Alessandro Ricci

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 9:29

@LoC978 wrote:...and despite all arguments to the contrary, I still say Alessandro is doing wrong by letting himself so much as lovingly caress her cheek. Putting aside the questionable reasons of age and free will, she is still his subordinate and trainee. He's supposed to be a professional.

But yet people do backflips and soumersaults of joy because Triela declared her love for Hillshire and jumped into his lap and passionately kissed him. Or clasps his arm. Or gets up on her tippy-toes to give him a peck on the cheek before a mission.

It's this...double-standard...that grinds my gears (with apologies to Peter Griffin). And when you consider Sandro is probably, at best, twice Petra's physical/chronological age while Hillshire is probably closer to three time's Triela's physical age (and still twice her chronological), I don't understand why Hillshire and Triela's relationship is considered "proper" while Sandro and Petra's is considered "improper". If it's improper for one, should it not be improper for both? Both are supervisors and their charges are significantly younger than them.

I can't help but distill it down to a simple answer: "We like Triela, so it's great that she and Hillshire are affectionate and we anxiously await more. But we hate Petra, so Sandro is a pedophile who should be ashamed at allowing such unprofessional behavior between superior and subordinate."

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 9:47

Let me make one thing clear - I would be the first person to turn up my nose if Hillshire and Triela ever got more than merely affectionate. For the record, I also believe that Hillshire would probably be shocked if Triela kissed him on the lips back then and he found out about it (never mind the fact that I believe she kissed him on the cheek).

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 10:38

@Danjo3 wrote:
@LoC978 wrote: Musculature, flexibility, and stamina. Two more crucial elements are up in the air (desire and instinct). She could still possibly be terrible in bed.
As far as Iím concerned itís all about desire and experience. Being a ballerina has nothing to do with it.
Just because she can place her ankles behind her head does not mean that she will be great in bed. As far as we know- she can just lay there while 'Sandro does all the dirty work.

@Danjo3 wrote:
@MikhailN wrote:If I remember Jose hardly touches Henrietta and one of the characters comments about it.
Actually it was Priscilla who said that.
It was actually both, and at least 1 more by I forgot who.
In The Pasta Prince Chapters/Episode, Bianchi tells Jose this.
In later chapters (I think in V4) Bianchi has another talk with Jose. This time Jose gives Henrietta a pinch on the cheek, and she was mortified by it!
In V3 or V4, Priscilla makes a comment to him about being more open to Henrietta in from of the others.

In short- people care about Henrietta and how Jose cares for her.

But Jose better watch himself... Henrietta did warned him at the end of V1- "If I loved someone and that love was not returned, I would kill that person, then I would do this.", and she places her gun to her eye.


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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Danjo3 on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 10:40

@Nachtsider wrote:For the record, I also believe that Hillshire would probably be shocked if Triela kissed him on the lips back then and he found out about it (never mind the fact that I believe she kissed him on the cheek).
Excellent point. Keep in mind that itís Triela whoís making the advances not Hillshire. Heís doing nothing what so ever to encourage her. Sandro on the other hand is practically raping Petra (Yes, I am among those who think heís boinking her). Thereís no way in hell you can put these two relationships in the same category.

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 10:48

@LoC978 wrote:Giuseppe seems to be attempting a balancing act with her need for affection against her focus on the job. After all, despite his myriad emotional problems, he's actually a professional.

I also believe that he sees Henrietta as a surrogate for his dead sister Enrica so that surely plays a role in how he relates to her.

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 10:54

@Kiskaloo wrote:
@LoC978 wrote:Giuseppe seems to be attempting a balancing act with her need for affection against her focus on the job. After all, despite his myriad emotional problems, he's actually a professional.

I also believe that he sees Henrietta as a surrogate for his dead sister Enrica so that surely plays a role in how he relates to her.

@Danjo3 wrote:Keep in mind that itís Triela whoís making the advances not Hillshire. Heís doing nothing what so ever to encourage her.

I'd argue that. He's certainly not actively leading her on, but I don't see Triela as a "reverse loli-con" - someone like Rin Kokonoe from Kodomo no Jikan or Ivy from Poison Ivy - who has an infatuation for older men.



At this point, I consider my current draft to be good for publishing.

