Rogue Cyborg

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 15 Oct 2007 - 13:01

Perhaps the smartest of the entire group. :twisted:

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by sasahara17 on Sat 10 Nov 2007 - 7:04

I agree, if Claes went rouge we all know by now the
SWA should kiss their asses goodbye (giving her music, what were they
thinking?). Sheís smart, cunning and knows the compound by the back of her
hand, probably better than even some of the staff in some parts. Home field advantage could possibly belong to her since she lives there twenty four seven. Even the other girls leave for missions.





But enough about four eyes... letís talk about the real danger here!

Someone who has a real reason to snap!

Someone who will be able to take the entire SWA off guard and kill them all,
handlers and cyborgs alike, before they even realized she went rogue!
Someone who would completely decimate them!




I give you the diabolical, ruthless, merciless...



Angie!




...




...




...




I fail seriously, donít I?

Okay her only chance would be to use the 'I'm so sweet and cute' card and hope she gets everybody going 'aawwwww'... then as in Nactsider's 'Bloody Valentine' whips out her gun and introduces everybody to 5.56 caliber brain surgery. Isn't that why the assassins are little girls? Ambush tatics?

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 10 Nov 2007 - 7:23

sasahara17 wrote:Isn't that why the assassins are little girls? Ambush tatics?

That, my friend, is the crux of the SWA - no one suspects a young child of being a superhuman, bulletproof killing machine. Displaying a sound knowledge of Gunslinger Girl's fundamental principles can in no way classify you as a failure - lighten up on the self-depriciation, and hold your head up high as a valued member of our community.

And thanks for the plug. I deeply appreciate it.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Danjo3 on Sat 10 Nov 2007 - 7:52

sasahara17 wrote:I agree, if Claes went rouge we all know by now the
SWA should kiss their asses goodbye (giving her music, what were they
thinking?)
I think you are WAY over estimating her. Keep in mind that since she had her memory erased, she's had no training what so ever. No firearm or CQC. Nothing. Zip. She is no more skilled then your average school girl off the street. Granted, she might do some damage, but it would be pretty pathetic compaired to what one of the other girls would do.
And this from a fellow Claes fanboy!

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by sasahara17 on Sat 10 Nov 2007 - 8:29

Nachtsider wrote:
sasahara17 wrote:Isn't that why the assassins are little girls? Ambush tatics?

That, my friend, is the crux of the SWA - no one suspects a young child of being a superhuman, bulletproof killing machine. Displaying a sound knowledge of Gunslinger Girl's fundamental principles can in no way classify you as a failure - lighten up on the self-depriciation, and hold your head up high as a valued member of our community.

And thanks for the plug. I deeply appreciate it.




Don't worry Nachtsider, you'll find I poke fun at myself
alot, It's part of my sense of humour. Most of the time I tend to poke fun at
my ineptness (right there, see!) out of habit from darker days gone by (I used
to think I was the scum of the earth, now I only say I am).

I can't seem get rid of it not after almost a decade of berating myself, so I
might as well try and make it funny while I still have it. I'm confident it'll
go away sometime though... it had better, before I graduate, nobody wants to
hire a lawyer to says he's an idiot every five seconds. Will be bad for biz.
There gores my ability to support my anime obsession.

Anyway back on topic, admittedly I give Claes too much credit, but I tend to
see her as a very efficient and cunning person. As discussed earlier, she wouldnít
just flip out like Elsa and kill Lauro. No...

Premeditated murders. Lots of them.

Like Nachtsider said, ambush tactics. Claes wouldnít be stupid enough to attack
the entire compound like Rambo. She'd hit the place like Kira/Lighto-kun from
Death Note. She has a while library of suspense and triller novels to draw
ideas from (Actually, it's rather scary how many ideas get thrown around in the
movies. Thatís how I found out about using prepaid. Itís out now, but imagine if
it was a new thing?) Lots of planning and risks, moment of truth then...

Standing over Lorenzo's dead body, Claes glasses NOT on her face, smiles,
Raballo avenged.

"Just as Planned."

She could make bombs using her garden fertiliser and hide them all over the
place. God that would be a nightmare since she is the person most familiar with
the dorms.

Triela would be tending to her teddy bears, while Claes had 'excused herself'
from the room and picks one up... no more Triela. Hernietta's violin is hollow inside right? Hell, Claes knows where the
shooting range is. She could pop in there, intentionally get reprimanded then
leave. After leaving a present of course... next to where the flammable stuff is kept.

Who ever said she had to pick up an MP-5 and try to gun everyone down?

