form 1 in 5 peple to 1 in 3 people (I think). But that's becuase we have cures for more and more diseases, and our lives are becoming safer, so nothing else is actually getting to us. And a cancer is just uncrontrolled cell growth which can be difficult to prevent in same cases.

Though, if we want to get really technical, it's lack of oxygen to the brain that kills you. Not the cancer/stab wound/whatever fate hath dealt you.

(Now I'm waiting for our resident biologist to call me down for getting something wrong. I'm pretty sure I didn't but Murphy can strike when you least expect him)
No. Not always true and in most cases its not.
Death's final blow is brain death, but it is not because of lack of O2 that kills it in most occasions. The brain is a tricky think and it can be shut down. In short, give enough pain stimulus and the brain shuts down. Restarting a brain is down right impossible, thus there is no CPR for the Grey and White matter in your head. Besides, the skull gets in the way of doing it too. This is what kills most people in traumatic injuries. One gets shot of stabbed in a vital place, fall from a high place, gets into a car wreck, gets electrocuted, etc; even in ancient times, a sword to the right places causes instant death. This is why it happens - too much pain stimulus and the brain shuts down.

My favorite is Massive Cellular Discorporation, were individual cells are ripped part or otherwise blown up from pressures within or outside exceeding their structural strengths. This happens to everybody everyday on such a small scale that its not given any attention to. But raise the numbers of cells up by 3, 4, 5, 6 factors, then you begin to have death occur. Having an explosive blow up in front you - you will be discorporated into a fine mist of body fluids and bone fragments in a micro second. The brain has no time to react about dying other than having to be shut off in mid thought. It does not die from lack of O2 - hell there was more than enough O2 in the area to support the explosion in the first place! On a small scale, a Basilar Skull Fracture is Cellular Discorporation of the brain in such a scale thats un believable if you think about it. As the bone plates of the skull shift in a Basilar Fracture, it rips the connecting tissues if the skull and Brain, releasing Celecro/Spinal Fluid in the Brain Cavity. This increases pressures inside the brain causing more cells to discorporate and causes immediate death. This is what happened to Dale Enhart and many other race drivers as it is a rare injury that happens mostly in their sport. again, there is plenty of O2 going around at this time and the heart continues to pump O2 rich blood to the brain, but the Brain is too injured to deal with deficit loss on such a scale. it is one of a few body parts that takes years to heal!

Quick Acting Poisons act in several ways. As a neurotoxin, nerve and brain cells are killed by having their electrical components shut down, chemicals ripping apart the cell membrane (Cellular discorporation again), and ending the O2 transfer from the Blood. Some animal venom is just plan deadlier then Cyanide which can kill in under a second. But this is so quick in its actions that there is no time for the brain to react. Its like having your brain's electrical polarity reversed, and it can not withstand that kind of shift and dies immediately.

Cancer is when the host DNA breaks down and creates new genes and thus new cells. But much the original DNA is still intact so the immune defenses leaves it alone. One thing about cancer, many cancer patients complain about the pain associated with the disease that most give up the will to live because of that pain. When you lose the will the live, you can basically shut down your own brain with just a few thoughts, no matter how much modern medicine tries to keep you alive. It is disheartening seeing somebody go through this. I have with a few relatives. Back to point, its only rare that a few people die from the O2 decrease due to cancer. They mostly die from the pain associated with it. Lung Cancer, Cystic Fibrosis and maybe one or two others are medical conditions where you die from the lack of O2 in your blood, but no other cancers kills you in this way. Most cancers kill you by stealing vital resources such as nutrients from the blood and not the O2. This is what makes one weak, and when weakened enough, one dies.

In the recent past, more people died from the cancer treatments than they did from the actual cancer. A friend and an uncle of mine years ago both died from Stomach cancer, but the cause of death was from it directly stealing the food nutrients in the stomach, and those my friend and uncle both ate well, they basically starved to death from an opportunistic tumor stealing the food they ate. My grandmother had Lymphomia (Cancer for the Lymph Nodes) for more than 30 years. She out lived 2 of her own doctors who also had the disease. For some reason, though it made her weak, it did not kill her. She died from an infection she caught at the hospital.

So its not the Lack of Oxygen to the brain that kills you, its maybe 30% of the time that it happens. There are other causes to Death than just that.

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Re: Petrushka

Post by tremec6speed on Tue 29 May 2012 - 14:55

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:
@schaschanist wrote:
@Nachtsider wrote:I have to know what wound up being labelled as 'Rock Crap'.
I take he means the traditional "Plum Pudding" or "Christmas Pudding" which usually is known for it's solid consistency.

Unfortunately, no. It was a jar or Rock Crabs, that had been labelled Rock Crap. So not only is the word wrong, it's not a plural even properly puncuated. Here's Brian Regan to teach how to make something a plural
Do you know who's the cool illustrator of this video? Puzzled

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Thescarredman on Tue 29 May 2012 - 16:32

Elfen, you just had to pop the kid's bubble, didn't you?

Thanks for the wonderfully detailed if somewhat depressing monograph on the root causes of death. I think I may print it out.