Going forward, maybe we should just create a separate "Sandro and Petra Suck" thread so people can put all their negative comments in there and we don't have to keep watching any and every thread about either of them degenerate into the same argument.

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Danjo3 on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 11:04

@Kiskaloo wrote:Going forward, maybe we should just create a separate "Sandro and Petra Suck" thread so people can put all their negative comments in there and we don't have to keep watching any and every thread about either of them degenerate into the same argument.
They suck too much to be confined to one thread. Their suck must be free to run wild! Free I tell you! Hissy fit

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 11:07

@Danjo3 wrote:
@Nachtsider wrote:For the record, I also believe that Hillshire would probably be shocked if Triela kissed him on the lips back then and he found out about it (never mind the fact that I believe she kissed him on the cheek).
Excellent point. Keep in mind that itís Triela whoís making the advances not Hillshire. Heís doing nothing what so ever to encourage her. Sandro on the other hand is practically raping Petra (Yes, I am among those who think heís boinking her). Thereís no way in hell you can put these two relationships in the same category.

I agree.

And I'll add this: Despite any arguements on Petra's love being forced by the conditioning medication, What 'Sandro does to her is Rape. Dr. Belongi's statements of Petra's love not being caused by the condition medication in my view are a lie. In the past, all the First Gen cyborgs are in love with their handlers, and each display that love in different ways to their handlers. Elsa was the only one who killed her handler for reasons we know. Now here is Petra, undergoing the same or simillar treatment in taking a drug whose second componant is to make her loyal to her handler, and who is now in love with her handler- Dr. Belongi is beside himself with another possible Elsa incident sitting right there on his examination table, and he has no way to correct this in his view. Thus to save his own ass and the asses of his medical staff- he's putting blame on Petra and not the medication that is swaying her into that emotional direction of loyalty.

Here in NYC/NYS, there is a sub law in the Rape laws which says: If a victim was made into a willing participant in a sexual act due to the affects of a drug, alcohol, mental manipulation or other cause, it is still Rape (Second Degree- Punishable by up to 10 years in prison). Petra is under the influence of a drug to make her loyal to 'Sandro and follow his orders, even if such orders are for her to drop her panties for him. In my view, this shows how much of a low life 'Sandro is, because this shows that he is taking advantage of her even if she allows herself to be a willing participant and because these are the laws I live under. To prove me wrong- how would Petra act without the conditioning medication upping her loyalty levels?

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by MikhailN on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 11:07

@Danjo3 wrote:They suck too much to be confined to one thread. Their suck must be free to run wild!

That was so wrong... Embarassed

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 11:12

@Kiskaloo wrote:At this point, I consider my current draft to be good for publishing.
I never questioned if your draft was good for publishing. Only thing I question was the use of the word "Budding" as a descriptive term to describe Petra and 'Sandro's relationship. Other than that, its seems fine to post to me.

I would suggest to keep it simple and just say that Petra is 'Sandro's cyborg and leave it at that.

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 11:12

Well I'll just selectively impose my "ignore user" function as I see necessary, then.

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by LoC978 on Sat 18 Jul 2009 - 13:35

Triela/Hillshire
far from wholesome, I see it as tragic. The difference is, whatever Hillshire feels, he doesn't actively pursue his charge (and I'm one of those who thinks he sees her as a daughter anyway)

Petra/'Sandro
Publish it. Our controversy doesn't need to be on wikipedia. Just the facts, Jack.



Elfen wrote:Just because she can place her ankles behind her head does not mean that she will be great in bed.
No, but it certainly helps. Wink
Elfen wrote: As far as we know- she can just lay there while 'Sandro does all the dirty work.
this is when instinct and desire come in, experience be damned... lets just say experience doesn't keep a woman with no instincts and too much 'shame' from acting like that, no matter how much she desires what she's getting. That's my experience, anyway.

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by emperor on Sun 19 Jul 2009 - 5:34



Elfen wrote:Just because she can place her ankles behind her head does not mean that she will be great in bed.
No, but it certainly helps. Wink

Razz You're RIGHT!! Laughing


Another point that we should add or not about her is that Sandro had a bad feeling with redhead women?






