Rogue Cyborg

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Danjo3 on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 10:41

sasahara17 wrote:Hay Danjo3, could you point me in the right direction? The old forum is pretty big and I don't know where to look. Perhaps GameFAQs has a piccy.
I'm not positive, but I think it's in the Thoughts about unreleased volumes in the U.S. » section and I believe it was blade who provided it. It’s definitely a hassle trying to find anything there.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 10:49

Danjo, its not there, though it does have several Pia entries in it from Sintendo. (I spypered the page for Pia references.)
Any other threads to look into?

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Danjo3 on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 11:19

ElfenMagix wrote:Danjo, its not there, though it does have several Pia entries in it from Sintendo. (I spypered the page for Pia references.)
Any other threads to look into?
If it's not there, I'm at a loss. It must be buried in one of the other threads. I wouldn't even know where to start looking...

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 11:37

No Problem. One day I'll see how that old forum looks and maybe, just maybe, I can index it with one of my search engines.

How can one have a forum and not have a built-in search?!! DAMN!

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by emperor on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 2:02

How can one have a forum and not have a built-in search?!! DAMN!

Yeah...old type forum. :cyclops:

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Danjo3 on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 21:15

Since this thread seems to be mostly about Claes, has everyone noticed the HK53 t-shirt she's has on in vol.5 (pg. 117-120). Definitely a strange thing for her to be wearing.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Guest on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 21:36

Danjo3 wrote:Since this thread seems to be mostly about Claes, has everyone noticed
the HK53 t-shirt she's has on in vol.5 (pg. 117-120). Definitely a
strange thing for her to be wearing.
The question is who buys her clothes. I doubt she gets to go outside much (and none of the other cyborgs buy their own clothes). Jean is the one who got her the flower seeds, and seems to care for her for some reason or it could be one of the researchers.

Vol. 5? I can't find it (my page numbering is screwed). Which chapter is it?

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Wileama on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 23:02

It's a sleeper shirt. I've always used shit shirts for sleepers. An old air force pt shirt is the one I'm currently using. The shirt was a freebie. Came with a gun, or some promotions package sent to the agency. Jean looked at it, and tossed it at Claes figuring she could use a shirt that she wouldn't mind getting dirty.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by LoC978 on Fri 16 Nov 2007 - 3:07

volume 5, pages 119-120:

as I said in the other forum (somewhere): I love how she has a shirt that proclaims an assault carbine with its caliber (HK53, 5.56x45), and it looks like some normal company logo and/or band t-shirt... I want one.
as for it being tossed to her absentmindedly by Jean... maybe, maybe not. if you recall, Raballo's weapon choices for her were both H&K guns (MP5k and VP70M)... it's possible that he was planning on having her use an HK53 as well, and he had it ordered. Perhaps she had it before Raballo was killed, or perhaps it was in his (library) room somewhere in a corner, and she just picked it up, washed it, and wore it.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Danjo3 on Fri 16 Nov 2007 - 3:18

Wileama wrote:The shirt was a freebie. Came with a gun, or some promotions package sent to the agency. Jean looked at it, and tossed it at Claes figuring she could use a shirt that she wouldn't mind getting dirty.
Actually, that's the first thing I thought of - a freebie from a gun rep. I'm sure old Jean's got a shit load of coffee mugs and ball caps too. Claes probably doesn't like it (hating guns the way she does) but wears it because she likes him. I guess he's the closest thing she has to a handler.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Wileama on Fri 16 Nov 2007 - 10:46

That's true, I was thinking more about where the shirt came from, then the who, and when .

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Guest on Fri 16 Nov 2007 - 19:39

I think Rico uses a HK53 in vol. 1 chapter 2 (I think). Anyway, Jean getting the shirt seems like a good answer.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Wileama on Fri 16 Nov 2007 - 19:48

If you look at the top frame of Volume 1 PG 46, I looks like a G3. If not a G3 it's some other rifle. I don't think we ever see a HK53, which I why I said promotion package. The agency buys enough HK weapons. HK could could send the SWA a package saying, hey look at how awesome the 53 is, buy some!

