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Lifespan

Post by Guest on Mon 9 Jun 2008 - 20:45

Ok, I did a cursory search and didn't see this addressed in another topic exactly (if I'm wrong, I apologize, just point me in the right direction). Does anyone have any theories on why the conditioning/repairs/whatever shortens the lifespan of the girls (at least the first generation)? They seem to indicate that it is something like stress on the brain, but why then are repairs a bad thing, and why can't it be fixed with simple R&R or theoropy or the like? I guess I want sound medical reasoning here, and I either missed something or its not stated, in which case I'd like your opinions. Puzzled

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Re: Lifespan

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 9 Jun 2008 - 20:54

The conditioning is necessary to ensure that their cyber implants and stuff work properly. Sadly, it apparently also happens to be toxic in some way, leading to shortening of lifespan, memory loss and all that jazz. The girls can't live without it, and live short lives with it. It's a sad, vicious cycle.

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Re: Lifespan

Post by Guest on Mon 9 Jun 2008 - 20:55

Ya... is that all we know from the manga? There's that drug addiction thing, too, right? Is that related?

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Re: Lifespan

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 9 Jun 2008 - 21:00

Yup. If they don't get their conditioning drugs, they develop withdrawal symptoms. As I mentioned prior, they need the drugs to get their cyber implants working right.

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Re: Lifespan

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 9 Jun 2008 - 21:49

Yes, it is necessary for the wetware to work with the hardware but damages the wetware as it does.

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Re: Lifespan

Post by KodokuRyuu on Tue 10 Jun 2008 - 0:47

mendoksou wrote:They seem to indicate that it is something like stress on the brain, but why then are repairs a bad thing, and why can't it be fixed with simple R&R or theoropy or the like?
They have to give them conditioning every time they repair them. My guess is it's to help their body accept the new parts.
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Re: Lifespan

Post by Six on Tue 10 Jun 2008 - 1:37

Neuroleptic drugs, which are commonly used in brain washing, or "conditioning" as it is in GG, are thought to shorten lifespans, as well as destroy sexual function and fertility, among other nasty things.

It's a scary little side of Psychiatry that I try to avoid knowing too much about, but I would say Yu Aida seems well-versed in the studies.

Neuroleptic Malignant Syndrome (NMS) is interesting, and may explain certain parts of the GG story, like when one of the girls wakes up after surgery, or when Henrietta refers to her new arm as being "stiff". NMS is defined as "a life-threatening condition that may be caused by certain drugs used to treat mental illness, nausea, or vomiting. Symptoms include high fever, sweating, unstable blood pressure, confusion, and stiffness".
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Re: Lifespan

Post by West Nile on Tue 10 Jun 2008 - 2:21

mendoksou wrote:Ok, I did a cursory search and didn't see this addressed in another topic exactly (if I'm wrong, I apologize, just point me in the right direction). Does anyone have any theories on why the conditioning/repairs/whatever shortens the lifespan of the girls (at least the first generation)? They seem to indicate that it is something like stress on the brain, but why then are repairs a bad thing, and why can't it be fixed with simple R&R or theoropy or the like? I guess I want sound medical reasoning here, and I either missed something or its not stated, in which case I'd like your opinions. Puzzled

haven't we had this already in a "how the cyborgs will die" thread and a "how the cyborgs could be saved" thread?

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Re: Lifespan

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 10 Jun 2008 - 2:27

He's new.

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Re: Lifespan

Post by West Nile on Tue 10 Jun 2008 - 2:31

*look's at the memeber's profile* ow. well as for lifespan wise i guess 1st gens got around 6-7 years when... properly cared for (that's if Triela is really gonna die soon). and shorter if u don't take care of em or not even care for them eg. Elsa

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Re: Lifespan

Post by sasahara17 on Tue 10 Jun 2008 - 4:11

I'd have to disagree with you on one point Nile. Elsa was an abnomalty. She's like, what, the first cyborg ever to die? By her own hand no less? AFTER shooting her handler for breaking her heart?

Hm, maybe she managed to get into Guiness or something. I mean, she's famous! Everbody in the cyborg buisness knows her name. People even sing songs about her (looks at Sheo)!

Somebody give the girl a medal.