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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 19 Jul 2009 - 7:07

@LoC978 wrote:
Triela/Hillshire
far from wholesome, I see it as tragic. The difference is, whatever Hillshire feels, he doesn't actively pursue his charge (and I'm one of those who thinks he sees her as a daughter anyway)
I agree. I donít know how their story is going to play out, but itís not looking to good. I think if Triela keeps pushing things, eventually Hillshireís going to have to set her straight and that would break her cybernetic little heart. And I know for a fact thatís the last thing he wants to do. The poor guys really caught between a rock and a hard place.

Wow, kind of reminds me of another story. just whistlin'

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by MadHatChemist on Sun 19 Jul 2009 - 18:41

Nachtsider wrote:For the record, I also
believe that Hillshire would probably be shocked if Triela kissed him
on the lips back then and he found out about it (never mind the fact
that I believe she kissed him on the cheek).
Excellent
point. Keep in mind that itís Triela whoís making the advances not
Hillshire. Heís doing nothing what so ever to encourage her. Sandro on
the other hand is practically raping Petra (Yes, I am among those who
think heís boinking her). Thereís no way in hell you can put these two
relationships in the same category.

That is a big difference between the two.

Also, regardless of if the girls are of legal age, or if girls that age are mature enough to make that decision or not, the fratello are in a position of power over the girls. The girls are programed to obey, and don't really have a full choice in the matter.

If anything were to happen between Triela and Hilshire, it'll be after a very long history between them. That is something that hadn't developed yet with Petra and Allessandro.
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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 19 Jul 2009 - 19:03

@MadHatChemist wrote:
Also, regardless of if the girls are of legal age, or if girls that age are mature enough to make that decision or not, the fratello are in a position of power over the girls. The girls are programed to obey, and don't really have a full choice in the matter.
HOW LONG HAVE I BEEN SAYING THAT?!!! :lol!:

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 2:50

@ElfenMagix wrote:
@MadHatChemist wrote:
Also, regardless of if the girls are of legal age, or if girls that age are mature enough to make that decision or not, the fratello are in a position of power over the girls. The girls are programed to obey, and don't really have a full choice in the matter.
HOW LONG HAVE I BEEN SAYING THAT?!!! :lol!:
I will never understand why this doesnít register with some people. This is one point you can NOT get around.

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by MikhailN on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 3:00

@Danjo3 wrote:
@ElfenMagix wrote:
@MadHatChemist wrote:
Also, regardless of if the girls are of legal age, or if girls that age are mature enough to make that decision or not, the fratello are in a position of power over the girls. The girls are programed to obey, and don't really have a full choice in the matter.
HOW LONG HAVE I BEEN SAYING THAT?!!! :lol!:
I will never understand why this doesnít register with some people. This is one point you can NOT get around.

It doesn't seem to register because in the manga the girls display some semblance of free will. Also, they're too human and we tend to forget that they're just cyborgs

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 3:43

@MikhailN wrote:It doesn't seem to register because in the manga the girls display some semblance of free will. Also, they're too human and we tend to forget that they're just cyborgs
When it comes down to it, the girls are pretty much irrelevant. What really matters is the way the adults are conducting themselves.


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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by LoC978 on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 3:57

after all, who blames a child for being a child?

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 12:00

@MikhailN wrote:
@Danjo3 wrote:
@ElfenMagix wrote:
@MadHatChemist wrote:
Also, regardless of if the girls are of legal age, or if girls that age are mature enough to make that decision or not, the fratello are in a position of power over the girls. The girls are programed to obey, and don't really have a full choice in the matter.
HOW LONG HAVE I
BEEN SAYING THAT?!!! :lol!:
I will never understand why this doesnít register with some people. This is one point you can NOT get around.

It doesn't seem to register because in the manga the girls display some semblance of free will. Also, they're too human and we tend to forget that they're just cyborgs
In both my stories, I throw the question:
How Much Flesh and Bone Must Be Cut Out and Replaced before one can say that these girls are no longer human? The question of humanity still plagues them. As Henrietta stated to Fermi's assistant- "I was made into cyborg and given super strength so I can kill with my bare hands, I get shot but the pain quickly goes away, so how can I still be a normal girl?"