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by LoC978 on Fri 16 Nov 2007 - 19:55

3klicks wrote:I think Rico uses a HK53 in vol. 1 chapter 2 (I think).
I can see how you would think that... but this:

is a Beretta AR70/90
Wileama wrote:If you look at the top frame of Volume 1 PG 46, I looks like a G3.
well I'll be a... yep, it's a G3 (it was the Beretta again in the anime...):

I still say it's about as likely Claes found the shirt in Raballo's old room, and there's an HK53 gathering dust in the armory.
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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Guest on Fri 16 Nov 2007 - 20:57

I was thinking about this one:


So it's a G3...

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 16 Nov 2007 - 21:02

That thing's some kind of SiG. I know a SiG when I see one.
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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Wileama on Fri 16 Nov 2007 - 21:08

yeah It definitely doesn't look like a G3, but the page LoC showed is the very next page. That is definetly the outline of a G3. So unless she switched weapons between the two panels, that gun on page 45 is a G3...

\\shrugs

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by LoC978 on Fri 16 Nov 2007 - 21:09

Nachtsider wrote:That thing's some kind of SiG. I know a SiG when I see one.
indeed. looks like a SIG 551:

first Triela's rifle, now Elsa's?
I guess Jean just wants her proficient with everything.
...
amazing, how many pictures of 550s and 552s out there are labeled 'SIG 551' ... you'd think they'd do a little research before posting...
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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Guest on Fri 16 Nov 2007 - 21:42

Wileama wrote:yeah It definitely doesn't look like a G3, but the page LoC showed is
the very next page. That is definetly the outline of a G3. So unless
she switched weapons between the two panels, that gun on page 45 is a
G3...
That was my line of reasoning, but you guys know your guns, so Yu may have just made a mistake (maybe drew the two pages with time in between).

Or, she just switched them. Simplest answer = best.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 16 Nov 2007 - 22:44

3klicks wrote:
Wileama wrote:yeah It definitely doesn't look like a G3, but the page LoC showed is
the very next page. That is definetly the outline of a G3. So unless
she switched weapons between the two panels, that gun on page 45 is a
G3...
That was my line of reasoning, but you guys know your guns, so Yu may have just made a mistake (maybe drew the two pages with time in between).

Or, she just switched them. Simplest answer = best.
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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Wileama on Mon 19 Nov 2007 - 23:52

This is a reply to posts made here

There are things you can learn out of a book. There are things you should have drilled into through action. There are some that share a middle ground. CQC tactics is closer to action then it is book. Sure there are things you should always do. However experience in the actual task is very important. I personally believe that not only was her loyalty, but more or her memory of Raballo taken away. This would include much of his training. So I think she may understand what suppose to happen in an actual battle, but without experience that doesn't help her much.

I also get the feeling she never did go active. When ever we saw her with Raballo she seemed to be training. The one time she was out in the field she got stabbed in the gut. She never seemed to go on a mission besides that. Even then that was pretty clearly a training operation.

Also in volume seven she had a chance to blow away someone trying to kill her. She didn't pull the trigger, instead she hesitated, and nearly died in the process. As I recall Petra saved her ass. Also I've said what I have to say about Claes defeating Petra earlier. I'm no fan of Petra's, at least not yet. This has been said before, and should apparently be said again. Strength/skill does not ensure victory. I don't care how much of a bad ass you are. Some sniper takes a shot at your head, the sniper wins. The situation can count for more then who is fighting.

I agree a rampaging Claes could do damage. However if she's as afraid of guns as she appears in volume 7, it's going to be limited. Yes she could certainly kill Lorenzo, and Jean without breaking a sweat, so long as she was smart about it. However her burning the place to the ground is more or less out of the picture.

I like Claes, quite a bit. I really would like to see her as a complete, and total bad ass. However I think conditioning has more or less taken that bad ass away. She could return, with the right training. Until that day Claes is pretty sweet, and innocent. 3klicks has made most of the other points I had wanted to make, and some besides.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Guest on Mon 19 Nov 2007 - 23:57

Wileama
Er... Isn't this the wrong place. It will make little sense to people if they don't know what you're replying to. (It's from the "Who would say this quote" thread)

p.s. - Yeah, I've got nothing against Claes. It's more of a hypothetical discussion about practical ability... thingy.