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Re: Lifespan

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 10 Jun 2008 - 4:14

A Purple Heart, at the very least.

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Re: Lifespan

Post by West Nile on Tue 10 Jun 2008 - 4:55

@sasahara17 wrote: People even sing songs about her (looks at Sheo)!

really? i wanna hear it (or read it alteast)

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Re: Lifespan

Post by Triela on Tue 10 Jun 2008 - 6:29

If they don't get the proper conditioning I know they get withdrawl, but what would happen if they didn't get conditioned. Would they die?

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Re: Lifespan

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 10 Jun 2008 - 6:34

Well, the cyber implants are all that's keeping them going, and the conditioning is required for the cyber implants to work. The withdrawal symptoms resulting from not getting the conditioning would thus be but the first stretch of a dark and dreary road leading to... well, I think you know where.

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Re: Lifespan

Post by Guest on Tue 10 Jun 2008 - 7:04

Bleh.

In my opinion, its probably the fact that the conditioning and the amount of cybernetics really don't work together. At least not well.

I mean, they have to be taking a ridiculous amount of medication, even with the conditioning. I mean, with so much of their original bodies gone, they have to be medically regulating certain process. Now this normally would be relatively harmless, I mean, people all around the world have a certain level of cybernetism (from things such as artificial hearts, joints, other organs, and limbs) without a real recognizable impact on their lifespans (or in the case of the artificial heart, a significant increase in their lifespans).

However combine that level of chemical regulation and conditioning medication, which plays with brain chemistry and causes shifts in body chemistry of even normal people, and you have created a system that is inherently unstable. And if you continue to increase or add more medication, it'll only get worse. System failure is inevitable.

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Re: Lifespan

Post by LoC978 on Tue 10 Jun 2008 - 9:17

the more I read, the shorter I think their lifespans are...
Spoiler:

that's for the gen2s, so... if the originals were only supposed to live half that long... two and a half to three and a half years.
...But if Ange only lasted about three years, well... those were a busy three years.

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Re: Lifespan

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 10 Jun 2008 - 12:15

LoC. The trouble with this is Angie was the first one, and Triela is figured to be about 5 - 6 years as a cyborg. Though Jean's mouth constantly says the wrong things (forcing Rabello to rewrite Claes 'For Safety Concerns'), I think Jean does not know what he is talking about. Angie seems to have reached that 5 - 7 year mark on her own if you follow that Triela was a cyborg for 5 - 6 years. The Type 2s are suposed to last twice as long than the type ones, making them last about 10 - 14 years.

Angie would have kept on going for another couple more years if some idiot did decide to blow up a garbage truck full of explosives in front of her! Mind you- her body managed to survive- it was the injury to her brain that eventually did her in! And I believe that the med-tech put her down but ODing her on the conditioning meds, for they thought she was too much to repair. The thing is about the human body is that given enough time, it will heal from any sustained injury. The Med-Techs in my belief did not want to put that much more of an investment in Angie, so they put her down and will give Marco another cyborg to play with...

I think that the cyborgs can last at least 10 years, if not longer. Provided that they are properly cared for.

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Re: Lifespan

Post by LoC978 on Tue 10 Jun 2008 - 20:20

Elfen... if Jean was lying to Alessandro in order to scare him (and I hope he was), I agree with you. However, if he was just throwing the cold, hard truth out there... then the Gen2s are only expected to last 5-7 years... and since it's been established earlier that the Gen2s are expected to last approximately twice as long as the Gen1s, that would mean Angie only lasted... well, 4 years maximum.

to address this, though:
Elfen wrote:I think Jean does not know what he is talking about. Angie seems to have reached that 5 - 7 year mark on her own if you follow that Triela was a cyborg for 5 - 6 years.
...we don't have any information to support those numbers, unfortunately. The passage of time is incredibly difficult to track in this series.

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Re: Lifespan

Post by KodokuRyuu on Tue 10 Jun 2008 - 21:05

My response to LoC (in spoiler tags 'cause it has stuff from the latest chapter):
Spoiler:
Chapter 54 goes over Triela's past. It clearly states that her rescue occurred 6 years previous to the current story. I highly doubt that Hillshire kept her in his house for a while with only one leg. I believe that he brought her to Italy to become a cyborg ASAP. That would make Triela a cyborg for 6 years.
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Re: Lifespan

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 10 Jun 2008 - 21:17

Thank you, KodokuRyuu.
I knew I read it somewhere, just could not remember where.