Seeing her cry answers her own question. As my own OC Fernando reminds his two girls (Rachel and Francesca), "No matter how much of your body is taken away and is replaced with technology, you are still human (inside), with wants and desires, likes and disilkes like any other human out there... (So dont give me crap about you being programmed to do something- you are human and you are above your programming!)"

Part of the proof lays in their mortality. The other part lays in their minds and emotions. The tiny bit that remains is on what is left of\ their bodies- it is obvious that they eat, sleep, shit, bath, and most have their cycles. Their hearts beats inside their chests, their lungs fill up with air to breathe, they are not machines but are living human beings with machine parts replacing organic systems (limbs, skeletons, nerves, etc.). So 50% - 90% of their bodies were replaced with technology... that does not take away their being... human. And it is this that Allessandro is in violation of when he is messing around with a Drug-Induced Petra.

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Robert Frazer on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 14:56

Also, regardless of if the girls are of legal age, or if girls that age are mature enough to make that decision or not, the fratello are in a position of power over the girls. The girls are programed to obey, and don't really have a full choice in the matter.

This just doesn't apply to Petrushka, though. Petrushka isn't "obeying" Alessandro by forming a relationship - she is the one who approaches him, not the other way round. Also, the conditioning scene in Vol. 8 tells you explicitly and categorically that Petrushka's love for Alessandro is nothing pre-programmed by the Agency but an entirely personal and original thought!

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Ghostfriendly on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 15:58

@Robert Frazer wrote:
Also, regardless of if the girls are of legal age, or if girls that age are mature enough to make that decision or not, the fratello are in a position of power over the girls. The girls are programed to obey, and don't really have a full choice in the matter.

This just doesn't apply to Petrushka, though. Petrushka isn't "obeying" Alessandro by forming a relationship - she is the one who approaches him, not the other way round. Also, the conditioning scene in Vol. 8 tells you explicitly and categorically that Petrushka's love for Alessandro is nothing pre-programmed by the Agency but an entirely personal and original thought!

Fair enough, it'd be harsh to deny Petra free will and responsibility entirely. I don't know that we can say that her feelings aren't dependant on the conditioning because the agency didn't specifically condition her to feel them; with all the girls the conditioning interacts with their experiences to create unforseen personal problems.

Ok, I just called love a personal problem. Thoughts on that?
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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by MikhailN on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 16:13

@Ghostfriendly wrote:
@Robert Frazer wrote:
Also, regardless of if the girls are of legal age, or if girls that age are mature enough to make that decision or not, the fratello are in a position of power over the girls. The girls are programed to obey, and don't really have a full choice in the matter.

This just doesn't apply to Petrushka, though. Petrushka isn't "obeying" Alessandro by forming a relationship - she is the one who approaches him, not the other way round. Also, the conditioning scene in Vol. 8 tells you explicitly and categorically that Petrushka's love for Alessandro is nothing pre-programmed by the Agency but an entirely personal and original thought!

Fair enough, it'd be harsh to deny Petra free will and responsibility entirely. I don't know that we can say that her feelings aren't dependant on the conditioning because the agency didn't specifically condition her to feel them; with all the girls the conditioning interacts with their experiences to create unforseen personal problems.

Ok, I just called love a personal problem. Thoughts on that?

You just stumbled on another irritating problem in this manga. Remember what Triela said a long time back during the Elsa thingy (Chapter 4 page 27)? So now's the part where your brain will start to fry: :scratch:Where does conditioning end and love start? Puzzled If you ask me we need to go ask Triela. She seems to have that sorted out...somehow

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 16:37

@MikhailN wrote:
@Ghostfriendly wrote:
@Robert Frazer wrote:
Also, regardless of if the girls are of legal age, or if girls that age are mature enough to make that decision or not, the fratello are in a position of power over the girls. The girls are programed to obey, and don't really have a full choice in the matter.

This just doesn't apply to Petrushka, though. Petrushka isn't "obeying" Alessandro by forming a relationship - she is the one who approaches him, not the other way round. Also, the conditioning scene in Vol. 8 tells you explicitly and categorically that Petrushka's love for Alessandro is nothing pre-programmed by the Agency but an entirely personal and original thought!