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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Wileama on Tue 20 Nov 2007 - 0:19

wait I swear there was a place all things Claes just a few minutes ago...

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 20 Nov 2007 - 0:20

If the other admins can move posts around, the corrections will be made later on.

With that said; The story line Claes/Rabello follows is like Angelica/Marco. Without the ages set into stone, it is hard to say how long they have been together. In Angie's case- years, I would bet pushing 5+. In Claes' case- 1 to 2 before Rabello went through burnout and did a bad thing (Bad Rabello! How Dare You Go To A Newspaper And Snitch On Us!). During this time- how many missions she went through? We only see 1- her first training mission. How many she went through? Who knows. But she underwent enough training to go through Agency missions without her handler.

As for the Gun/Bench incident at the range, Claes was waiting for Henrietta to make that first move and she was about to let her have it. But Rabello let her have it with the cane, and she shot up the place blindly. If things would have been a little calmer- things would have ended differently.

The issue here is what we dont see. Everything is spectulative at this point about Claes. But this much is for sure- Claes was trained by a master. OK, Luke Skywalker was trained by Obi Wan and Yoda and he was still a major screw up until the very end. I dont think thats the case with Claes, and I'm siding with the possibility of her being abit better than most put her out to be. Rabello trained her to be fully functional without need of his supervision or assistance because more than likely, he would being doing a Lauro- hiding in the car during the mission and hope she returns successful. The difference being that Lauro was a fuck up, Rabello was handicapped and could be a major detriment to Claes on a mission. But there was an understanding between the two, one that went beyond training.

Who knows what went on in that tent during those long fishing trips that they took?

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Guest on Tue 20 Nov 2007 - 0:30

ElfenMagix's post
Well, I don't think Claes is useless, or uncapable of participating in battle. I don't see any reason to say she is better then any of the original cyborgs, though.

ElfenMagix wrote:Who knows what went on in that tent during those long fishing trips that they took?

Embarassed Am, I reading this right? Raballo, you dirty old man...


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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 20 Nov 2007 - 0:34

Elfen's last line might strike some as being wrong on several levels. But I think this perception comes from us having the jaundiced view of humanity that is so prevalent in today's screwed-up world.
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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Guest on Tue 20 Nov 2007 - 1:07

Heh, I can't rally complain much since I talked about sex age laws, and approximations (both in the same sentence). Although, the age difference in this case is kind of extreme. You would have to reeeeeeely stratch that statement. Especially since she's, what... Puzzled just realized I don't know how old she is.


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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 20 Nov 2007 - 1:12

Claes should be somewhere between twelve and thirteen.

Oy.
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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 20 Nov 2007 - 20:21

She's definately over 10. Maybe 11 when she was cyborg'd, and between 12 - 13 when Rabello died. By Vol. 4, she's already developing to the point where she needs a bra- for her size and point of development.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Wileama on Tue 20 Nov 2007 - 22:00

ElfenMagix wrote:With that said; The story line Claes/Rabello follows is like Angelica/Marco. Without the ages set into stone, it is hard to say how long they have been together. In Angie's case- years, I would bet pushing 5+. In Claes' case- 1 to 2 before Rabello went through burnout and did a bad thing (Bad Rabello! How Dare You Go To A Newspaper And Snitch On Us!). During this time- how many missions she went through? We only see 1- her first training mission. How many she went through? Who knows. But she underwent enough training to go through Agency missions without her handler.
I think it was more like 8-10 months. There is no way we can disprove each other. There aren't any reliable time markers in the anime. Well there is one scene in episode two, where they show the changing of the seasons. Besides that though it's almost impossible to tell how much time progresses in the series. So if your right, yes they probably did go operational. If I'm right they sit more on the razors edge of going operational. They might have had one, or two missions.

ElfenMagix wrote:As for the Gun/Bench incident at the range, Claes was waiting for Henrietta to make that first move and she was about to let her have it. But Rabello let her have it with the cane, and she shot up the place blindly. If things would have been a little calmer- things would have ended differently.
What's your point? Raballo had disarmed Henrietta, not Claes. Raballo was also attacking Jose, thus he was the target of Henrietta's rage, not Claes. This doesn't show Claes as superior.