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Re: Lifespan

Post by LoC978 on Tue 10 Jun 2008 - 21:36

sweat guess I should keep up with the scanlations better.
Spoiler:
So, it's been 6 years since he picked Triela off the floor of that dock warehouse in Amsterdam... I guess that makes a minimum of 5 years as a cyborg for Triela (we're still in the dark about how long the reconstruction process takes... I say 3 months minimum, 1 year max)... so yeah. Jean was quoting Gen1 numbers... probably to scare 'Sandro.
...and all this makes me say: SWEET! I don't hafta rethink my numbers anymore!

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Re: Lifespan

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 10 Jun 2008 - 22:06

Spoiler:
So, my estimate of 2001 to 2007 for Triela's total SWA service at time of the chapter in question can hold water! Yippee!

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Re: Lifespan

Post by KodokuRyuu on Tue 10 Jun 2008 - 22:55

@LoC978 wrote:sweat guess I should keep up with the scanlations better.
Spoiler:
So, it's been 6 years since he picked Triela off the floor of that dock warehouse in Amsterdam... I guess that makes a minimum of 5 years as a cyborg for Triela (we're still in the dark about how long the reconstruction process takes... I say 3 months minimum, 1 year max)... so yeah. Jean was quoting Gen1 numbers... probably to scare 'Sandro.
...and all this makes me say: SWEET! I don't hafta rethink my numbers anymore!
What chapter are you on?
Spoiler:
Chapters 30 and 31 seem to indicate it takes about a month or a little more to design a new body, reconstruct the subject's body, and condition them for a 2nd Gen. Angelica of course took much longer 'cause she was the first one. I'm guessing by Triela's time it probably took 3-4 months max. The doctors acted like conditioning was the part that took the longest (They were wondering if they could actually condition someone in only three weeks.) They said Petra's skin would take three days to do and sounded like the body reconstruction took a few days.
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Re: Lifespan

Post by West Nile on Wed 11 Jun 2008 - 5:06

really, i always thought, the whole reconstruction took 1 day, 2 at
most. how d hell can u leave an un finish cyborg, just lying there on
the surgery table over night?!

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Re: Lifespan

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 11 Jun 2008 - 5:30

Not hard to envision, really - they do it one limb at a time, each session ending when surgery on the limb in question is complete.

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Re: Lifespan

Post by West Nile on Wed 11 Jun 2008 - 5:36

well ya, i guess that would work... but this is not just limbs were
talking about. one day for left leg, one day for right leg, one day for
left arm, one day for right arm, one day for head maybe, and then d
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Re: Lifespan

Post by LoC978 on Wed 11 Jun 2008 - 8:28

I'd say they do smaller parts than entire limbs in a session... I've done a bit of studying in both human anatomy and mechanical engineering. Even just a hand is a pretty complex machine. Imagine rebuilding one to be able to handle the stresses of super-strong muscles... and we're not talking bolt-on parts here... each cyborg is different in size and build, so we're talking designing each part from scratch as you get to 'em.

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Re: Lifespan

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 11 Jun 2008 - 9:35

They would have to use a template for just the basic design and alter it for each of the girls' differences.

Q: What is this thing with Yu and legs?!!
I'm just realizing, Triela, Henrietta, Angie, and Petra had their legs shown removed in some stage or another... Maybe he's a leg-man or something.

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Re: Lifespan

Post by Guest on Wed 11 Jun 2008 - 10:08

Or maybe he's the police chief from Speed Grapher!

*laughs*

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Re: Lifespan

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 11 Jun 2008 - 11:29

I think you're probably right about Yu being a leg-man. He definitely had the chance to give Petra a considerable rack, but ended up making her a leggy dancer instead.