Fair enough, it'd be harsh to deny Petra free will and responsibility entirely. I don't know that we can say that her feelings aren't dependant on the conditioning because the agency didn't specifically condition her to feel them; with all the girls the conditioning interacts with their experiences to create unforseen personal problems.

Ok, I just called love a personal problem. Thoughts on that?

You just stumbled on another irritating problem in this manga. Remember what Triela said a long time back during the Elsa thingy (Chapter 4 page 27)? So now's the part where your brain will start to fry: :scratch:Where does conditioning end and love start? Puzzled If you ask me we need to go ask Triela. She seems to have that sorted out...somehow
MikailN, you just scratch the spot where its been itching for a very long time.
Though the Petra series (V5 & V6) are only out in Scanlation form, we may never know what the true sentence is; but it is in my belief that the med-techs are in denial to Petra's Love because they do not want to be responsible to another Elsa Incident involving Petra this time. So they are going to say what they want to say as per what ever has to be said to cover their own asses.

Furthermore- and once again- the conditioning medication pushes the loyalty factor up on the girls so they wont betray their handlers. I will dare twist it one bit further...
The guy she was having feeling for in the dance school remotely looks like 'Sandro. Put her through the cyborg process, erase her memories as best as you can, and give her a conditioning medication that will make her loyal to whom ever she hooked up with...

Dr. Belongi (I think), when experimenting with Claes by taking her out with 'Sandro and Petra, stated that there are some memories that can not be erased becuase they are in different parts of the brain. He was speaking of emotional memories. Now, go back to Petra, who was having feelings and perhaps an affair with that dance-boy back in Russia- one who remotely looks like 'Sandro. Add the conditioning medication to push her loyalties to 'Sandro, connect that memory she has of the past love, and Petra falls for 'Sandro...

...And not completely of her own free will because the conditioning medication makes it seem like it is when it is not.

Before we can ad 2 and 2 together to get some summed up value, we need to know what 2 and 2 are in the first place. Here 2 and 2 a re not numbers, but emotions, memories, a drug and something that seems like something else when it is not. What we we getting? Something that cant be answered without a heated discussion because it all plays on our human values.

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 16:41

@Robert Frazer wrote: Also, the conditioning scene in Vol. 8 tells you explicitly and categorically that Petrushka's love for Alessandro is nothing pre-programmed by the Agency but an entirely personal and original thought!
Well thereís a news flash. Where was it ever said anywhere that any of the girls have been programmed to love their handlers?

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by MikhailN on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 16:47

@Danjo3 wrote:
@Robert Frazer wrote: Also, the conditioning scene in Vol. 8 tells you explicitly and categorically that Petrushka's love for Alessandro is nothing pre-programmed by the Agency but an entirely personal and original thought!
Well thereís a news flash. Where was it ever said anywhere that any of the girls have been programmed to love their handlers?

None of the girls have been programmed to love their handlers. It's a side effect. Of course the problem is that the techies are Puzzled Petra, you love that bugger? Puzzled so we think that Petra has some sort of feeling that's independent of conditioning. Whether that's true or not isn't the most important point in that scene IMHO. The most important part is actually their sudden reference to a long dead character called Elsa. I truly hope this is Yu's idea of Foreshadowing cheers

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 16:57

If Petra is falling in love all on her own, then why is she falling for a complete and total douche bag like Sandro?

Sorry, it just needed to be said.

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 17:00

@Danjo3 wrote:Where was it ever said anywhere that any of the girls have been programmed to love their handlers?

Not programmed, per se, but Triela tells the two Section 1 agents in Volume 1 the conditioning medication makes them love their handlers (though over the years she's developed affection for Hillshire through her life experiences with him, as well) and Henrietta and Angelica back that up in Volume 8 when they tell Petrushka that they "love their handlers right away", which confuses Petra because she didn't love Alessandro "right away", but came to love him for "such and such reasons".

@Danjo3 wrote:If Petra is falling in love all on her own, then why is she falling for a complete and total douche bag like Sandro?

One (wo)man's meat is another (wo)man's poison?

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by MikhailN on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 17:05

@Danjo3 wrote:If Petra is falling in love all on her own, then why is
she falling for a complete and total douche bag like Sandro?