I'm getting carried away aren't I?

... who did kill Raballo anyway? I was of the opinion Section One or even
Section Two did it to silence him. If Claes ever remembered and found out, Elsa
would have nothing on her.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 10 Nov 2007 - 8:38

Sure thing, man.

Bombs from fertilizer - very V for Vendetta, one of my favorite books ever.

I always imagined that Raballo's death was, in truth, no 'hit-and-run accident', and that the triggerwoman was either Elsa or Rico. But that's another story for another day.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Danjo3 on Sat 10 Nov 2007 - 11:48

I still think youíre mistaken sasahara17. Claes is a very smart girl, but itís all book smart. Going by your logic, everyone with a college degree is a master killer waiting for a reason. If you look at her performance under fire in vol.7, you can see sheís totally lost when it come to killing skills. Smart does not a calculated killer make. You also keep calling her cunning - where do you get that? As I said before, sheís smart, but cunning? I really think you are putting her into the same category as the other girls. Elsa is cunning. Triela is cunning. Not to mention that they, and all the others, are ruthless killing machines. Iím sorry, but I just donít think Claes has it in her - no matter how mad she was. Knowing her, escaping into the wild would be more her style.

I can never see Claes wigging out (I think she's to smart for that) but if she did, hereís what I think would happen:

She would wait till Triela left the room, grab her gun, and then run through the complex firing wildly at what ever moved (and very rarely hitting anything). Once everyone realized what was happening, our poor Claes (and it pains me to say this) would go down in a hail of gun fire from quite a few Agents, Handlers and their overly protective Cyborgs. Whatís more, that would probably be all right with her, knowing before she even started that thatís how it would end. (If Triela were close enough, she would probably try to end it physically, but thatís only if she happened to be in the neighborhood) Claes might score a few hits and maybe even a lucky kill, but thatís about it. The kids who go on school shooting sprees would do better then Claes would, simply due to the fact that all of Claesí targets will be fighting back.

If, however, it were Elsa or Triela, well Iíd rather not think about itÖ

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Sintendo on Sat 10 Nov 2007 - 12:39

Like I said... poison tea party...

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by LoC978 on Sat 10 Nov 2007 - 12:46

totally OT, but I can't help myself...
Danjo3 wrote:Going by your logic, everyone with a college degree is a master killer waiting for a reason.
Going by your logic, everyone with a college degree is smart. I assure you, this is not the case. The majority of people I've met with a higher education are just rich kids with zero practical skills and a love for bureaucracy.
...and then there are the ones who got an art degree, hung it up on their wall, forgot everything they learned in college, and went on to serve burgers at a fast food joint...

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by sasahara17 on Sat 10 Nov 2007 - 18:41

Nachtsider wrote:Sure thing, man.

Bombs from fertilizer - very V for Vendetta, one of my favorite books
ever.

I always imagined that Raballo's death was, in truth, no 'hit-and-run
accident', and that the triggerwoman was either Elsa or Rico. But that's
another story for another day.

I love that graphic novel myself. Like that the movie was more stylish, but the novel was much more interesting.

Anyway Claes aside, Danjo3 is right in that if one of the more physically fit
cyborgs went rouge there would be a huge gun battle. But that brings the
question... reasonably, how would the SWA react? I would image that after it was proven that Cyborgs can turn on their handlers in specific circumstances that they would have come up with some form of action plan for this, even if it was only on paper.

LoC978 wrote:totally OT, but I can't help myself...

Danjo3 wrote:Going by your logic, everyone with a college degree
is a master killer waiting for a reason.

Going by your logic, everyone with a college degree is smart. I assure you,
this is not the case. The majority of people I've met with a higher education are just rich kids with zero practical skills and a love for bureaucracy.

...and then there are the ones who got an art degree, hung it up on their wall, forgot everything they learned in college, and went on to serve burgers at a fast food joint...

Ack! -Critical Hit-

Thank you very much, LoC978. That last part of your message just encompassed all my fears and nightmares into a single post :pale:
I've often envisioned myself cleaning toilets and sweeping roads after getting a law degree because I suck. Oh well, perhaps the Singapore army will whip me into shape once I finally have to do my national service. Heard plenty of good things about them from everyone whoís been in there, even bought the introductory booklet, so I'm looking forward to it.
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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 10 Nov 2007 - 18:53

A kindred spirit. Awesome.