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Re: Petrushka

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 29 May 2012 - 16:49

@Thescarredman wrote:Elfen, you just had to pop the kid's bubble, didn't you?

Thanks for the wonderfully detailed if somewhat depressing monograph on the root causes of death. I think I may print it out.
Why thank you.

Though there are many ways to die, dying from a lack of Oxygen can take days, and a sudden loss of O2 can take 4 - 8 minutes (if not submerged in Ice cold freezing water, then that can take hours...). But Death can be an instantaneous event. A "Lights Out!" event lasting less than a second. I was just trying to correct the facts here and not say that "YOU'RE WRONG! (do a happy dance)".

My fave is Cellular Discorporation because of the amount of energy needed to have it happen. Even in the case of Ebola and other Hemorrhagic Fevers where this happens, it take a lot of work by the infectious material to get the job done!

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Re: Petrushka

Post by crazyidiot78 on Tue 29 May 2012 - 19:50

@ElfenMagix wrote:
Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:Actually, if nothing else gets you, cancer will. I know it seems glum, but the cancer rate in Australia has increased form 1 in 5 peple to 1 in 3 people (I think). But that's becuase we have cures for more and more diseases, and our lives are becoming safer, so nothing else is actually getting to us. And a cancer is just uncrontrolled cell growth which can be difficult to prevent in same cases.

Though, if we want to get really technical, it's lack of oxygen to the brain that kills you. Not the cancer/stab wound/whatever fate hath dealt you.

(Now I'm waiting for our resident biologist to call me down for getting something wrong. I'm pretty sure I didn't but Murphy can strike when you least expect him)
No. Not always true and in most cases its not.
Death's final blow is brain death, but it is not because of lack of O2 that kills it in most occasions. The brain is a tricky think and it can be shut down. In short, give enough pain stimulus and the brain shuts down. Restarting a brain is down right impossible, thus there is no CPR for the Grey and White matter in your head. Besides, the skull gets in the way of doing it too. This is what kills most people in traumatic injuries. One gets shot of stabbed in a vital place, fall from a high place, gets into a car wreck, gets electrocuted, etc; even in ancient times, a sword to the right places causes instant death. This is why it happens - too much pain stimulus and the brain shuts down.

My favorite is Massive Cellular Discorporation, were individual cells are ripped part or otherwise blown up from pressures within or outside exceeding their structural strengths. This happens to everybody everyday on such a small scale that its not given any attention to. But raise the numbers of cells up by 3, 4, 5, 6 factors, then you begin to have death occur. Having an explosive blow up in front you - you will be discorporated into a fine mist of body fluids and bone fragments in a micro second. The brain has no time to react about dying other than having to be shut off in mid thought. It does not die from lack of O2 - hell there was more than enough O2 in the area to support the explosion in the first place! On a small scale, a Basilar Skull Fracture is Cellular Discorporation of the brain in such a scale thats un believable if you think about it. As the bone plates of the skull shift in a Basilar Fracture, it rips the connecting tissues if the skull and Brain, releasing Celecro/Spinal Fluid in the Brain Cavity. This increases pressures inside the brain causing more cells to discorporate and causes immediate death. This is what happened to Dale Enhart and many other race drivers as it is a rare injury that happens mostly in their sport. again, there is plenty of O2 going around at this time and the heart continues to pump O2 rich blood to the brain, but the Brain is too injured to deal with deficit loss on such a scale. it is one of a few body parts that takes years to heal!

Quick Acting Poisons act in several ways. As a neurotoxin, nerve and brain cells are killed by having their electrical components shut down, chemicals ripping apart the cell membrane (Cellular discorporation again), and ending the O2 transfer from the Blood. Some animal venom is just plan deadlier then Cyanide which can kill in under a second. But this is so quick in its actions that there is no time for the brain to react. Its like having your brain's electrical polarity reversed, and it can not withstand that kind of shift and dies immediately.

Cancer is when the host DNA breaks down and creates new genes and thus new cells. But much the original DNA is still intact so the immune defenses leaves it alone. One thing about cancer, many cancer patients complain about the pain associated with the disease that most give up the will to live because of that pain. When you lose the will the live, you can basically shut down your own brain with just a few thoughts, no matter how much modern medicine tries to keep you alive. It is disheartening seeing somebody go through this. I have with a few relatives. Back to point, its only rare that a few people die from the O2 decrease due to cancer. They mostly die from the pain associated with it. Lung Cancer, Cystic Fibrosis and maybe one or two others are medical conditions where you die from the lack of O2 in your blood, but no other cancers kills you in this way. Most cancers kill you by stealing vital resources such as nutrients from the blood and not the O2. This is what makes one weak, and when weakened enough, one dies.

In the recent past, more people died from the cancer treatments than they did from the actual cancer. A friend and an uncle of mine years ago both died from Stomach cancer, but the cause of death was from it directly stealing the food nutrients in the stomach, and those my friend and uncle both ate well, they basically starved to death from an opportunistic tumor stealing the food they ate. My grandmother had Lymphomia (Cancer for the Lymph Nodes) for more than 30 years. She out lived 2 of her own doctors who also had the disease. For some reason, though it made her weak, it did not kill her. She died from an infection she caught at the hospital.