ElfenMagix wrote:The issue here is what we dont see. Everything is spectulative at this point about Claes. But this much is for sure- Claes was trained by a master. OK, Luke Skywalker was trained by Obi Wan and Yoda and he was still a major screw up until the very end.
Luke didn't have his memories of that training wiped away. That, and he did pretty well considering the man he was fighting, help destroyed the entire Jedi order.

ElfenMagix wrote:Who knows what went on in that tent during those long fishing trips that they took?
From Claes own narration of that part of the anime "At the lake we didn't talk about work at all." Maybe, but it's pretty far out there. Raballo was an elite military solider, not a hypnotist. Okay it's true Claes isn't useless. I just don't think she very useful. She is certainly no longer better then the other cyborgs. Maybe once upon a time, but no longer.. What ever. It's pretty clearly that you aren't going to change your position what ever I say. So shall we agree to disagree, or shall we keep tossing this back, and forth?

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 20 Nov 2007 - 22:10

The anime's non-linear storytelling doesn't help us any in determining the duration of Claes and Raballo's being together, and poses a whole lot of other ambiguities and unanswered questions that continue to perplex. However, this vagueness could be considered a blessing in disguise, as it allows us fanfic writers to exercise our imaginations and come up with our own interpretations.

Just for the record, though - my opinions are that Claes and Raballo went on at least one proper mission, and that nothing went on during those camping trips apart from the pair's friendship steadily growing into a father-daughter dynamic.
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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 20 Nov 2007 - 22:40

I dont mean anything sexual happened during these fishing trips. Its more like Rabello testing the limits of Claes' condictioning before and perhaps after her second rewrite.

Rabello: Claes... now look carefully at this watch.
Claes: It looks like a cheap Rolex Clone.
Rabello: Lets try this again... You're getting sleepy...
Claes: It is kinda late...
Rabello: When you're back at the compound, when all the cyborgs are asleep, you will take a magic marker and draw kitty-cat faces on all the cyborgs while they sleep. Then you will do the same to yourself and play it off that you know nothing about it...
Claes: If you want me to do that, all you have to do is ask. You dont need that hypno-mumbo jumbo that the SWA docs use on me.
Rabello: Just ask?
Claes: Yes!
Rabello: Would you draw kitty cat faces on all the cyborgs while they sleep and then draw one on yourself and pretend that you know nothing.
Claes: Definately... :twisted:
Rabello: Thats my girl...

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 20 Nov 2007 - 22:44

ElfenMagix wrote:I dont mean anything sexual happened during these fishing trips.

That I knew, Elfen.
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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by sasahara17 on Wed 21 Nov 2007 - 17:38

Actually given the discussions on Claes age and the time frame and everything, should we actually try and tray up a defeinative timeline to see where everything happens?
The way the narrative in Gunslinger Girl jumps about does confuse me sometimes as to what order certain events take place.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 21 Nov 2007 - 17:45

In Episode 3, Rico states that she has been in Section 2 for 2 years, since the age of 11; that would make her 13. Its been speculated that Rico and Henrietta came in at the same time, thus making Henrietta 2 years old as wellin cyborg terms at that time of the episodes.

Stranger, both the anime versions that I have (the English verison that I just bought and the Japanese with English Subtitles tat I down loaded) state in Episode 4 for Triela "I have gotten a teddy bear every year..." which she has 6 of. This would confuse things as in she would have been there for at least 6 years. We discussed this before, and think that not all the bears were bought every year, just a couple of them while the others were bought for doing a good job on missions.

There are other misleading items in both the Manga and the Anime as well.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Guest on Wed 21 Nov 2007 - 18:11

That's interesting. I never paid much attention to the teddy bear thing and what it implies. But, the explenation seems good.

sasahara17 wrote:Actually given the discussions on Claes age and the time frame and
everything, should we actually try and tray up a defeinative timeline
to see where everything happens?
This is going to be very hard. The order of events "on screen" I followed, but a lot of the implied things aren't fixed, and the time elapsed between the events isn't easy to gather either.