I can't help but wonder why moviemakers can't craft faithful renditions of Alan Moore's books. They lose absolutely nothing by doing so, and both Moore and fans of his work - like myself - will be pleased. All the adaptations thus far have been disappointing - I really hope they won't screw up with 2009's Watchmen.

National Service! Although I'm not Singaporean, I once did a brief stint with the SAF - a month-long survival camp thingus in which I learnt some basic survival tactics and marksmanship, among other useful skills. Never, ever scored a bulls-eye, but put all my shots in the 'Diameter 8' ring of an International Rifle Target Silhouette at fifty yards. And your contacts are right about the program being good. If I were a citizen of Singapore, I wouldn't even wait for my draft papers, but enlist as soon as I were able.

The SAR-21 is a *sweet* weapon, despite what its detractors may say. I even armed my original Gunslinger Girl character Liesel - the first-ever OC in Gunslinger Girl fanfiction - with one.
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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 10 Nov 2007 - 21:57

Sintendo wrote:Like I said... poison tea party...
And if she totally went berzerk... wearing war paint from the blood of her first victims...

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Sintendo on Sun 11 Nov 2007 - 5:15

ElfenMagix wrote:
Sintendo wrote:Like I said... poison tea party...
And if she totally went berzerk... wearing war paint from the blood of her first victims...

And, dare I say it..., SERVE DAY OLD DARJEELING TEA! MWAHAHAHAHAHA!
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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 11 Nov 2007 - 22:04

Sintendo wrote:
ElfenMagix wrote:
Sintendo wrote:Like I said... poison tea party...
And if she totally went berzerk... wearing war paint from the blood of her first victims...

And, dare I say it..., SERVE DAY OLD DARJEELING TEA! MWAHAHAHAHAHA!
:lol!: 👍 :lol!: 👍 :lol!: 👍 :lol!: 👍 :lol!: 👍

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Wileama on Mon 12 Nov 2007 - 7:06

I think you might want to give sasahara17 a break. I know it took me a while to get my hands on volume 7. I still haven't found an english version.

It's hard to remember some times that Claes isn't the same girl Raballo trained. I know I tend to forget that all the time. I see Claes reading her books, and then I put that right next to the firing range bad ass.

It's true she's probably no better then any adult at this point. However Raballo did seem to be training her quite well. That and it's Claes nature to be that deep thinking. She isn't cunning now, because she doesn't fight. However if she had to start fighting. You would see that through, methodical attacks, and plans.

Which could hurt her at times as much as help. Some times actions are more important then ideas. At this point though it is mute. Claes probably isn't any better at combat then you average adult. If she did go on missions though she would be that cunning hell hound you see so often in Fan Fiction.

That girl, that girl would calmly kill those she thought responsible for the death of Raballo. It might not change anything, but the kind of attachment Claes has, even now. It would be hard to ignore that urge for revenge. Hell she would probably do the deed, and then sit in a corner with a book.

That girl doesn't exist though. Which can be hard to remember. So it would be blind fire into crowds. Or at the very least a couple rounds in the chest, of one target from point blank. Even that though is a bit far out for Claes.

Anyway quick thoughts. Raballo is stated to have died in a hit, and run. It is very important that this is how it appears evidence wise. Other handlers probably aren't aware, or at least certain, what happened to Raballo. So the closest you can come is having a girl in the back seat. Most likely it was Jean, or who ever was keeping taps on Raballo.

Responses to rogue cyborgs in the compound must exist, if the security is worth a damn. This is especially true after Elsa. I would like to think that it's moved beyond paper. How far though is up in the air. As to what it is:
  • Armory full of big guns
  • Keep girls out of said armory
  • base security guards

You keep it under the pretext that it's for a Pandia attack. Which isn't a real lie. It just also happens that it would be effective for a rampaging cyborg as well. Anything after that I imagine is just going to be be on the fly.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 12 Nov 2007 - 7:16

My hypothesis as to how the Agency might deal with a rogue cyborg is akin to what H.G. Wells' Dr. Moreau did to keep his animal-human hybrids in check - implant a device in the subjects that would induce severe and incapacitating pain at the push of a remote controller-mounted button. Perhaps it might even be a gadget that disables the girls' cyber implants upon triggering, and leaves them powerless for as long as need be.
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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 12 Nov 2007 - 11:20

The thing with Claes you have to remember, "When you your glasses on, you are to be 'Nice Claes. When you have the glasses off, you are to be Killer Claes. This is not a cyborg rewrittable order, this is a promise from one human to another.' (In the manga/anime 'Vegatable Garden/The Promise')

In Vol 7- Claes has her glasses on, which as per the promise, messed with her ability to fight back properly. Now I think Reballo's promise became a rewrite order when they wrote her into accepting other staff to be her 'handler', thus the glasses influences her more than expected.