So its not the Lack of Oxygen to the brain that kills you, its maybe 30% of the time that it happens. There are other causes to Death than just that.

Sorry bout that DOW, and Eflen, I had a bit to much fun (root liquer and cream soda/ Root liquer root beer and ice cream/ root liquer martini) at the time and forgot the loss of cellular cohesion. The following video will show the anime equivelant.

[youtube][/youtube][

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Three Dog on Wed 30 May 2012 - 2:09

@ElfenMagix wrote:
@Thescarredman wrote:Elfen, you just had to pop the kid's bubble, didn't you?

Thanks for the wonderfully detailed if somewhat depressing monograph on the root causes of death. I think I may print it out.
Why thank you.

Though there are many ways to die, dying from a lack of Oxygen can take days, and a sudden loss of O2 can take 4 - 8 minutes (if not submerged in Ice cold freezing water, then that can take hours...). But Death can be an instantaneous event. A "Lights Out!" event lasting less than a second. I was just trying to correct the facts here and not say that "YOU'RE WRONG! (do a happy dance)".

My fave is Cellular Discorporation because of the amount of energy needed to have it happen. Even in the case of Ebola and other Hemorrhagic Fevers where this happens, it take a lot of work by the infectious material to get the job done!
Nah, I don't mind. Honestly, I was waiting for something like this to happen. It always does.

@crazyidiot78 wrote:

Sorry bout that DOW, and Eflen, I had a
bit to much fun (root liquer and cream soda/ Root liquer root beer and
ice cream/ root liquer martini) at the time and forgot the loss of
cellular cohesion. The following video will show the anime equivelant.

[youtube][/youtube]
Nothing to appologise for. Though, I kinda wonder why the people all became bright orange. Doesn't seem right.

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Tross on Thu 31 May 2012 - 1:13

I think we need to come up with a new word for going off topic from our off topic topic.

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Three Dog on Thu 31 May 2012 - 3:50

@Tross wrote:I think we need to come up with a new word for going off topic from our off topic topic.
.
Nergalshnooffing. Trust me Wink

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Tross on Fri 1 Jun 2012 - 3:39

Wow, that has to be the most epic word anyone has made up to describe anything. It's full of epic win! cheers But, maybe we should hold a council meeting to vote on this, if for no other reason than so that I can use this emote(I'm hoping to find an occasion to use them all).
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Re: Petrushka

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 1 Jun 2012 - 3:44

Nergalshnoofing is now an official forum word.

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Three Dog on Fri 1 Jun 2012 - 4:37

@Nachtsider wrote:Nergalshnoofing is now an official forum word.
This is how I felt when I read this...









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Re: Petrushka

Post by Alfisti on Fri 1 Jun 2012 - 5:09

@Nachtsider wrote:Nergalshnoofing is now an official forum word.
Seconded.

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Schaschanist on Fri 1 Jun 2012 - 14:01

Nergalshnoofing? Awesome, just awesome!

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Tross on Sat 2 Jun 2012 - 0:58

Now I'm seriously contemplating inventing the word schmendaldorfing to describe the act of trying to find an occasion to use every emote in a forum that has a ton of them, including some interesting ones. And while I'm at it, were a whole ton more just added?
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Re: Petrushka

Post by Three Dog on Sat 2 Jun 2012 - 1:39

So we've nergalshnoofed and schmendaldorfed, huh? Take that Elish language







So... like that?

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Re: Petrushka

Post by 11thpareidolia on Sat 2 Jun 2012 - 1:55

Nergalshnoofing........ Full of Win

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Tross on Sat 2 Jun 2012 - 1:58

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:So we've nergalshnoofed and schmendaldorfed, huh? Take that Elish language







So... like that?

Shhhh....the blue-hairs who take this stuff seriously might have a heart attack. And yeah, that's the gist of it.
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Re: Petrushka

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 2 Jun 2012 - 10:25

Sniglits - words that should be in the dictionary, but aren't.

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Re: Petrushka

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 2 Jun 2012 - 15:52

@Tross wrote:I think we need to come up with a new word for going off topic from our off topic topic.
Death. Its what kills you.

With Petrushka now with some form of Lymphatic cancer, this discussion in my view has not gone to the OT Realm, thus a discussion of death and its causes seems to be right for this place here.

And depending on what kind of cancer she has, she can be fine with it for years!

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Schaschanist on Sat 2 Jun 2012 - 16:56

@ElfenMagix wrote:
@Tross wrote:I think we need to come up with a new word for going off topic from our off topic topic.
Death. Its what kills you.

With Petrushka now with some form of Lymphatic cancer, this discussion in my view has not gone to the OT Realm, thus a discussion of death and its causes seems to be right for this place here.

And depending on what kind of cancer she has, she can be fine with it for years!
How it sounded in the latest translation it seems to be very serious. Sounds like she has just some months or a half year left to live.