Don't really have much of an oppinion on this. I'll go and try to find some of the old time-line threads.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Wileama on Wed 21 Nov 2007 - 19:30

sasahara17 wrote:Actually given the discussions on Claes age and the time frame and everything, should we actually try and tray up a defeinative timeline to see where everything happens?
The way the narrative in Gunslinger Girl jumps about does confuse me sometimes as to what order certain events take place.

Oh man. I don't know. That sounds like a lot of work. A lot of discussion, and some very fuzzy math. I'm scared, but it's the kind of challenge I like. Well I'll put out what I can think off. See where it goes.

There is a scene in episode two. Shows the agency in summer, then winter, then summer. This scene is a transition from Henrietta's training to 'current' time of episode 1, 2. I take this to mean that Henrietta has been a cyborg for something like a 1.5-2 years. Episode three seems warm, especially when drying cloths out. So probably just a warm week in early fall. Episode four takes place during christmas. Episode 6 takes place in 'the dead of winter' to quote Jose when their at the Plaza. When Elsa dies it appears to be fallwinter by the tree's in the background. Episode 13 seems to take place in the late winter, early spring. So the events of the series seems to span something like 6 months?

Oh right Raballo, and Claes. It's raining, so maybe late fall? The rest of their time together looks like it's summer or some such. So I figure that they started not long after Henrietta, however only made it to the fall at most.

Form my opinions of their life expectance I think if Triela had been a Cybrog for Seven years she would be almost done. I could be wrong. However In volume four I think during the Kaleidoscope story, Hilshire mentions that he's buying a bear for Triela doing well on a mission. It does not appear to be Christmas. So stuffed bears happen to be his general reward.

**EDIT**
Watched an amv, realized the tree had lost their leaves. I though they had just lost their color when I wrote the post. Correction has been made.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by emperor on Thu 22 Nov 2007 - 1:22

Rabello: Would you draw kitty cat faces on all the cyborgs while they sleep and then draw one on yourself and pretend that you know nothing.
Claes: Definately... :twisted:
Rabello: Thats my girl...

- Si,capito.

- Good girl.

:lol!:

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Danjo3 on Thu 22 Nov 2007 - 2:25

Wileama wrote:Form my opinions of their life expectance I think if Triela had been a Cybrog for Seven years she would be almost done. I could be wrong. However In volume four I think during the Kaleidoscope story, Hilshire mentions that he's buying a bear for Triela doing well on a mission. It does not appear to be Christmas. So stuffed bears happen to be his general reward.
Good point Wileama, I forgot all about that. I believe he was getting it for her because she had been studying so hard.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 22 Nov 2007 - 22:04

Wileama wrote:
sasahara17 wrote:Actually given the discussions on Claes age and the time frame and everything, should we actually try and tray up a defeinative timeline to see where everything happens?
The way the narrative in Gunslinger Girl jumps about does confuse me sometimes as to what order certain events take place.

Oh man. I don't know. That sounds like a lot of work. A lot of discussion, and some very fuzzy math. I'm scared, but it's the kind of challenge I like. Well I'll put out what I can think off. See where it goes.

There is a scene in episode two. Shows the agency in summer, then winter, then summer. This scene is a transition from Henrietta's training to 'current' time of episode 1, 2. I take this to mean that Henrietta has been a cyborg for something like a 1.5-2 years. Episode three seems warm, especially when drying cloths out. So probably just a warm week in early fall. Episode four takes place during christmas. Episode 6 takes place in 'the dead of winter' to quote Jose when their at the Plaza. When Elsa dies it appears to be fallwinter by the tree's in the background. Episode 13 seems to take place in the late winter, early spring. So the events of the series seems to span something like 6 months?

Oh right Raballo, and Claes. It's raining, so maybe late fall? The rest of their time together looks like it's summer or some such. So I figure that they started not long after Henrietta, however only made it to the fall at most.

Form my opinions of their life expectance I think if Triela had been a Cybrog for Seven years she would be almost done. I could be wrong. However In volume four I think during the Kaleidoscope story, Hilshire mentions that he's buying a bear for Triela doing well on a mission. It does not appear to be Christmas. So stuffed bears happen to be his general reward.