In the Anime #12 (Symbiosis), Claes took off the glasses and went off on the people and things about the place (killing 2 guards and knocking out the place's electrical out). Not bad for a girl without a gun.

I'm sure that in any given situation- Claes being a rogue cyborg- she would have the glasses off. And then... Oh... Boy!!!

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 12 Nov 2007 - 12:04

I think putting it down to 'glasses on' and 'glasses off' is oversimplifying the issue.
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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by LoC978 on Mon 12 Nov 2007 - 12:29

ElfenMagix wrote: "When you your glasses on, you are to be 'Nice Claes. When you have the glasses off, you are to be Killer Claes. This is not a cyborg rewrittable order, this is a promise from one human to another.'
I can see how it could be construed to mean that... but that's not even a close paraphrasing of this:

Claes' situation isn't so clear-cut, black-and-white as what you describe, Elfen... very few things are...
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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 12 Nov 2007 - 12:36

I feel my friend Deathra said it best with this gem.
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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 12 Nov 2007 - 23:04

Its worded differently on the anime.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by LoC978 on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 0:02

ElfenMagix wrote:Its worded differently on the anime.
much. here it is:

funimation english dub:
R: Also I wanted you to have your old glasses back

C: Why'd you keep these?

R: I've tried to turn you into a one-man army, a killing machine... but lately I've felt guilty as hell doing it.
Always remember to think clearly before pulling the trigger. No matter what the agency orders you to do, you mustn't use your killing abilities outside of work. I want you to be gentle, Claes, when you put those glasses on.
Now don't think of this as an order. It's a heart to heart promise. Understand?

C: I... do.

funimation subtitle translation:
Those are your old glasses.

Why did you keep these?

I've tried turning you into someone stronger, but lately, I feel uneasy whenever I look at you.
One must think clearly when pulling a trigger. Regardless of what the agency orders, you mustn't use your abilities outside of work. I want you to be the gentle Claes whenever you put those on.
That's not a changeable order, it's a warmhearted promise. Understand?

I do.

fansub by The Triad (I assume this is what you were paraphrasing, due to the word rewritten):
R: The other are the glasses you used to wear.

C: Why are you giving me these?

R: I tried to raise you into an independant person. But lately when I look at you, I get worried.
Whenever you pull the trigger, you have to think. Regardless of what the Corporation orders you to do, you can only use your strengths during operations. When you wear those glasses, I want you to be the calm Claes.
This is not an order that can be rewritten. This is a warmhearted promise. Do You understand?

C: Yes.


...in every case, while Raballo does tell her he wants her to be 'calm' or 'gentle' Claes when she puts her glasses on... he first tells her that she must only use violence while on the job, and that she must think before pulling the trigger...
The promise is a complicated one, to be sure. The glasses are only there as a reminder of it.
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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by LoC978 on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 1:35

just realized we (mostly me, really) were spamming the ever-loving shit out of a legit topic.
here's the Pastafarian convo:

http://gunslinger-girl.up-with.com/oh-god-there-she-goes-again-f5/do-not-doubt-his-noodliness1one-t171.htm

as you were.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Wileama on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 4:18

But they always get off topic, and creating a new thread mess with the flow...

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by sasahara17 on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 5:03

Ahh the greatest mystery of Gunsliger Girl, Claes Glasses.

Personally, I've only read up until the scanlated Vol 6, so I'm not as well
learned as everybody else in this discussion. However I find Loc's argument themost compelling so far.

Claes bond with Raballo seems have survived her 're-formatting'
'relatively intact' as evidenced by the faint memories she cannot seem to grasp (fishing-Vol 4) and the fact she remembers a father figure (Vol 1). She may not remember him, but surely she remembers that promise at least. As long as she has those glasses, she's as harmless as a domesticated house pet.

Wait, my tutor was attacked by his mum's chi-hua-hua today and had bandages on his face. Bad example.



Anyway, back on topic. Wileama and Nachtsider seem to have good ideas in
shutting down a rouge quickly. In fact, with Nacht's 'remote controlled off
switch', I wonder if it's even possible for a cyborg to successfully go rouge
anymore. The rogue will have to act very quickly if (s)he wants to wipe out the SWA, one push of a button and checkmate.