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Tross on Sat 2 Jun 2012 - 17:28

Well, I'm not up to date on that, since I've opted to wait for the Seven Seas releases, but I guess I'm asking for spoilers when I post in a thread dedicated to one of the major characters. But, considering the cyborgs have a limited remaining lifespan as it is, death is a fitting theme in general. It's only a matter of time. Also, wasn't it the Chernobyl disaster that caused Petra's osteosarcoma or whatever it's called, which prompted her to attempt suicide and land herself in the cyborg program? From what I've heard, victims of that disaster can be particularly cancer prone, and it doesn't always end with one form of cancer.
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Re: Petrushka

Post by crazyidiot78 on Sat 2 Jun 2012 - 17:52

My thinking was that Petruska has Acute Erythroicite leukemia which has a median survivial of 36 weeks with some types of it being a little longer or shorter based on the paticular mutation. However in general most cancers would give a longer prognosis depending on the type. Given the way Yu seems to be playing things it sounds like it is the later rather than teh fomer.
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Re: Petrushka

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 3 Jun 2012 - 12:09

While I still hate Petra, Iíve actually warmed up a bit to the other gen2ís, especially Fio/Soni. It would be really cool to see how this unique sorella team interacts with one another.

Sorry folks, derailed the thread again.

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Three Dog on Sun 3 Jun 2012 - 18:08

@Danjo3 wrote:While I still hate Petra, Iíve actually warmed up a bit to the other gen2ís, especially Fio/Soni. It would be really cool to see how this unique sorella team interacts with one another.
I'd actually like to here more about Gattonero too. From what I remember both her and Soni gave Petra a hard time about her 'special relationship' with her Handler, so they're alright in my book.

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Thescarredman on Sun 3 Jun 2012 - 18:59

Sounds like Yu may have some success rebooting this manga with new and reinvented characters, judging by the interest on this site. But then, we've always been willing to explore alternatives within GsG, eh?
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Re: Petrushka

Post by Professor Voodoo on Sun 3 Jun 2012 - 20:42

@Thescarredman wrote: we've always been willing to explore alternatives within GsG, eh?
Wait...you mean some of the folks here deviate from canon? *dramatic gasp*

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Thescarredman on Sun 3 Jun 2012 - 22:09

Well... I wouldn't go THAT far...
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Re: Petrushka

Post by Thescarredman on Sun 3 Jun 2012 - 22:13

@Danjo3 wrote:While I still hate Petra, Iíve actually warmed up a bit to the other gen2ís, especially Fio/Soni. It would be really cool to see how this unique sorella team interacts with one another.

Sorry folks, derailed the thread again.



At least you mentioned Petra.
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Re: Petrushka

Post by Tross on Mon 4 Jun 2012 - 2:28

Well, I wouldn't call that the most out there of thread derailments. It's a related topic, and given our habits, I wouldn't say that even registers on the Cyborg Central thread derailment radar. But, since we have now deviated a little from the main topic, we have another chance to nergalshnoof! cheers I really thought we had before, but ElfenMagix kindly pointed out that we just missed the mark by going kind of on topic. But, that's ok, because as the saying goes, "if at first you don't succeed, try, try again".
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Re: Petrushka

Post by Three Dog on Mon 4 Jun 2012 - 3:34

@Tross wrote:Well, I wouldn't call that the most out there of thread derailments. It's a related topic, and given our habits, I wouldn't say that even registers on the Cyborg Central thread derailment radar. But, since we have now deviated a little from the main topic, we have another chance to nergalshnoof! cheers I really thought we had before, but ElfenMagix kindly pointed out that we just missed the mark by going kind of on topic. But, that's ok, because as the saying goes, "if at first you don't succeed, try, try again".
Don't foget schmendaldorfing Razz

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 4 Jun 2012 - 3:37

@Thescarredman wrote:
@Danjo3 wrote:While I still hate Petra, Iíve actually warmed up a bit to the other gen2ís, especially Fio/Soni. It would be really cool to see how this unique sorella team interacts with one another.

Sorry folks, derailed the thread again.
At least you mentioned Petra.
When Yu offed Triela and Henrietta, he ripped the guts out of the original story, so as far as Iím concerned itís over. If he wants to reinvent GSG, the first thing he needs to do it put Petra on a bus.
Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:I'd actually like to here more about Gattonero too.
Yeah, she's kind of interesting too. I could see her as being the new leader of the pack.


Last edited by Danjo3 on Mon 4 Jun 2012 - 5:01; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Three Dog on Mon 4 Jun 2012 - 4:18

@Danjo3 wrote:
@Thescarredman wrote:
@Danjo3 wrote:While I still hate Petra, Iíve actually warmed up a bit to the other gen2ís, especially Fio/Soni. It would be really cool to see how this unique sorella team interacts with one another.