**EDIT**
Watched an amv, realized the tree had lost their leaves. I though they had just lost their color when I wrote the post. Correction has been made.

It is in my opinion that Episode 4 (DOLL), {End of} 5 (PROMISE), 9 (D'oh! Forgot it!), 10 (High Fever) all happened at about Christmas time of the same year in over lapping missions.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 23 Nov 2007 - 6:27

I personally don't think that all the thirteen episodes of Season One take place during the same year - barring, of course, the Elsa Factor story arc and the series of events featuring Filippo Adani and the information he possessed that led to the climatic raid. The scenario's too much of a force-fit, if you ask me, and can't really be conclusively proven.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Wileama on Fri 23 Nov 2007 - 14:49

I don't see why they couldn't. Most episodes don't cover much more then a few days. Those that due tend to be flashbacks, or could run concurrently with other episodes. A lot can happen in 6-8 months. This is the thing thought. You could be right, there is no way to be sure.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 23 Nov 2007 - 18:56

The one event that I can tie everything too is the Meteor Shower that occurs in their winter. Most happen in the fall season, but this one struck me sorta in a Big Way. I think Yu Aida used it as a nitch in time, but in his universe, set it further in time by a few days.

http://amesnews.arc.nasa.gov/releases/2000/00_86AR.html
This shower happens just before Christmas (on the Winter Soltice). OK, it can only be seen in the USA, but who knows. I'm not Him, and this one fits too nicely to be ignored.

The Spring Meteor (Lyrdid) Showers happen in April- too late to see in winter; and the Fall/Winter (Geminid) showers happens in early December, which is too early to fit in the scheme of things.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Guest on Sun 25 Nov 2007 - 23:59

sasahara17 wrote:
Nachtsider wrote:Sure thing, man.

Bombs from fertilizer - very V for Vendetta, one of my favorite books
ever.

I always imagined that Raballo's death was, in truth, no 'hit-and-run
accident', and that the triggerwoman was either Elsa or Rico. But that's
another story for another day.

I love that graphic novel myself. Like that the movie was more stylish, but the novel was much more interesting.

Anyway Claes aside, Danjo3 is right in that if one of the more physically fit
cyborgs went rouge there would be a huge gun battle. But that brings the
question... reasonably, how would the SWA react? I would image that after it was proven that Cyborgs can turn on their handlers in specific circumstances that they would have come up with some form of action plan for this, even if it was only on paper.

LoC978 wrote:totally OT, but I can't help myself...

Danjo3 wrote:Going by your logic, everyone with a college degree
is a master killer waiting for a reason.

Going by your logic, everyone with a college degree is smart. I assure you,
this is not the case. The majority of people I've met with a higher education are just rich kids with zero practical skills and a love for bureaucracy.

...and then there are the ones who got an art degree, hung it up on their wall, forgot everything they learned in college, and went on to serve burgers at a fast food joint...

Ack! -Critical Hit-

Thank you very much, LoC978. That last part of your message just encompassed all my fears and nightmares into a single post :pale:
I've often envisioned myself cleaning toilets and sweeping roads after getting a law degree because I suck. Oh well, perhaps the Singapore army will whip me into shape once I finally have to do my national service. Heard plenty of good things about them from everyone who’s been in there, even bought the introductory booklet, so I'm looking forward to it.

I'm not sure how I missed this, and it's also a milion years old, and completely OT, and, and, and... Anyway, can't stop myself

I share your fears exactly. I think that practically everybody has them more or less. If you find this as any reasurrance, Philosophy graduates are far more likely to end up flipping burgers then lawyers. The good thing about a law degree can be used for other things then being a judge or something. Practically every larger company needs people to mae sure they don't do things against the law, to draft adn check contracts (make sure they don't get cheated or something), etc. And then there is always the possibility that you'll be a succesfull lawyer and then you'll be stinkin' rich.

In times like these I wonder why I didn't simply go for engineering. I'd dislike it, but at least I'd have a job practically guarenteed.