Love is blind. I dunno. I'm with the techies when they went Puzzled Petra, you love that trashbag? Puzzled

@Kiskaloo wrote:Not programmed, per se, but Triela tells the two Section 1 agents in Volume 1 the conditioning medication makes them love their handlers (though over the years she's developed affection for Hillshire through her life experiences with him, as well) and Henrietta and Angelica back that up in Volume 8 when they tell Petrushka that they "love their handlers right away", which confuses Petra because she didn't love Alessandro "right away", but came to love him for "such and such reasons".

NOOOOO you just put Petra's relationship on the same level as Triela's relationship. Whatever. I still think that the reference to Elsa during Petra's examination is symbolic and one day she's going to see Sandro for what he really is. Elsa had a pistol. Petra, on the other hand, has a Spectre cheers

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 17:09

@Danjo3 wrote:If Petra is falling in love all on her own, then why is she falling for a complete and total douche bag like Sandro?

Sorry, it just needed to be said.
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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 17:12

I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but the fact still remains - the girls, ALL the girls, are under the influences of mind altering drugs that makes them subservient to their handlers. Sandro takes advantage of this and Hillshire does not.

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by MikhailN on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 17:16

@ElfenMagix wrote:
@Danjo3 wrote:If Petra is falling in love all on her own, then why is she falling for a complete and total douche bag like Sandro?

Sorry, it just needed to be said.
Sometimes I wonder if people ever read my posts... NO

LOL which one? If it's the one about her falling in love because she ain't got no choice, the manga seems to suggest that she's doing it out of her own free will. Then again, her "free will" is controlled in part by the damn drugs so... Puzzled

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 17:24

@ElfenMagix wrote:Sometimes I wonder if people ever read my posts... NO

I do, but I both don't agree with them and I tend to think you are applying your own OC universe as if it was Yu's universe, as well, since you often reference how your OC's respond and act. And I don't believe what happens in OC fiction is relevant to a discussion about what is happening in the manga.


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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by MikhailN on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 17:26

@Kiskaloo wrote:
@ElfenMagix wrote:Sometimes I wonder if people ever read my posts... NO

I do, but I both don't agree with them and I tend to think you are applying your own OC universe as if it was Yu's universe, as well, since you often reference how your OC's respond and act. And I don't believe what happens in OC fiction is relevant to a discussion about what is happening in the manga.

Easy mistake to make

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by boomer_gonz on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 17:26

It's a give and take between love and hate
Even though the girl's intentions are sedate

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 17:31

@MikhailN wrote:NOOOOO you just put Petra's relationship on the same level as Triela's relationship.

And I remain firmly convinced that is why certain segments of the fanbase hate it. Triela is their princess and anyone else - be it Petra, Rico, Claes, Angelica, Beatrice or Henrietta - getting "equal billing" in that department is just flat out unacceptable to them.

@Danjo3 wrote:I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but the fact still remains - the girls, ALL the girls, are under the influences of mind altering drugs that makes them subservient to their handlers. Sandro takes advantage of this and Hillshire does not.

That we know of.

After all, if we accept that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" when it comes to believing Sandro acts inappropriately with Petrushka, then the same should apply with Hillshire and Triela. Just because we haven't seen him do so, does not mean he isn't. After all, it's possible they're sharing a bedroom (and bed) in Naples in Volume 10 since we only see one bedroom and one bed. So maybe the living room isn't the only place Triela was "watching TV"... Wink

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by MikhailN on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 17:36

@Kiskaloo wrote:After all, if we accept that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" when it comes to believing Sandro acts inappropriately with Petrushka, then the same should apply with Hillshire and Triela. Just because we haven't seen him do so, does not mean he isn't. After all, it's possible they're sharing a bedroom (and bed) in Naples in Volume 10 since we only see one bedroom and one bed. So maybe the living room isn't the only place Triela was "watching TV"... Wink

Hoo boy. And not forgetting there are mind altering drugs and alcohol with them. NO

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 17:46

@Kiskaloo wrote:After all, if we accept that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" when it comes to believing Sandro acts inappropriately with Petrushka, then the same should apply with Hillshire and Triela. Just because we haven't seen him do so, does not mean he isn't. After all, it's possible they're sharing a bedroom (and bed) in Naples in Volume 10 since we only see one bedroom and one bed. So maybe the living room isn't the only place Triela was "watching TV"... Wink
Come on now Kisk, you at least need to keep it real. You and I both know that Hillshire would never do a thing like that. Sandro on the other hand would jump at the chance.

