Any ideas?

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Any ideas?

Post by TTIO on Mon 28 Jul 2008 - 15:50

I'm creating an OC fratello, but I've had a few problems (this will be general problems as opposed to just clothes-related, since there's nowhere else to put it...)

1. Do all of the handlers always wear suits etc.?
2. Would a young handler (say 25-30) exist? Are there any circumstances in which one could, or would the SWA just not allow one?

I also need some help with guns, but I'll post that once I've sorted out their personalities and what types of guns they would prefer.

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by Guest on Mon 28 Jul 2008 - 16:04


1. Do all of the handlers always wear suits etc.?
2. Would a young handler (say 25-30) exist? Are there any circumstances in which one could, or would the SWA just not allow one?

...I don't think so, but it does make them look dashing and formal in their job so I guess they should...

Marco didn't use his suit once when he's training Angie,

2. Jose, Jean, Hillshire WERE about 25-30 years. Maybe 32-33, but that's about it. Of course, the SWA looks for people with either vendetta to Padanias or have experiences regarding anti-terrorist actions.


And about guns, what type? General Purpose MGs, Assault Rifles, Submachine Gun, Grenade Launchers...

...speaking of which, none of our OCs come equip with something like the M79 Grenade Launcher. It has a buckshot shell, so its CQC capable...and it packs a can of whoop-ass to whoever's unfortunate :p

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 28 Jul 2008 - 16:31

1: Professional Business Attire. You have to look good in what you do no matter what. Suits also allow you to 'hide' your arms better than , lets say- a wife-beater! Besides, all the handers (at least in canon)- are in one form or another college grads and hold other degrees. Marco has a Law Degree, making him a lawyer if he were to take that path.

2: Alessandro is just bearly 25 if that. I put him at about 22 - 23. The government hires gifted individuals at a young age (fresh out of high school) when they are able. Thus must be the case with Alessandro; as was the case with me.

Guns: Pick what you feel comfortable with. Since the SWA is Italian, they tend to go for European weapons (ie: SIGs). Since my Fratello team of Fernando/Rachel- they went to American Arms (ie: S&W 1911, AA M1984, NAA 32). Even their long arms are American (M16, M1, B-.50 cal).

Side track to #1: You also have to keep in mind that the suits, though taken off the rack, were taylored to a perfect fit-which would allow the handlers to move freely without binding or catching onto things. They also probably have a bullet proof liner in them too. A perfect fitting suit is almost like a second skin...

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 28 Jul 2008 - 16:44

@TTIO wrote:2. ...Are there any circumstances in which one could, or would the SWA just not allow one?
This is an interesting question that has me second guessing myself right now because of the case of Ernesto & Pia.
How Ernesto came into the SWA is a big ?! But he did came in with high recommendations... And he was 'working', 'doing' missions for the SWA against Padania; long enough for Pia and Henrietta to be good friends for long time. But as it is said so many times on this form, Ernesto turned to be Padania Scum... who took Pia with him and tried to bring her to the other side. Pia obiedantly followed, and protected Ernesto along the way...

To get this story, which is Canon, you have to get and play the Gunslinger Girl Game for PS2. Unforunately, its in Japanese only.

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 28 Jul 2008 - 16:57

If you want the ultimate Fratello, you should pattern them after the ultimate OCís. The most ridiculously awesome handler is my Biff. The most ridiculous girl is Nachtsiderís Liesel. Look to these two and you canít lose.

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by Nachtsider on Mon 28 Jul 2008 - 19:03

Play it pretty, Danjo Cowell.

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 28 Jul 2008 - 21:02

Liesel & Biff...Now thats a Fratello Team that would even scare Jean Croche!


Last edited by ElfenMagix on Mon 28 Jul 2008 - 21:51; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by Danjo3 on Mon 28 Jul 2008 - 21:14

@ElfenMagix wrote:Liesel & Biff...Now thats a Fratello Team that would even scare Jean Croche!
My god, can you imagine. Those two could rule the world!

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 28 Jul 2008 - 21:56

And I got the perfect title for it:
SWA GodMode: The Biff/Liesel Missions

>Openning Scene: Biff yelling at Jean for some reason.