LoC978 wrote:just rich kids with zero practical skills and a love for bureaucracy.
Poland has a pretty non-bullshit system. University is free, you just have to get in. They take the candidates give them a test and then fill their empty places with the people from the top. About 10% make it the rest go dig ditches. (the dig-ditches is a figure of speach, I got told to go dig-ditches more times then I can possibly count).

This will change with time of course, but not yet.

The degeneration of schooling systems is mostly the result of wealth and capitalism. In a rich country people can get by more easily. In a country that has had capitalism for a long time University is a paid affair and thinks more about how to get money then about how to train good students.

In Canada they have the worst possible mix of political correctness and grubby Universities. Practically everybody is called to join, then they get a lousy and terribly overpriced education and get released into a market that is already oversaturated with people exactly like them. Not, to mention that you get a hell of a lot of choice. The ammount of courses that are actually compulsory is just plain ridiculous, the rest you can fill, with the type of courses you don't really even have to show up for to pass, and then the stuff that is compulsory is often boring and useless.

It's pretty bad on my nerves actually. The exams are pathetic. You study for an hour before a midterm then get 98% and some illegible comments about how good it was. And look at the irony. I'm supposed to be happy, but I feel like a complet piece of SHIT. Because I know that what I wrote was complete bull-, the type you fertilize your garden with. In Poland people don't care about your feelings, they tell you you're a pathetic piece of crap, but they're honest with what they think for god's sake, and since the University doesn't get paid anything for having you there, when they don't like you they throw you out (there's a thousand people waiting for the place you just freed up).

Fuck, another of my midnight revleries. sweat Just, bear with it. I have to get my thoughts out somewhere.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 0:20

Dont worry about it 3-klicks.
Somewhere between the words of the rants is the truth.
(that and you just answered a lot of questions about a current abusive bf an ex of mine is dating- he's in college in Canada / she is in NYC near me. I simply dont like him... you just added more gasoline to that raging fire. THANKS!)

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Guest on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 0:52

My oppinions about Canada is biased, and it may be just Ottawa that's screwed up, but then I didn't have a problem with the time I spent in the U.S. so I think that:
"Somewhere between the words of the rants is the truth."

ElfenMagix wrote:(that
and you just answered a lot of questions about a current abusive bf an
ex of mine is dating- he's in college in Canada / she is in NYC near
me. I simply dont like him... you just added more gasoline to that
raging fire. THANKS!)
Glad, I could help. Smile

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 26 Nov 2007 - 1:11

You're welcomed.
Now if you see a nuclear fireball coming from about 40°N 73°W, that would be me and my ex having our final arguement on the matter. :twisted:

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Guest on Sun 9 Dec 2007 - 22:49

Wileama wrote:I always liked Claes for it it. If her memory of Rabalo ever comes back, it's going to be a bad day. She'll probably just try for a round in between Jeans eyes.
The moment she saw Rabello alive, she was so shocked, instead of comitting suicide, she was going to let Wallez rape her mercilessly and take the pain.

To me, finding out the lot about Rabello isn't going to send her into a rage. She isn't that way. She'd be extremely upset, but no way is she going on a killing spree. It simply isn't her character.

The closest to a rogue cyborg I wrote about was when Angelica was addicted to 'new' drugs being tested on her. The drugs were tainted with large amounts of thallium poisoning, and she soon went into a mad fit because of the pain. That's not rogue as much as it is insane.

No firearm or CQC. Nothing. Zip. She is no more skilled then your average school girl off the street. Granted, she might do some damage, but it would be pretty pathetic compaired to what one of the other girls would do.
Have you seen The Borne Identity? In real life, that's how it'd go with memory. Combat skills are auto-functions, mere instinct, not information. Like driving skills: people can live years away from the steering wheel, get in, be a little rough around the edges, and the next day drive as well as anyone else.

I hadn't been on a po-go stick in 8 years. I tried getting on one, fell over after the third jump. I got up, tried again, and I jumped almost 40 times.

Just because your memory is wiped out doesn't mean you go back to 0.