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by hydra282 on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 18:19

It's kind of weird that Sandro makes Petra smoke and dress like a whore, but the only time I remember that he was actually interested in her was when he kissed her in his room. When he kissed her on the job, he just left her there all embarrassed, and didn't do anything else to her.
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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 18:24

@Danjo3 wrote:Come on now Kisk, you at least need to keep it real. You and I both know that Hillshire would never do a thing like that. Sandro on the other hand would jump at the chance.

I don't know that, but then I suppose that may be because I don't "like" Hillshire, so I therefore do not ascribe to him positive traits and actions because of this "like". And I also do not "hate" Sandro, so I therefore do not ascribe to him negative traits and actions because of this "hate".

What I do know is that Yu Aida created all four characters. And that their actions are a direct result of his decisions.

Yu Aida has shown Sandro to be physical with Petra. He groped her in the car when the policeman came by and he was all over her when he was in his Niccolo Baggio personna with the police inspector in Chapter 39.

Now, does that mean Yu Aida conceived of Sandro as a sexual predator and Petra would be his latest victim? Such roles strike me as rather odd, since he could have done so with any of the pre-existing fratelli - he didn't need to create a new team just for that.

Could it be that Yu Aida wanted a fratello to be sexually active, but feared the backlash that might come from the fanbase if their precious princess - Triela - rode German sausage? We've seen with Kannagi how...nuts...some of the fanbase is when it comes to fornication amongst characters.

But yet, if he wanted this, then why, seven volumes and forty chapters later, has he not shown Sandro and Petra naked in bed together? If the two really were brought in for sexual fan service, well where the hell is the sex and where the hell is the fan service? We've gotten more fan service with Triela than we have with Petra, after all.

Alessandro Ricci's professional background is as a "player" of women. He noted to Petra after the meeting in Chapter 39 that his Baggio persona was known "to be susceptible to the charms of the fair sex". I doubt this is a persona he created 10 minutes before the meeting, but instead is one he has cultivated over years to have the necessary "street cred" to be effective. Perhaps he used Rosanna like he uses Petreushka - as mighty-fine-looking eye candy meant to get the blood of the male he's deal with flowing from his "big head" to his "little head" so he isn't thinking straight and is at a disadvantage.

So since Yu Aida hasn't shown him stalking little girls and he hasn't shown him boning Petrushka, maybe he acts the way he does because that's his "professional persona" and while it may very well be creepy, it is just a persona that he puts on like a mustache, wig or really loud shirt and, at the end of the mission, takes off again.

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by hydra282 on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 18:29

Yes Indeed yupyupyup
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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 18:43

@Kiskaloo wrote:I don't know that, but then I suppose that may be because I don't "like" Hillshire...
You donít like Hillshire? Really?

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Robert Frazer on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 18:54

Danjo, Kiskaloo's comment about "liking" and "hating" H&T and A&P is something that I'd like to pick up on. Now, we know that you have a very strong attachment to H&T - that's fine, and good on you for finding something that animates you so enthusiastically. However, does it necessarily follow from that that you must conversely denigrate A&P? Does another fratello forming a successful romantic relationship impinge somehow upon H&T's character development (other than the simple fact that Triela is not in every panel of the entire comic)? Is it a competition? How would Triela 'win' it?

I just don't see the need to be so adversarial about this; it seems pretty corrosive to hate something that we're reading for enjoyment.


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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 18:57

@Danjo3 wrote:
@Kiskaloo wrote:I don't know that, but then I suppose that may be because I don't "like" Hillshire...
You donít like Hillshire? Really?

Not in the sense that I feel that I have to promote his and Triela's relationship potential - especially by denigrating the relationship potential of the other fratelli. Which is the definite and distinct sense I get from some of the fanbase (across the Net).

I agree he's a nice guy caught in a really bad way, but then so are Jose and Marco. Jean's just an asshole and I think Alessandro considers this all some sort of "game".