Any opinions?
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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 5:07

Once again, I think the whole 'glasses on, glasses off' thing is an oversimplification. While the glasses are a physical reminder of Claes' promise to Raballo, there's no reason why she can't adhere to it even if they are somehow lost.
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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by sasahara17 on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 5:50

I think I should elaborate;

I was thinking more along the lines of that the glasses were a physical manifestation
of her promise as opposed to just a reminder. While Claes would still be
affected by it without her glasses, she is even more so because of what those glasses
mean to her.

In short the glasses while not the promise itself, as a manifestation of it. As
such while she has a measure of discretion without them (can be nasty or nice),
Claes absolutely cannot be aggressive with the glasses on, her psyche demands
it because of the meaning she has attached to them.

I'm really into this symbolism stuff (names represent something, colours represent
something, animals represent something, certain stuff only happens at certain
times of the day, etc...) so I may be just reading too much into a single pair
of oval glasses, but I love thinking material objects have much more behind
them than at first glance. So my stance is somewhere in the middle. Glasses are
a big factor, but there is a heck of a lot of reasons to make it that way.



Nacht did raise an interesting point... what happens if the all important
glasses went missing? Claes would go ballistic looking for them. And what if
despite her best efforts, they stayed missing? Oh dear...



We should really move this into another thread. I bet we could go for hours
just debating it.
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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Wileama on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 6:09

I don't mean to be condescending. I think Nachtsiders idea has potential. However after glancing over what I've written I realize it could be taken that way. That's why I'm saying this up front. I simply don't feel like editing it to be more polite. Why? 1) time 2) lazyness

You know I've seen various films where nuclear missiles are stopped by self destruction. That's stupid. I'm not giving anyone, especially my enemies, the chance of stopping an armed missile. I mean America intelligence was reading Japanese codes before, and during World War Two. Now transition lets take this situation, and move it to World War Three. We see the missile launch, freak the fuck out launch our own. Some guy rushes in saying 'look we have these Japanese self-destruct codes from reading their mail'. We breath a sigh of relief as we destroy their missiles in mid-air, as our missiles obliterate their country.

You fire an armed nuclear missile you better god damn mean it. You build a super human child cyborg for assassination you better god damn do it right. Why on earth would you build a weakness in, is this Metal Gear Solid? Sure you enemy probably won't render them useless by electronic warfare, but why give them the chance?

**edit**
Oh right glasses. Totally forgot that side of my post. There is a point in volume seven when a character, Petra she's introduced in volume six, Puts on Claes glasses. Claes comes out of her shower, and does in fact go ballistic. I'm not sure what she says in the following pages, I think those pages would give us a lot of the insight we are looking for. I don't know how much the glasses actually prevent her from being violent. I think they serve some role in the regard. That isn't to say that she can't do jack squat wearing them, just more likely that she'll use minimal force, or be more hesitant. I also believe that she took them off, for the most (90%) part as a matter of practicality.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by sasahara17 on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 6:21

Wileama wrote:I don't mean to be condescending. I think Nachtsiders idea has potential. However after glancing over what I've written I realize it could be taken that way. That's why I'm saying this up front. I simply don't feel like editing it to be more polite. Why? 1) time 2) lazyness

You know I've seen various films where nuclear missiles are stopped by self destruction. That's stupid. I'm not giving anyone, especially my enemies, the chance of stopping an armed missile. I mean America intelligence was reading Japanese codes before, and during World War Two. Now transition lets take this situation, and move it to World War Three. We see the missile launch, freak the fuck out launch our own. Some guy rushes in saying 'look we have these Japanese self-destruct codes from reading their mail'. We breath a sigh of relief as we destroy their missiles in mid-air, as our missiles obliterate their country.

You fire an armed nuclear missile you better god damn mean it. You build a super human child cyborg for assassination you better god damn do it right. Why on earth would you build a weakness in, is this Metal Gear Solid? Sure you enemy probably won't render them useless by electronic warfare, but why give them the chance?

Good point.
If they came up with a system like that, they would have to develop a rather extensive failsafe system to make sure that (1) their enemies don't find out about it, (2) if it is found out, they can't use it. The resources needed to create such a system would be quite expensive I would imagine (R&D, programming, testing etc...), so perhaps perevention isn't the best cure here or they would have to make it a long term investment. For now, an armory of grenade launchers and heavy weapons would be their best bet in dealing with a rouge.
It'll be pretty damn tragic if Henrietta charges a Padania blockade and someone behind the said blockade simply just flicks a switch... nuke the hell out of poor Henrietta indeed.

