If you're a policy maker of SWA......

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Re: If you're a policy maker of SWA......

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 7 Oct 2007 - 20:47

Danjo3 wrote:
The Italian government has a huge investment in the girls. I would think their welfare would be a top priority
Agreed.

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Re: If you're a policy maker of SWA......

Post by LoC978 on Sun 7 Oct 2007 - 20:50

Danjo3 wrote:I would think their welfare would be a top priority
it is. A K-9 unit isn't an expendable item, and (despite what many people seem to think) neither is a buck private. without them, the system doesn't work.
... but that doesn't mean they're treated well. only kept healthy, and perhaps given the illusion of making their own decisions. Aside from that, they're worked as close to their breaking point as their leaders dare to get.

**edit**
this is not to say that the handler cannot treat his ward as an equal... even see her as such. but that isn't policy within the Social Welfare Agency, it's merely an option. Jean sure as hell doesn't see Rico as an equal, yet they're a highly effective team. I'd dare to say Hillshire does see Triela as an equal, and they're also a highly effective team. That's what matters to the SWA: they're a highly effective team. whether the cyborg is treated as a partner, little sister, hunting dog, or private Snuffy is of no concern to them.

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Re: If you're a policy maker of SWA......

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 7 Oct 2007 - 21:07

I seriously doubt the Italian government treats a multi-million dollar project the same way they would treat dogs.

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Re: If you're a policy maker of SWA......

Post by LoC978 on Sun 7 Oct 2007 - 21:13

Danjo3 wrote:I seriously doubt the Italian government treats a multi-million dollar project the same way they would treat dogs.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but... you seem to think that K-9 units are expendable and treated horribly. this is quite untrue. they're treated as a valuable team member... just a very low ranking one who is incapable of making decisions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_dog

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Re: If you're a policy maker of SWA......

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 7 Oct 2007 - 21:27

Working at 911-WTC; the dogs there got excellent treatment, although they had to go into places their masters could not.
Thats a given, of course.

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Re: If you're a policy maker of SWA......

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 7 Oct 2007 - 21:29

Dogs are sent in to keep people from getting killed. I’m sorry if you’re an SCPA type guy, but the fact of the mater is - dogs are fodder, plain and simple. They save human lives.

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Re: If you're a policy maker of SWA......

Post by LoC978 on Sun 7 Oct 2007 - 21:35

Danjo3 wrote:Dogs are sent in to keep people from getting killed.
this is true. they're also sent in because they can run faster and further than a human, and because they can detect scents a human can't.
Danjo3 wrote:dogs are fodder, plain and simple.
Given the choice between losing a dog and losing a human officer, any agency would rather lose the dog. But that doesn't mean they're just 'cannon fodder'. They're another weapon, and they're maintained with much more care than most weapons.
Danjo3 wrote: I’m sorry if you’re an SCPA type guy
have I ever seemed like a bleedingheart liberal or a money-grubbing conservative to you?
because those are two groups I hold in the highest echelons of contempt.

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Re: If you're a policy maker of SWA......

Post by Nachtsider on Sun 7 Oct 2007 - 22:13

My opinion is that no matter how valuable the Agency realizes its hit-kids to be and regardless of whether individual supervisors and other personnel try to treat their protegees as humanely as possible, the children will still be officially regarded as experiments and weapons of war first, and human beings second. As LoC pointed out, the way the Agency brass maintains their cyborgs is pretty much akin to the way military outfits care for their most expensive and hi-tech armaments.

I think the last word on the matter rests with the surgeon who operated on Triela in Volume Four of the manga - his reference to her as a 'thing' is very telling, if you ask me.

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Re: If you're a policy maker of SWA......

Post by Danjo3 on Sun 7 Oct 2007 - 22:51

Nachtsider wrote:
I think the last word on the matter rests with the surgeon who operated on Triela in Volume Four of the manga - his reference to her as a 'thing' is very telling, if you ask me.
In the English vision the surgeon called Triela “it”. In the two other versions I have (French and German) he called her, “her” and "she". Maybe this is just another ADV fuck up.

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Re: If you're a policy maker of SWA......

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 7 Oct 2007 - 22:54

Once you draw the line to where you can separate a human from his or her humanity, you have created, amoung other things, Hate.

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Re: If you're a policy maker of SWA......

Post by LoC978 on Sun 7 Oct 2007 - 23:08

... and balade's translation read:
balade wrote:
(Dialogue for the surgeons)
“Donato.”

Donato: “What?”

“The cyborg crying
While unconscious…”

Donato: “Wipe her tear.”

“Ha?”

Donato: “They always like that
Dreaming in their sleep.”
so the nameless doc who refers to her as 'this thing' in the ADV translation simply calls her 'the cyborg'. pretty neutral.
but, regardless of how doctors, handlers, or even the chief of section 2 see them, I don't think policy regarding the girls will change much. While even Lorenzo admits: "These are real human beings...", even he can only do so much in the face of a government whose only concern for them is effectiveness in removing 'obstacles to progress'.
...what movie did I steal that line from? bah. horrible memory.
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Re: If you're a policy maker of SWA......

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 8 Oct 2007 - 0:41

Here's the dialogue from ADV's English version of Volume Four, which I'm quoting verbatim -

Nameless Surgeon: Dr. Donato?