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 19:14

@Kiskaloo wrote:
@Danjo3 wrote:
@Kiskaloo wrote:I don't know that, but then I suppose that may be because I don't "like" Hillshire...
You donít like Hillshire? Really?
Not in the sense that I feel that I have to promote his and Triela's relationship potential - especially by denigrating the relationship potential of the other fratelli. Which is the definite and distinct sense I get from some of the fanbase (across the Net)."
That's cool.

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Guest on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 20:28

@Nachtsider wrote:Could add some stuff on 'Sandro's lust for Petra, perhaps.

what episode of GSG 2 does sandro apear?

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 20:29

Resent anime fan wrote:what episode of GSG 2 does sandro apear?

He doesn't. But Elisabetta does make a cameo.

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by MadHatChemist on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 21:05


Alessandro Ricci's professional background is as a "player" of women. He noted to Petra after the meeting in Chapter 39 that his Baggio persona was known "to be susceptible to the charms of the fair sex". I doubt this is a persona he created 10 minutes before the meeting, but instead is one he has cultivated over years to have the necessary "street cred" to be effective.

Honestly, for Alessandro, I think that sex has become so much of a "tool of the trade" that it probably doesn't mean much to him and it becomes an emotionless thing.

Funny how we see the humanity in the android and the soullessness of the actions of a "normal" human.
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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by boomer_gonz on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 21:27

Interesting...very interesting I must say.

In that context, Sandro/Petra become very likeable indeed.

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Guest on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 22:47

@Kiskaloo wrote:
Resent anime fan wrote:what episode of GSG 2 does sandro apear?

He doesn't. But Elisabetta does make a cameo.

Who is Elisabetta> sorry I dont have the manga and and GSG2 is very boring.

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 20 Jul 2009 - 22:49

Resent anime fan wrote:
@Kiskaloo wrote:
Resent anime fan wrote:what episode of GSG 2 does sandro apear?

He doesn't. But Elisabetta does make a cameo.

Who is Elisabetta> sorry I dont have the manga and and GSG2 is very boring.

The girl who becomes Petrushka.

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Guest on Sat 1 Aug 2009 - 19:10

@Kiskaloo wrote:
Resent anime fan wrote:
@Kiskaloo wrote:
Resent anime fan wrote:what episode of GSG 2 does sandro apear?

He doesn't. But Elisabetta does make a cameo.

Who is Elisabetta> sorry I dont have the manga and and GSG2 is very boring.

The girl who becomes Petrushka.

Oh I see but really does he make her dress like a whore?

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Robert Frazer on Sat 1 Aug 2009 - 19:27

Her cameo in Il Teatrino is at a time before she meets Alessandro, so it doesn't factor in - and she dresses fairly conservatively during it anyway. Here's a link to a past post with screenshots of the scene in which she appears: http://gunslinger-girl.up-with.com/the-theater-f5/gunslinger-girl-il-teatrino-discussion-t275-950.htm#44736

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by LoC978 on Sun 2 Aug 2009 - 1:56

Resent anime fan wrote:does he make her dress like a whore?
you decide:
Spoiler:








oh, also, he doesn't always dress her in revealing outfits. It varies by the mission (though they're generally pretty revealing when she's just on the SWA grounds... also, boobs):
Spoiler:

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Awinnell on Sun 2 Aug 2009 - 6:17

she is 16 ! so she's not going to be wearing Hello Kitty dresses ! and most of the outfits shown are fairly average for a girl her age !

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 2 Aug 2009 - 10:36

At least one of Sandro's "covers" (Niccolo Baggio) is as a "man with a weakness for beautiful women" so that is why he had Petra dress the way she did. She's worn more...conservative...clothes likes Lake Maggio (t-top, miniskirt, boots) and Venice (t-top, jeans and boots) and when he first took her out of the compound, she was in a t-shirt, jeans and sandals.


That being said, if Sandro was Kara's handler, as opposed to Michele?


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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 2 Aug 2009 - 13:26

I have some problems with Petra, but her dressing like a whore never really bothered me.

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Re: Alessandro Ricci

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 2 Aug 2009 - 13:37

@Danjo3 wrote:I have some problems with Petra, but her dressing like a whore never really bothered me.

She's an attractive girl (at least to me), so choosing outfits that enhance that attractiveness is not a bad thing in my eyes.

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