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Re: Lifespan

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 11 Jun 2008 - 12:02

:lol!: :lol!: :lol!: :lol!: :lol!:

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Re: Lifespan

Post by Guest on Wed 11 Jun 2008 - 18:43

@LoC978 wrote:I'd say they do smaller parts than entire limbs in a session... I've done a bit of studying in both human anatomy and mechanical engineering. Even just a hand is a pretty complex machine. Imagine rebuilding one to be able to handle the stresses of super-strong muscles... and we're not talking bolt-on parts here... each cyborg is different in size and build, so we're talking designing each part from scratch as you get to 'em.

I would agree there... the surgery itself probably isn't the main time investment in the process. What about the conditioning, then? I'd guess that might take some time, and it seems to be indicated that it is done after the surgery, as one of the girls is shown (I forget who and when, I'd guess Petrushka, but it may have been a flashback) waking up right after her conditioning is done, and the surgery is clearly done first.

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Re: Lifespan

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 11 Jun 2008 - 19:05

It was Petra, all right. Angie also had her surgery done first, and her conditioning second - but Angie's conditioning appears to have been administered in small doses over a period of time.

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Re: Lifespan

Post by KodokuRyuu on Wed 11 Jun 2008 - 22:50

Sorry this is so long - I haven't been on much today.

@West Nile wrote:really, i always thought, the whole reconstruction took 1 day, 2 at
most. how d hell can u leave an un finish cyborg, just lying there on
the surgery table over night?!
I thought that too until I read that.

@Nachtsider wrote:Not hard to envision, really - they do it one limb
at a time, each session ending when surgery on the limb in question is
complete.
Yeah, but they said they wouldn't do the skin till they were don't - kinda gross. It showed exposed muscle and such.

@LoC978 wrote:I'd say they do smaller parts than entire limbs in a
session... I've done a bit of studying in both human anatomy and
mechanical engineering. Even just a hand is a pretty complex
machine. Imagine rebuilding one to be able to handle the stresses of
super-strong muscles... and we're not talking bolt-on parts here...
each cyborg is different in size and build, so we're talking designing
each part from scratch as you get to 'em.
Definitely. I think they prebuild as much as they can before attaching it.

@ElfenMagix wrote:Q: What is this thing with Yu and legs?!!
I'm
just realizing, Triela, Henrietta, Angie, and Petra had their legs
shown removed in some stage or another... Maybe he's a leg-man or
something.
And Rico was missing her limbs in a dream once too! I think his obsession with missing legs is a little creepy myself.

@Nachtsider wrote:It was Petra, all right. Angie also had her surgery
done first, and her conditioning second - but Ange's conditioning
appears to have been administered in small doses over a period of
time.
Yeah, Angie was they first one so they didn't know exactly how it would all work yet. After much experimentation, they got it down where they could make one go of it and even program them with info on guns, their handler, themselves, etc. Ange orriginally woke up remembering who she was and stuff.
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Re: Lifespan

Post by Nachtsider on Wed 11 Jun 2008 - 22:59

@KodokuRyuu wrote:Yeah, but they said they wouldn't do the skin till they were don't - kinda gross. It showed exposed muscle and such.
Well, the muscles are artifical and all that, so leaving them exposed won't cause infections or any such problems.

@KodokuRyuu wrote:And Rico was missing her limbs in a dream once too! I think his obsession with missing legs is a little creepy myself.
I personally wouldn't put it past Yu to be one for... what was it called again? Guro, or something along those lines.

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Re: Lifespan

Post by Tommygunner70 on Thu 12 Jun 2008 - 9:23

Well, it is known that many Japanese males go completely Ga Ga over long sleak legs. I mean, from my point of view: Why the heck do you think that school girls in anime always have such damn short skirts and sleak legs anyway?

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Re: Lifespan

Post by Nachtsider on Thu 12 Jun 2008 - 9:30

Lol male anime artists and costume designers.

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Re: Lifespan

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 12 Jun 2008 - 11:37

In cases like Henrietta, Triela, Petrushka and Rico (perhaps Angie too)- their cyborg implants had to have been put in as a whole as those limbs themselves were missing, and they had to train to get them working on a minimal level. Then the conditioning medication came in to augment their hardware... In Petrushka's case, it was all done at once over the course of several days, while Angie almost took a year or two. The other girls had to have theirs done over the course of weeks, if not months.