Biff: I DONT BELIEVE YOU'RE PULLING WEIGHT AROUND HERE!

Biff grabs old of Jean, and straps a boulder of equal weight to Jean's back and drops him to the floor...

Biff: THERE! Now When I See you pulling your own weight around here- then I'll give you a little more respect!

{Or is this out of character for Biff?}

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by Guest on Tue 29 Jul 2008 - 1:52

My god, can you imagine. Those two could rule the world!

!!!!

EMERGENCY!!

CALL IN T3H CHUCK!!!!!!!!

*problem solved*

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by Danjo3 on Tue 29 Jul 2008 - 11:19

Biff & Liesel would definitely save the Agency on bullets. Their marks would all commit suicide when they see the two come into the room.
*BANG!*

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by Nachtsider on Tue 29 Jul 2008 - 13:00

All jokes aside, people, I'd really like you to sit down, scan my fanfiction and name me an instance of Liesel performing any feat approaching unrealistically superhuman, much less any feat worthy of Biff Steele. It's not an unreasonable request.

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by Danjo3 on Tue 29 Jul 2008 - 15:02

@Nachtsider wrote:All jokes aside, people...
Whoís joking? I think those two would be awesome together. Of course, Biff wouldnít stand for her living on her own, heíd make her move back to the Agency with the rest of the commoners.

The real problem is little Britney. She would pop a gasket and go Elsa on their asses. Messy businessÖ :point:


Last edited by Danjo3 on Wed 30 Jul 2008 - 10:42; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 29 Jul 2008 - 15:12

I would say in comparing the lovely Brittany to Liesel is case enough.
Once Brittany has learned how to stay off the trigger and stop causing accidents, then she can be a major threat to the bad guys as the rest of them. She does have the mind set and killer instinct but not the ability to purposefully to do the dirty deed on her own.

Anybody matched with Biff would be a killer team. Liesel in my veiw is one of the better operatives out there.

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by Guest on Tue 29 Jul 2008 - 15:24

Biff & Liesel would definitely save the Agency on bullets. Their marks would all commit suicide when they see the two come into the room.

Somehow I couldn't get enough...

:lol!:

True, but with Chuck entering the room all the enemy would immediately disintegrates into dust or, before he enters the room, he'll round-house kick the door and the whole floor flies away. Now THAT saves bullet and prevents Padania or the Mafias to return there and use it as another base of operation.

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by TTIO on Wed 30 Jul 2008 - 4:48

Laughing

Anyway, I want to get the GSG game but I can't find anywhere in the UK to get it (I know someone who has a subbed copy though).

And the thing about guns, is that I have absolutely no idea when it comes to them. I mean, I know the difference between a sub-machine gun and an assault rifle, for example, but that's about as far as it goes. Oddly enough, I do know how machine guns work (howstuffworks article).

I was thinking though, would it be possible to build a revolver which had 4 hidden barrels inside what would normally be 1? That would pack quite a punch...

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He clasps the crag with crooked hands;
Close to the sun in lonely lands,
Ring'd with the azure world, he stands.

The wrinkled sea beneath him crawls;
He watches from his mountain walls,
And like a thunderbolt he falls.

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by Guest on Wed 30 Jul 2008 - 10:31

I was thinking though, would it be possible to build a revolver which had 4 hidden barrels inside what would normally be 1? That would pack quite a punch...

Yeah, but it'll be a waste of ammo. Besides, if that's so an entirely new trigger mechanism needs to be constructed. Don't forget reloading! It'll be a hell pain in the ass!

A Gatling gun could waste about 100-500 rounds in a second and that thing only has...5-6 rotating barrels. That's one load of ammo thrown away...


To add about guns, there is the caliber a weapon can sustain. A 9mm is definitely one of the weaker ones; the weakest I know is the Soviet 7.65mm pistol ammunition used on the PPSh 41 and Tokarev TT.

Then comes the rifle caliber. This packs a punch, but in return gives you a some recoil to control...not that pistol rounds doesn't, but its a little bit lighter.

The 5.56mm NATO is commonly use in the M16/M4 series along other U.S small arms (they need a change, that thing is weak). Not that powerful, but it enables soldiers to carry more round compare to the larger 7.62mm use in the AK47/74. Then there are German rounds which measures around 7.62 or something, and that also packs a punch...