Sorry folks, derailed the thread again.
At least you mentioned Petra.
When Yu offed Triela and Henrietta, he ripped the guts out of the original story, so as far as Iím concerned itís over. If he wants to reinvent GSG, the first thing he needs to do it put Petra on a bus.
Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:I'd actually like to here more about Gattonero too.
Yeah, she kind of interesting too. I could see her as being the new leader of the pack.
So the plan is to throw Petra in front of a bus and stalk Soni and Gattonerro instead? Oh, and that other girl, you know, the one with the freckles . Aw... you know... Freckles... no. Or Frankenstein... no. Or.... FLECCIA!!! Haha, I knew I would get it. Anyway, I'm sure she'd be interesting too.
I actually like Petra, but her arc has just gotten a borring and I miss Triela's 'can do' attitude. I say less Petra and more Rico, she's the only one of my favourites that's still alive and I want to know what's going on.
To be honest though, I like Gattoneroo because of her hair, it just looks cool and practical. I kept waiting for Triela's pony tails to get caught in a door. Hell, if I were Aida, i'd have based an entire story arc around it.

Wow, that's kind an erratic post, ain't it?

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 4 Jun 2012 - 5:26

Iím still trying to figure out the name Gattonero. Black cat?

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Three Dog on Mon 4 Jun 2012 - 5:28

@Danjo3 wrote:Iím still trying to figure out the name Gattonero. Black cat?
Now I'm confused Puzzled. I thought it was just another European name I had never heard before.

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Alfisti on Mon 4 Jun 2012 - 7:06

@Danjo3 wrote:Iím still trying to figure out the name Gattonero. Black cat?
I assume her handler either read Marvel comics or was a fan of early 1980's Italian horror/thriller films based on Edgar Allan Poe...

...or, you know, he just pulled it out of thin air.

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Re: Petrushka

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 5 Jun 2012 - 11:41

@schaschanist wrote:
@ElfenMagix wrote:
@Tross wrote:I think we need to come up with a new word for going off topic from our off topic topic.
Death. Its what kills you.

With Petrushka now with some form of Lymphatic cancer, this discussion in my view has not gone to the OT Realm, thus a discussion of death and its causes seems to be right for this place here.

And depending on what kind of cancer she has, she can be fine with it for years!
How it sounded in the latest translation it seems to be very serious. Sounds like she has just some months or a half year left to live.
There are cancers in which you can live with for years on end. Only problem is that you would be in pain most of the time. Non-Hotchkins(sp?) Lymphoma is such a cancer of the Lymph Nodes. Like I said before, my Grandmother had it diagnosed in 1969 and died not from it but from an infection she picked up at a hospital stay in 1997. That is almost 30 years she had the disease and not kill her, though it did cause her a great deal of pain. Hell, she out-lived two of her doctors who also had it.

The issue with Petra is what exact kind of cancer she has. Until then its just speculation that she is going to die in 6 weeks or 30 years.

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Re: Petrushka

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 5 Jun 2012 - 11:45

@Danjo3 wrote:
@Thescarredman wrote:
@Danjo3 wrote:While I still hate Petra, Iíve actually warmed up a bit to the other gen2ís, especially Fio/Soni. It would be really cool to see how this unique sorella team interacts with one another.

Sorry folks, derailed the thread again.
At least you mentioned Petra.
When Yu offed Triela and Henrietta, he ripped the guts out of the original story, so as far as Iím concerned itís over. If he wants to reinvent GSG, the first thing he needs to do it put Petra on a bus.
Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:I'd actually like to here more about Gattonero too.
Yeah, she's kind of interesting too. I could see her as being the new leader of the pack.
I was thinking of putting Allessandro under that bus. He's the problems that Petra has had from the beginning. Without Henrietta, Triela, Angie and Bea, its not Gunslinger Girl anymore. Its "Government Agency Trying To Cover Its Ass For The Mistakes Its Made" in the series.

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Three Dog on Tue 5 Jun 2012 - 18:01

@ElfenMagix wrote:
@Danjo3 wrote:
@Thescarredman wrote:
@Danjo3 wrote:While I still hate Petra, Iíve actually warmed up a bit to the other gen2ís, especially Fio/Soni. It would be really cool to see how this unique sorella team interacts with one another.

Sorry folks, derailed the thread again.
At least you mentioned Petra.
When Yu offed Triela and Henrietta, he ripped the guts out of the original story, so as far as Iím concerned itís over. If he wants to reinvent GSG, the first thing he needs to do it put Petra on a bus.
Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:I'd actually like to here more about Gattonero too.
Yeah, she's kind of interesting too. I could see her as being the new leader of the pack.
I was thinking of putting Allessandro under that bus. He's the problems that Petra has had from the beginning. Without Henrietta, Triela, Angie and Bea, its not Gunslinger Girl anymore. Its "Government Agency Trying To Cover Its Ass For The Mistakes Its Made" in the series.
Hey, Rico's still kicking. THought I sotra agree with you on 'Sandro, he's right down there with Jose in my books. THere's no particular reason for it, I just don't like the guy, being all self loathing because there's no one that can understand him aside from a 16 (at least I think she's 16 now) year old girl. Give me a break, man up and get over it 'Sandro, life sucks, and there's nothing you can do about.