I'd better stop posting here for now, I'm beginning to spam the heck out of a single thread, and I am well aware how annoying it can be.
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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by emperor on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 6:56

Oh right glasses. Totally forgot that side of my post. There is a point in volume seven when a character, Petra she's introduced in volume six, Puts on Claes glasses. Claes comes out of her shower, and does in fact go ballistic. I'm not sure what she says in the following pages, I think those pages would give us a lot of the insight we are looking for. I don't know how much the glasses actually prevent her from being violent

I know it.

Claes say to Sandro in his office that she don't know why she attacked Petra but she feel that eye-glasses was very important to her with no reason.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Wileama on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 6:57

sasahara17 wrote:Good point.
If they came up with a system like that, they would have to develop a rather extensive failsafe system to make sure that (1) their enemies don't find out about it, (2) if it is found out, they can't use it. The resources needed to create such a system would be quite expensive I would imagine (R&D, programming, testing etc...), so perhaps perevention isn't the best cure here or they would have to make it a long term investment. For now, an armory of grenade launchers and heavy weapons would be their best bet in dealing with a rouge.
It'll be pretty damn tragic if Henrietta charges a Padania blockade and someone behind the said blockade simply just flicks a switch... nuke the hell out of poor Henrietta indeed.

I'd better stop posting here for now, I'm beginning to spam the heck out of a single thread, and I am well aware how annoying it can be.
I don't think your post counts as spam. Thus I see no need for you to stop posting.

That being said, issues 1, and 2 really aren't that big. The program is so far in the dark it'll be lucky to come to light 100 years after the last mission. The Pandia only knows what it can see. Bullets don't kill them, so their bullet proof. That kind of thing. The only way their specs are going to leak is 1) A handler uses this in public 2) the Pandia has a spy working in Section 2. As for the coding of the signal. The military has to worry about this kind of thing with IFF, and the like. So they can just second hand that tech. I think the actual idea would be expensive, especially when compared to the scenario. This is only going to be useful on a rogue GSG. Thats rare enough, that I don't think you get enough of a return on your dollar. I think prevention is the way to go. It's just having a girl curl up in pain after shooting someone isn't prevention.

Real prevention options would be altering conditioning, and monitoring of the Fratello. The only way for a girl to go rogue is:
  • Lose their handler
  • Have their handler tell them to go rogue
  • Have the worst handler ever
So Claes is the only one that falls into the first category, and she's watched pretty closesly. If you have a handler go rogue, you've done some really shitty hiring. There has been one rogue cyborg due to a shitty handler. That should be enough of a wake up call to monitor the mental health of the girl, and relationship she has with her handler. You'll get good bang out of your buck by this kind of prevention.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 7:04

While we're on the subject of rebel handlers and cyborgs, does anyone know why Ernest and Pia went rogue?
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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Wileama on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 7:10

Are Ernest and Pia OCs? Or did you just reference something else?

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by emperor on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 7:17

They are exist in PS2 gsg game.

Good question,Natch.

Wait for someone answer.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 7:24

Wileama, Ernest and Pia are official characters. They haven't appeared in the anime or manga as of yet - bar a very, very brief and vague cameo by Pia - but star in the Gunslinger Girl PlayStation game (as Emperor said), whose story I have absolutely no clue about, apart from the fact that this fratello team supposedly went rogue and must be recovered dead or alive.

I really, really wish someone could fill me in.
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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by sasahara17 on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 9:11

I can keep posting? Sweet.



Okay, now this is a new one, and it's canon too. Earnest and Pia, eh? Anyone
got any details because this is the first I've ever heard of them.

A rouge handler, that is a new one. Must be why they installed that failsafe in
Petrushka in Vol. 6 (Assesandro asks if she'd follow him or the organisation,
she replies itís entirely situational).

But technically, would Pia be rouge? She's only doing what he handler is
telling her to do so in that case isn't her a normal cyborg? Rouge implies all
control over her has been lost, but Pia is technically still carrying out her functions
normally.
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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by LoC978 on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 9:23

I think we'll have to wait until Sintendo gets around to reading and answering this one... not sure if anyone else here has played the game... he went over the story once in the other forum, but I can't find the thread... damn thing needs a search function...