@ Nachtsider's arugement of oversimplifying the glasses concept:
While it does sound oversimplified, that's almost how it is. We're not saying its the glasses that prevent her from actually turning violent: it's the mentality she had when wearing the glasses.

In vol 7, ch 33, p 18-20, Petrushka took Claes' glasses while Claes was showering. When Claes found them missing, and Petrushka being the one who had them in her possession, Claes beat the crap out of Petra to get them back.
I forgot about that.

Holy crap! Not only did she take down Petra, she grabbed, hit, and threw her down (with the punch), and took her glasses back before Petra could even react! And Petra is a second generation cyborg!

...

This means that the glasses could represent Rabello (as a memory of him), which could make her very dangerous should her glasses themselves ever be in danger.



Real prevention options would be altering conditioning, and monitoring of the Fratello. The only way for a girl to go rogue is:


  • Lose their handler
  • Have their handler tell them to go rogue
  • Have the worst handler ever


Lucas, anyone? (Evil grin)

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 10 Dec 2007 - 2:54

You know what’s always bothered me - the fact that Jean sent Claes into that boat situation in the first place. What the fuck was he thinking about? It’s like a cop dragging a girl off the street, sticking a gun in her hand and saying, “Do my job.”. He knew that what little training she had was gone. When it hit the fan, Claes was scared shitless and had not clue one as to what to do. She almost got killed. Petra could have been killed. Is it just me, or does this sound like gross negligence on Jeans part.

PS: Claes did not beat up Petra. She just knocked her down and took back her glasses. Petra was not fighting back.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Totoum on Mon 10 Dec 2007 - 6:45

Danjo3 wrote:Claes was scared shitless and had not clue one as to what to do.

I Disagree with that statement,it's not because she got scared,she knew she had to use the gun, but couldn't bring herself to do it.Because of the promise.
Looks like she'd rather die than break the promise,and I think that it's what Jean is overlooking.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 10 Dec 2007 - 14:23

This is always been my arguement about Claes.
When the doctors rewrote her for the third time to be more independant, erase Rabello, but to answer the orders of the agency- I believe that they did their best to keep what he taught her intact. This made the 'promise' into a re-write order.

Claes is more than capable and her training still intact, if you go by Episode 12: Symbiosis. Many would argue that she is scared of guns because at this point, she took a place place poker and not the gun from the terrorist that she killed. Going with military police training- If you kill your opponant- you dont take his weapon because you're not proficiantly trained on it and it might be boobey trapped.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Totoum on Mon 10 Dec 2007 - 18:53

ElfenMagix wrote: if you go by Episode 12: Symbiosis.

The thing is you can't really go by that because manga claes would never do that,she doesn't want to hurt anyone,even when she's not wearing glasses.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 10 Dec 2007 - 19:58

Totoum wrote:
ElfenMagix wrote: if you go by Episode 12: Symbiosis.

The thing is you can't really go by that because manga claes would never do that,she doesn't want to hurt anyone,even when she's not wearing glasses.

Explain what she did to Petra then?

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 10 Dec 2007 - 20:34

I've got a scan of the relevant pages from a Chinese language copy of the volume in which these events you guys mention took place, and have read the dialogue thoroughly. In the scene where 'Sandro is apologizing to Claes for Petra's behavior, Claes mentions that it is no biggie, going on to explain that she reacted to Petra not out of anger, but due to some inexplicable compulsion or reflex.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Totoum on Tue 11 Dec 2007 - 9:08

Nachtsider wrote:I've got a scan of the relevant pages from a Chinese language copy of the volume in which these events you guys mention took place, and have read the dialogue thoroughly. In the scene where 'Sandro is apologizing to Claes for Petra's behavior, Claes mentions that it is no biggie, going on to explain that she reacted to Petra not out of anger, but due to some inexplicable compulsion or reflex.

exactly,Petra even has to confort Claes a bit,from the text translation provided by Tommugunner

Claes: “I can remember vaguely…
I got these glasses from someone…
And I promised this person that I would never be mean.”

Petrushka: “Why did you attack me, then?”

Claes: “Because you just took my glasses.
I know…
I broke my promise with that…”

Petrushka: “Hey, I was out of place!
It doesn’t count, it was my fault all along.”

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