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Tross on Wed 6 Jun 2012 - 1:20

So Yu Aida did off Triela. I knew he would, eventually. Since Triela's
my favorite, that to me is a bigger deal than offing Angelica and
Henrietta combined, but I knew her story was going to end in death
anyways. It was kind of a given for all the girls from the very
beginning. To use my favorite quote from the movie Stranger than Fiction: "It's the nature of all tragedies. The hero dies, but the story continues on forever." In this case, the term would be heroes, plural, or maybe heroines, if you want to get technical. Even then though, I also consider the handlers to be main protagonists, so I'd refer to the fratellos as a whole, as heroes. Anyways, this series isn't driven by a particular character, or even a particular fratello. Each character has his or her own role to play, but at the end of the day, it's the agency that's at the center of everything, as opposed to a lead character of any kind. I think of it more like a stage, where characters come and go, but the play continues on.

While I'm not particularly thrilled about what I've heard about what's been happening lately, it wouldn't be the first time I went into a story arc, expecting to hate the outcome. As a Franca fan, I didn't think I'd care much for the arc where her and Franco are killed off. But, they served their purpose, and I can't say I've really missed them in the current storyline. I was expecting to hate the idea of the Gen 2 cyborgs being teens, but when I reached the point where Petra comes in, I didn't mind it at all, and while I didn't exactly care for the notion of her and Sandro(more Sandro than her) hogging the spotlight for two full volumes(which is one omnibus), I did enjoy those chapters. In other words, while I'm not particularly thrilled about what I've heard lately, I'm expecting it to be good. Sure, character deaths aren't happy occasions, but Angelica's was handled so well that I couldn't think of a better sendoff.

Actually, it's kind of weird. I like this series for all the reasons I'd usually hate others. I don't like it when my favorite characters are offed, especially if they were around from day 1. I don't like it when characters who are introduced a good while after the story starts come in and take the spotlight from established characters. And I certainly don't like it when my favorite characters are offed and replaced with new ones. I tend not to like tragedies, because I prefer it when it works out for the characters in the end. But, somehow, I love Gunslinger Girl, despite all of the above happening in it. I think it's because of how well it has been written, at least up until the latest omnibus, which is all I've read up to. I support Yu Aida's decision, whether he chooses to continue the series, or end it, and will until I have any reason not to. Then again, I haven't read the current stuff, so maybe it's worse than it sounds. study
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Re: Petrushka

Post by Three Dog on Wed 6 Jun 2012 - 3:23

@Tross wrote:So Yu Aida did off Triela.
I still want to know how Hillshire died, I don't remember him getting shot or anything like that. One minute he's hugging Triela, the next he's dead. Did she hug him to death Puzzled? Did he catch a very, very, very bad cold in the snow? Seriously how did he die!?

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Tross on Wed 6 Jun 2012 - 3:59

Hillshire died too? Well, I guess it's just as well, considering there wouldn't be much to his story without Triela. Like I said, I'm not up on the current manga, but if he died without it being explained, that doesn't sound good at all. I guess I'll have to find out how that's handled later.
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Re: Petrushka

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 6 Jun 2012 - 4:27

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:I still want to know how Hillshire died, I don't remember him getting shot or anything like that. One minute he's hugging Triela, the next he's dead. Did she hug him to death Puzzled? Did he catch a very, very, very bad cold in the snow? Seriously how did he die!?



Triela loved him to death.

Seriously, though, I don't know anymore. I stopped caring about the manga after Petra appeared.

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Three Dog on Wed 6 Jun 2012 - 6:44

@Tross wrote:Hillshire died too? Well, I guess it's just as well, considering there wouldn't be much to his story without Triela. Like I said, I'm not up on the current manga, but if he died without it being explained, that doesn't sound good at all. I guess I'll have to find out how that's handled later.
Sorry to spoil it man, I forgot you were a bit behind the rest of of us, sorry.

@Nachtsider wrote:Seriously, though, I don't know anymore. I stopped caring about the manga after Petra appeared.
I know I'm probably kicking the hornet's nest here, but... do you just hate the Seconds "because they are fan service", "because teenagers don't fit with the 'she is still an adolescnet child'", or other? Or is it just Petra?

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 6 Jun 2012 - 7:56

It's all the second-gens.

I won't deny that the fanservice thing influences my thinking (elements of fanservice totally take away from the serious drama that is GSG), but your second hypothesis is what holds truest. The fact that the girls of GSG were innocent little children truly set it apart from any other 'girls with guns' title. Introduce teenage girls, and it becomes little better than Noir or Kite.

Also, the second-gens have not truly advanced or added to the story in any way. You could take them out of the picture, and it wouldn't really make a difference, if any difference at all.

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Three Dog on Wed 6 Jun 2012 - 7:59

@Nachtsider wrote:It's all the second-gens.

I won't deny that the fanservice thing influences my thinking (elements of fanservice totally take away from the serious drama that is GSG), but your second hypothesis is what holds truest. The fact that the girls of GSG were innocent little children truly set it apart from any other 'girls with guns' title. Introduce teenage girls, and it becomes little better than Noir or Kite.