So in this light, it seems that the girls no not need the conditioning medication to operate their limbs, but the limbs then become primate prostetics. Something about the conditioning medication that gives the girls augmented abilities with their parts... Possibly connecting natural nerves to synthetic ones and senors, without buring out the natural ones, so their brains can have total and natural control of their cyborg limbs and parts. But to have that level of perfection means having a deal with the devil- a short life span.

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Re: Lifespan

Post by KodokuRyuu on Thu 12 Jun 2008 - 22:28

@Nachtsider wrote:
@KodokuRyuu wrote:Yeah, but they said they wouldn't do the skin till they were don't - kinda gross. It showed exposed muscle and such.
Well, the muscles are artifical and all that, so leaving them exposed won't cause infections or any such problems.
Yeah, I know it just seems creepy. Heh, think of this: what if Sandro walked in before they put her skin on. Very Happy

@Nachtsider wrote:
@KodokuRyuu wrote:And Rico was missing her limbs in a dream once too! I think his obsession with missing legs is a little creepy myself.
I personally wouldn't put it past Yu to be one for... what was it called again? Guro, or something along those lines.
Yeah, it's guro (グロ), which is short for grotesque (グロテスク).

@Elfen - yeah, that all sounds right to me.


Last edited by KodokuRyuu on Thu 12 Jun 2008 - 22:29; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Missed a quote tag)
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Re: Lifespan

Post by West Nile on Thu 12 Jun 2008 - 22:30

[quote="Nachtsider"]
@KodokuRyuu wrote:Yeah, but they said they wouldn't do the skin till they were don't - kinda gross. It showed exposed muscle and such.
Well, the muscles are artifical and all that, so leaving them exposed won't cause infections or any such problems.

I think it was in episode 6 season 2 that they showed one of the girls being "programed", she was moving her fingers and stuff and had no skin at all.

@Nachtsider wrote:
@KodokuRyuu wrote:And Rico was missing her limbs in a dream once too! I think his obsession with missing legs is a little creepy myself.
I personally wouldn't put it past Yu to be one for... what was it called again? Guro, or something along those lines.

Yu? he's probably a Loli/ Guro person, thus the morbid injuries the girls usually get before becoming cyborgs

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Re: Lifespan

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 13 Jun 2008 - 2:00

@West Nile wrote:I think it was in episode 6 season 2 that they showed one of the girls being "programed", she was moving her fingers and stuff and had no skin at all.
Which girl?

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Re: Lifespan

Post by West Nile on Fri 13 Jun 2008 - 5:00

@Nachtsider wrote:
@West Nile wrote:I think it was in episode 6 season 2 that they showed one of the girls being "programed", she was moving her fingers and stuff and had no skin at all.
Which girl?

if i knew, i would have put a name, but since there was no skin... i can't tell

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Re: Lifespan

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 13 Jun 2008 - 5:31

No face shot?

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Re: Lifespan

Post by LoC978 on Fri 13 Jun 2008 - 8:15

nein. looks like a classic sci-fi thing again. skinless cyborg scene:

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Re: Lifespan

Post by KodokuRyuu on Fri 13 Jun 2008 - 21:18

Could have been someone random. By the way, anyone want me to reveal a spoiler from chapter 55? They tell how long it took to make Triela into a cyborg.
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Re: Lifespan

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 13 Jun 2008 - 21:23

Go ahead.

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Re: Lifespan

Post by KodokuRyuu on Fri 13 Jun 2008 - 21:53

Warning: spoiler from chapter 55:
Spoiler:
They spent a year conditioning her. They may have turned her into a cyborg after that since her body was stable, but I don't remember right now.
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Re: Lifespan

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 13 Jun 2008 - 21:57

Spoiler:
I'm more inclined to think that Triela, being the second earliest Agency girl, would have been conditioned in a pattern similar to Angie - after her reconstruction. Go by this line of reasoning, and you'll have Triela getting her drugs in small doses over a year-long post-roboticizing period.

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Re: Lifespan

Post by KodokuRyuu on Fri 13 Jun 2008 - 22:23

Spoiler:
That's assuming that's actually Ange in the other bed. The chapter doesn't say. Does it feel like we're whispering to you? 'Cause it does to me. Razz
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Re: Lifespan

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