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 18:44

sasahara17 wrote:Nacht did raise an interesting point... what happens if the all important
glasses went missing? Claes would go ballistic looking for them. And what if
despite her best efforts, they stayed missing? Oh dear...
In vol 7, ch 33, p 18-20, Petrushka took Claes' glasses while Claes was showering. When Claes found them missing, and Petrushka being the one who had them in her possession, Claes beat the crap out of Petra to get them back.

http://206.71.145.165/GsG/v7ch33/0018.jpg
http://206.71.145.165/GsG/v7ch33/0019.jpg
http://206.71.145.165/GsG/v7ch33/0020.jpg

So Claes is no lightweight in combat skills, considering that Petra should be the one who is pre-programmed with fighting skills more than Claes who had to learn them from Rabello, and people say that she learned very little due to the short amount of time they have had together.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 18:57

sasahara17 wrote:A rouge handler, that is a new one. Must be why they installed that failsafe in
Petrushka in Vol. 6 (Assesandro asks if she'd follow him or the organisation,
she replies itís entirely situational).

But technically, would Pia be rouge? She's only doing what he handler is
telling her to do so in that case isn't her a normal cyborg? Rouge implies all
control over her has been lost, but Pia is technically still carrying out her functions
normally.

The Type 1 Cyborgs (Henrietta, Rico, Triela, Angelica, Claes, Pia, Beatrice) dont have this fail safe. They are absolute to their handlers. Yes, in this Case, Ernesto is the Rogue one and Pia is only going about what she was programmed to do. The Type 2 Cyborgs (Petrushka, unmentioned others in the manga vol 9, and certain characters in the lore of fanfictdom- like my Rachel), have the failsafe. But there are exceptions to the rules, and there are in both these categories. For my Fanfict- Rachel is the exception to the failsafe, for her and Fernando are actually family, and that over rides the failsafe- she is more of a Type 1 in that reguard than a Type 2. Claes is the exception in the Type 1s for the rewrite done to her to have her more flexiable to the agency's needs and being able to hook up to which ever handler she meets up with (this could be bad if Ernesto finds this out and tries to take advantage of it).

Now why did Ernest went Rogue? Dont know. Wish I had the game to play it and find out.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by LoC978 on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 18:58

One could argue that Petra was taken off guard and was still trying to wrap her head around the fact that a comrade was attacking her... but I happen to agree that Claes' hand-to-hand skills, while probably somewhat rusty, are still formidable. She probably underwent several months of Krav Maga training, and, conditioning or no, that muscle memory stayed with her.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 19:08

LoC978 wrote:One could argue that Petra was taken off guard and was still trying to wrap her head around the fact that a comrade was attacking her... but I happen to agree that Claes' hand-to-hand skills, while probably somewhat rusty, are still formidable. She probably underwent several months of Krav Maga training, and, conditioning or no, that muscle memory stayed with her.
If Claes can take on a Type 2 Cyborg like Petra easily, WTF happened at the boat later in that series?!!
Only difference is the glasses, and the manifestation of the promise according to whether or not she was wearing them. If she hadn't worn the glasses when she was attacked on the boat- it would have been a totally different outcome. (Or so I believe.)

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by LoC978 on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 19:20

ElfenMagix wrote:If Claes can take on a Type 2 Cyborg like Petra easily, WTF happened at the boat later in that series?!!
Only difference is the glasses, and the manifestation of the promise according to whether or not she was wearing them. If she hadn't worn the glasses when she was attacked on the boat- it would have been a totally different outcome. (Or so I believe.)
I believe it was the presence of firearms that got her on the boat. She's totally unused to them now, and they bring up vague, unpleasant memories (thus distracting her).
She was still capable of total hand-to-hand badassery, but when she pulled her pistol, (for whatever reason; I'm not completely discounting the glasses theory, I just think the uncomfortable with firearms theory is more plausible) she froze up.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Wileama on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 19:24

...

I've seen the screens to both incidents. There are two key differences between both situations as far as I can tell.
  • Surprise
  • Attitude
When Claes comes out of the shower she doesn't miss a beat. She attacks, like a rabid dog. Perta, her allie, is completely, and totally caught off guard. Petra brain is still processing the fact that Claes just threw a really hard punch at her, while Claes is pressing the attack. Thus she's distracted, and not fighting as well. Giving the very aggressive Claes the advantage she needs.

Now on the boat Claes is hesitant. She doesn't get that surprise she had over Petra. In fact she's the one who gets surprised. She doesn't have that same aggressive attitude from before. Not to mention with Petra it was a fist fight, not a gun battle. Claes seems to be hesitant around guns now. These are very different fights, the circumstances are completely different. Which makes all the difference in the world.