Also, the second-gens have not truly advanced or added to the story in any way. You could take them out of the picture, and it wouldn't really make a difference, if any difference at all.
I suppoes you're right. Still, without them, this thread would not exist, there would be less to argua about, and our very lives would have been changed forever!

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 6 Jun 2012 - 12:56

If not for the Series Two, I wouldn't be here, so I can't be too harsh on them. Smile

That being said, my issue with the Second Generation is that we really only get to see Petrushka. The other girls are there pretty much as window-dressing and have mostly added nothing to the story (though that is entirely Yu's fault as an author). Petrushka, on the other hand, has allowed different stories to be told since she's a spy, not an assassin/combat solider.

I think it might have worked better if Petrushka was the only Gen 2 and was added to test the implants in an older girl (since the true purpose of the cybernetic enhancement program is for civilian use - they just militarized it because it offered benefits). Pairing her with Sandro and using her as a spy would have made sense - they don't want to risk her being damaged so early in the testing stage.

As to fan service, I think she's the hottest cyborg, but other than that... Yes, she's worn a sports bra, but so has Triela and we've seen Claes in an underwear bra and I believe Yu has had Henrietta flash her panties once or twice. And when you consider doujin and erotic fan art, it's all about Henrietta, Rico, Claes and Triela having sex - never Petrushka or the other girls. Go figure

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Deathly-Hallows on Wed 6 Jun 2012 - 13:04

@Kiskaloo wrote:If not for the Series Two, I wouldn't be here, so I can't be too harsh on them. Smile

That being said, my issue with the Second Generation is that we really only get to see Petrushka. The other girls are there pretty much as window-dressing and have mostly added nothing to the story (though that is entirely Yu's fault as an author). Petrushka, on the other hand, has allowed different stories to be told since she's a spy, not an assassin/combat solider.

I think it might have worked better if Petrushka was the only Gen 2 and was added to test the implants in an older girl (since the true purpose of the cybernetic enhancement program is for civilian use - they just militarized it because it offered benefits). Pairing her with Sandro and using her as a spy would have made sense - they don't want to risk her being damaged so early in the testing stage.

As to fan service, I think she's the hottest cyborg, but other than that... Yes, she's worn a sports bra, but so has Triela and we've seen Claes in an underwear bra and I believe Yu has had Henrietta flash her panties once or twice. And when you consider doujin and erotic fan art, it's all about Henrietta, Rico, Claes and Triela having sex - never Petrushka or the other girls. Go figure
well for me petrushka is...actually really ugly... I just find spikey hair like that really atrocious and with the green eyes she reminds me of the wendys girl. I think that way in the story would be better off as well, and well teens are becoming to mainstream for fanart and sorts. but you just gotta love lolis Razz
(ahh im not gonna be to active in this thread snice i havent read the entire manga yet ubu ;x;)

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Tross on Wed 6 Jun 2012 - 15:26

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:
Sorry to spoil it man, I forgot you were a bit behind the rest of of us, sorry.

That's ok. That sort of thing used to bother me, and still does with other series, but I've found that no amount of spoilers could ruin this series for me. Smile It doesn't matter what I've heard. So far, it has always been better than it sounds in its approach. I knew Angelica died well in advance, but I wasn't prepared for her beyond beautiful sendoff. All I'm saying is, hearing about these events in passing hardly tends to do them justice, and I look forward to finding out how it plays out, which is something that can't be spoiled for me. And I'm playing with fire anyways, by joining in on discussions with those who are up to date on the series. I kind of asked for it anyways.

I actually think the second gens add a whole new element to the story. As I've mentioned before, they have potential, due to being a completely different beast to tame than adolescent girls. My problem so far has been that, despite the number of Gen 2s going up all the time, and the number of Gen 1s dwindling, Petra has been the only one so far who has had any real panel time. Sure, she's a bit of a spotlight hog. I'd argue that that is only by extension of Sandro being a spotlight hog, since volume 8 actually had a lot more to do with him than her. The flashback chapters in the Lady Rosso(which apparently translates to Lady Red) arc didn't even have Petra in them at all. study But, even so, I appreciate her as a character that kind of has a connection with both Gens. Since she was the first Gen 2, she had no choice but to associate with the Gen 1s, whereas all the other Gen 2s haven't. But, Petra alone can't represent all the Gen 2s. The spotlight has still favored the Gen 1s overall, due to more of them being main characters. By the sounds of things that Gattonero character sounds like a step in the right direction. Plus, the series would need more spotlight characters in general now. But, I think that should be fine, as long as Claes and Rico are still around too.

As for the fanservice thing, I think people who make that kind of fanart need to get some help. It's certainly not what this series is about, and it really just cheapens everything that Yu Aida has done with the series. But, it does favor the Gen 1s. To be fair though, even Yu Aida has kind of exploited the Gen 1s. You guys forgot to mention Triela's shower scene in chapter 50. But, you have to realize, neither the Japanese nor the Europeans make a big deal out of things like that, like we do in NA. I bet it isn't even thought of as fanservice. But, I can't defend Yu Aida on the cover of omnibus 2. Yeah, that one is a little unfortunate.
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Re: Petrushka

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 6 Jun 2012 - 15:53

Was the shower scene presented in a titillating or gratuitous manner? Not a rhetorical question; I genuinely don't know, since I haven't seen it.