Dr. Donato: Yes?

Nameless Surgeon: This thing is crying. It should still be unconscious, but...

Dr. Donato: Wipe her off.

Nameless Surgeon: Sir?

Dr. Donato: That's how it always is with them. When they sleep, they dream.
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Re: If you're a policy maker of SWA......

Post by LoC978 on Mon 8 Oct 2007 - 1:00

Danjo3 wrote:Maybe this is just another ADV fuck up.
Maybe. We'd have to ask Mr. Aida to be sure. So far, in the translations I've seen it's: "This thing is crying" or "the cyborg is crying" if some other translation reads "She's crying", then we have a 'heartless' translation for nameless doctor's dialog, a 'neutral' translation, and a 'human' translation.
We may as well agree to disagree. Personally, I don't care which it is. That one doctor's outlook has very little to do with how cyborgs are treated as a matter of policy.

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Re: If you're a policy maker of SWA......

Post by boomer_gonz on Mon 8 Oct 2007 - 3:14

Personally, I beleive it can go either way.

There might be a doc in there who still views the cyborgs as little girls, like Jose.

Then again, the same doc might by now be so immune to his emotions that he refers to the cyborgs as equipment, like Jean.

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Re: If you're a policy maker of SWA......

Post by emperor on Mon 8 Oct 2007 - 3:42

boomer_gonz wrote:Personally, I beleive it can go either way.

There might be a doc in there who still views the cyborgs as little girls, like Jose.

Then again, the same doc might by now be so immune to his emotions that he refers to the cyborgs as equipment, like Jean.

Makes me recall a good looking doctor who check Claes body with x-ray.

May be this doc be as you will.:afro:

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Re: If you're a policy maker of SWA......

Post by boomer_gonz on Mon 8 Oct 2007 - 3:43

Perhaps.

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Re: If you're a policy maker of SWA......

Post by Wileama on Mon 8 Oct 2007 - 6:51

okay about this what are the girls to the agency/handlers. I think LoC is more or less right about the dog thing. Though I would say it's more a kin to a fighter plane.

It costs millions, some one breaks it their in trouble. Not, because it has feelings, but rather it's a whole boat load of cash.

The best analogy is a military dog, that just happens to cost a few million. That, and made from babies, or some such to cover the abomination of humanity angle. Well maybe I'm pushing the analogy to far...

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Re: If you're a policy maker of SWA......

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 8 Oct 2007 - 10:42

Thats the problem. When the gov't spends so much money on certain items, and gives it somebody to work with it- knowing full well that it may get destroyed in the feild- they expect full use out of it and yet have it returned in pristine condition.

Cyborgs or not, these are girls with medical prostheises on more than 70% of their body so that they can function at a higher level than everyone else. They are still girls inside all that, and still capable of feelings. But their machine parts can break and have to be repaired. After a while- it becomes a twisted arguement where everyone loses their point of view.

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Re: If you're a policy maker of SWA......

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 8 Oct 2007 - 21:07

This is the French tranlation:

Nameless Surgeon: Dr. Donato?

Dr. Donato: Yes?

Nameless Surgeon: the cybrog is crying. She should still be unconscious, but...

Dr. Donato: Wipe her tears.

Nameless Surgeon: Sir?

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Re: If you're a policy maker of SWA......

Post by boomer_gonz on Tue 9 Oct 2007 - 9:20

That one sounds much more acceptable on the neutral side of things.

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Re: If you're a policy maker of SWA......

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 9 Oct 2007 - 9:53

I do not know about the rest of the world, but here in the East Coast of the USA, most young doctors tend to treat their patients like meat- only treating the affected parts of the person and not the person as a whole.

This does not go by well with some and especially with me. Doctors have to treat the patient as a whole or it will just be meat to them; which makes them nothing short of being butchers.


Last edited by on Tue 9 Oct 2007 - 10:36; edited 1 time in total
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Re: If you're a policy maker of SWA......

Post by emperor on Tue 9 Oct 2007 - 10:28

I do not know about the rest of the world, but here in the East Coast of the USA, most young doctors tend to treat their patients like meat- only treating the affected parts of the person and not the person as a whole.

Thay should be fire. Evil

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Re: If you're a policy maker of SWA......

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 9 Oct 2007 - 10:35

emperor wrote:
I do not know about the rest of the world, but here in the East Coast of the USA, most young doctors tend to treat their patients like meat- only treating the affected parts of the person and not the person as a whole.

Thay should be fire. Evil

Its an institutionalized standard across the whole Health Insurance Industry.
If I was not a Pre-med major in college years before this change- I would be more powerless in what option I would have.
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Re: If you're a policy maker of SWA......

Post by LoC978 on Tue 9 Oct 2007 - 12:33

ElfenMagix wrote:Its an institutionalized standard across the whole Health Insurance Industry
I've put the source of the problem in bold.
this is one instance where Canada, Germany, all those socialists, have a much better system than us.


Last edited by on Tue 9 Oct 2007 - 13:44; edited 1 time in total
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Re: If you're a policy maker of SWA......

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 9 Oct 2007 - 13:31

My bad. You're right.
Even Cuba has a better medical system than we do.

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