**Edit**
Oh, well looks like LoC beat me to the punch...


Last edited by on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 19:40; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 19:32

Interestingly, the page in which Claes and Alessandro are talking over the incident has 'Sandro apologizing to Claes for Petra's behavior, and Claes responds by saying everything is cool, going on to mention that she did not react to Petra out of anger, but out of 'an inexplicable compulsion or reflex'.
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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Wileama on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 20:21

Interesting. Do you think that's because of the subconscious importance of them? Or some weird residual of the conditioning when Raballo taught her?

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 20:22

I think it's a mixture of the two.
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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 13 Nov 2007 - 20:27

I would have to agree in it being a mixture of thhe two.
I think in Claes' rewrite after Rabello's death, the doctors tried to keep the lessons he taught her intact while changing the handler priority routines in her. Thus- the promise now becomes a rewrite order.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Danjo3 on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 5:02

sasahara17 wrote:Okay, now this is a new one, and it's canon too. Earnest and Pia, eh? Anyone
got any details because this is the first I've ever heard of them.
In the old forum, one of our translators posted some dialog from the game. If I remember correctly, it was Pia's death scene (dying in Earnest's arms). Very moving.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by sasahara17 on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 7:43

Hay Danjo3, could you point me in the right direction? The old forum is pretty big and I don't know where to look. Perhaps GameFAQs has a piccy.
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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by LoC978 on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 9:49

sasahara17 wrote:The old forum is pretty big
...that's kinda the issue... if Danjo wants to try...
anyway, what I mean is: the old forum is so big, and we got off-topic so often, it's next to impossible to track down most of our old conversations. I actually spent about an hour looking for the conversation where Sintendo posted details about the games after playing them. No luck...

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Danjo3 on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 10:41

sasahara17 wrote:Hay Danjo3, could you point me in the right direction? The old forum is pretty big and I don't know where to look. Perhaps GameFAQs has a piccy.
I'm not positive, but I think it's in the Thoughts about unreleased volumes in the U.S. Ľ section and I believe it was blade who provided it. Itís definitely a hassle trying to find anything there.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 10:49

Danjo, its not there, though it does have several Pia entries in it from Sintendo. (I spypered the page for Pia references.)
Any other threads to look into?

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Danjo3 on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 11:19

ElfenMagix wrote:Danjo, its not there, though it does have several Pia entries in it from Sintendo. (I spypered the page for Pia references.)
Any other threads to look into?
If it's not there, I'm at a loss. It must be buried in one of the other threads. I wouldn't even know where to start looking...

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 14 Nov 2007 - 11:37

No Problem. One day I'll see how that old forum looks and maybe, just maybe, I can index it with one of my search engines.

How can one have a forum and not have a built-in search?!! DAMN!

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by emperor on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 2:02

How can one have a forum and not have a built-in search?!! DAMN!

Yeah...old type forum. :cyclops:

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Danjo3 on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 21:15

Since this thread seems to be mostly about Claes, has everyone noticed the HK53 t-shirt she's has on in vol.5 (pg. 117-120). Definitely a strange thing for her to be wearing.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Guest on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 21:36

Danjo3 wrote:Since this thread seems to be mostly about Claes, has everyone noticed
the HK53 t-shirt she's has on in vol.5 (pg. 117-120). Definitely a
strange thing for her to be wearing.
The question is who buys her clothes. I doubt she gets to go outside much (and none of the other cyborgs buy their own clothes). Jean is the one who got her the flower seeds, and seems to care for her for some reason or it could be one of the researchers.

Vol. 5? I can't find it (my page numbering is screwed). Which chapter is it?

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by Wileama on Thu 15 Nov 2007 - 23:02

It's a sleeper shirt. I've always used shit shirts for sleepers. An old air force pt shirt is the one I'm currently using. The shirt was a freebie. Came with a gun, or some promotions package sent to the agency. Jean looked at it, and tossed it at Claes figuring she could use a shirt that she wouldn't mind getting dirty.

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Re: Rogue Cyborg

Post by LoC978 on Fri 16 Nov 2007 - 3:07

volume 5, pages 119-120:

as I said in the other forum (somewhere): I love how she has a shirt that proclaims an assault carbine with its caliber (HK53, 5.56x45), and it looks like some normal company logo and/or band t-shirt... I want one.
as for it being tossed to her absentmindedly by Jean... maybe, maybe not. if you recall, Raballo's weapon choices for her were both H&K guns (MP5k and VP70M)... it's possible that he was planning on having her use an HK53 as well, and he had it ordered. Perhaps she had it before Raballo was killed, or perhaps it was in his (library) room somewhere in a corner, and she just picked it up, washed it, and wore it.
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Re: Rogue Cyborg

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