Remind me again what the cover of ominbus 2 looked like; I haven't seen that, either.

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Tross on Wed 6 Jun 2012 - 17:43

@Nachtsider wrote:Was the shower scene presented in a titillating or gratuitous manner? Not a rhetorical question; I genuinely don't know, since I haven't seen it.
I'm going to say no on that one, which only supports my view that that wasn't supposed to be fanservice.

@Nachtsider wrote:Remind me again what the cover of ominbus 2 looked like; I haven't seen that, either.


You're welcome. Razz
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Re: Petrushka

Post by Three Dog on Wed 6 Jun 2012 - 18:13

@Tross wrote:
Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:
Sorry to spoil it man, I forgot you were a bit behind the rest of of us, sorry.

That's ok.
Few, it's all good then

@Tross wrote:As for the fanservice thing, I think people who make that kind of fanart need to get some help.
Amen to that, brother. Unfortunatley, rule 34 will plague the world forever. Especially when the girls are underage. THis may just be me being prudish, but the under age stuff deos make it seem like there are a lot of pedophiles out there. *shivers* that stuff hust ain't right.

@Kiskaloo wrote:And when you consider doujin and erotic fan art, it's all about Henrietta, Rico, Claes and Triela having sex
I didn't need that mentle image, mate. I hold you responsible for all my mentle issues for the rest of my life Razz

And the cover above still creeps me out a bit.

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Deathly-Hallows on Wed 6 Jun 2012 - 20:30

@Tross wrote:As for the fanservice thing, I think people who make that kind of fanart need to get some help.
Amen to that, brother. Unfortunatley, rule 34 will plague the world forever. Especially when the girls are underage. THis may just be me being prudish, but the under age stuff deos make it seem like there are a lot of pedophiles out there. *shivers* that stuff hust ain't right.
actually its a newish thing for rule 34 but they're actually removing all under aged art

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 6 Jun 2012 - 21:28

@Tross wrote:As for the fanservice thing...It's certainly not what this series is about, and it really just cheapens everything that Yu Aida has done with the series.

Honestly, they're just following in Yu's footsteps as the eroge video game Bittersweet Fools could be considered the foundation for Gunslinger Girls.

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Re: Petrushka

Post by tremec6speed on Wed 6 Jun 2012 - 22:53

Ultimately, I guess one can pick and choose what you like about the series and focus on that.
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Re: Petrushka

Post by Tross on Thu 7 Jun 2012 - 2:15

@Kiskaloo wrote:
@Tross wrote:As for the fanservice thing...It's certainly not what this series is about, and it really just cheapens everything that Yu Aida has done with the series.

Honestly, they're just following in Yu's footsteps as the eroge video game Bittersweet Fools could be considered the foundation for Gunslinger Girls.

That was an eroge? I'm not sure how to respond to that. Well, if that's the case, I like to think Yu turned over a new leaf with GG.

Interestingly enough, when I looked up the above cover, I also decided to check and see if omnibus 5's cover is up. It's not, but for some reason, google images not only came up with the previous omnibus covers, but it also came up with the one for the Blood Alone omnibus. Talk about a terrible series. There's absolutely zero chance that I have a copy of that omnibus in my collection. Zero chance. I wonder when the next omnibus is coming out?
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Re: Petrushka

Post by Nachtsider on Thu 7 Jun 2012 - 2:19

(looks at cover of omnibus 2)

Doesn't look fanservice-y at all. I see nothing sexual about it.

Destroyer of Worlds ;D wrote:
Amen to that, brother. Unfortunatley, rule 34 will plague the world forever. Especially when the girls are underage. THis may just be me being prudish, but the under age stuff deos make it seem like there are a lot of pedophiles out there. *shivers* that stuff hust ain't right.
Whomever is aroused by that stuff IS a pedophile. No ifs, ands or buts.

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Re: Petrushka

Post by Danjo3 on Thu 7 Jun 2012 - 2:32

Iíve always felt Yu went hog wild on Petra. He not only made her a total sex kitten, but he also took all of the best qualities and personality traits from the other girls and tried to stuff them all into her character. Throw her Ďspecial relationshipí with Sandro on top of that and you have a dandy Mary-Sue cocktail. While itís easy to sympathize with the other girls, itís impossible to do with little Miss Perfect.

I genuinely hope that if Yu decides to continue the story, heíll take a lesson from the first generation and tries to make the other gen2 girlís a little more relatable. If he does, I think thereís a definite possibility it just might work.
@Nachtsider wrote:(looks at cover of omnibus 2)

Doesn't look fanservice-y at all. I see nothing sexual about it.
The way Triela looks is more depressing than anything else.



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Re: Petrushka

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