Lastly there's the cannon-sided round with AP capability. Now this, you don't wish someone fires one at you and it hits your head--it won't be there once it hits. Such rounds is the .50 Cal <<<this, don't mess about.

There are magnum rounds and such, but there's too many to explain and I'm not a gun-nut enough to explain them all, so I'll hand it over to Nacht-sen or Sin-pai to explain the rest :p

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 30 Jul 2008 - 15:05

Much of the research of guns we have today was done 150 years ago in the United States during th Civil War and The Taming Of The Wild West. A 4-barrel gun was proven to be too big and too impractical to have. Furthermore, the recoil of such a weapon was worst than the largest gun of its time. But in those days, there was a 4 barrel revolver in that there was 4 barrels to hold 4 bullets, and the hammer rotated to each round. Due to its size, it was only made for small calibers.

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by Awinnell on Wed 30 Jul 2008 - 15:50

you could always go for a metal storm pistol it has 3 barrels and a million round per minute rate of fire !


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Re: Any ideas?

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 30 Jul 2008 - 15:58

I like keeping it real. Thats one of the few things I can say about GsG canon that I cant with most other anime.

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by Guest on Thu 31 Jul 2008 - 1:27

you could always go for a metal storm pistol it has 3 barrels and a million round per minute rate of fire !

What about the magazine? The round? How do you expect it to be loaded?

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by Danjo3 on Thu 31 Jul 2008 - 1:34

@Awinnell wrote:you could always go for a metal storm pistol it has 3 barrels and a million round per minute rate of fire !
@ElfenMagix wrote:I like keeping it real. Thats one of the few things I can say about GsG canon that I cant with most other anime.
I think Metal Storm might be over doing it just a tad.

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by Awinnell on Thu 31 Jul 2008 - 8:23

Panzer IV wrote:
you could always go for a metal storm pistol it has 3 barrels and a million round per minute rate of fire !

What about the magazine? The round? How do you expect it to be loaded?

the barrels come preloaded they slot into the frame which holds all the electronics you change the barrels to reload,you can select one barrel or all four at once,each barrel can hold a different ammo type you can pick and mix the ammo you want such as two 9mm one .45 and a non lethal rubber bullet !

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by TTIO on Thu 31 Jul 2008 - 10:26

I just want my cyborg to have a revolver of some sort...

Anyway, so long as firing it with double the force isn't a problem, I think I could work out the technicalities of this.
It would be fired to have the same momentum (and ergo recoil) as four ordinary pistol bullets (in one shot, not one bullet). So the recoil would be rather a lot, but not too much to handle.
It would be reloaded by loading prebuilt cartridges (for lack of a better word) which house the bullets as well as a small section of the barrel, so that little actual loading needs to be done.

As such, the four bullets together would have a far greater power than four ordinary bullets as they would be hitting very close to one another. Almost a certain one-hit kill? I think, at least, it would be far more likely to make it through weaker armour...

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The Eagle

He clasps the crag with crooked hands;
Close to the sun in lonely lands,
Ring'd with the azure world, he stands.

The wrinkled sea beneath him crawls;
He watches from his mountain walls,
And like a thunderbolt he falls.

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 31 Jul 2008 - 21:08

Lets say this, 6 shot, 4 barrel gun you so describe would be overkill.
This would make the revolving chamber with 24 holes. Lets say you're using rinky dink .25 caliber... This would make the revolving chamber 4" in diameter miminally.

Then the force to pull the tigger to send 4 hammers or 1 super large hammer down, over 15 pounds of force, which is conservative, yet double the trigger pull of a normal revolver. Then add more trigger pull to advance the revolving chamber... You are now pushing over 20+ pounds of force.

These figures are for a tiny .25 caliber off the top of my head. From here, larger bullets, trigger puling power goes up exponetially. Also the recoil goes up exponentially. From 100lbs of recoil (a conservative figure, which last for a micro second of the bullet travelling through the barrel) to almost a ton of force. No matter how good the cyborg is, these figures do not show that it is possible. A lot of Handwavium will be required to fix this.

You would be better off with something like this:


A Taurus Raging Bull .50cal revolver.
or


Smith & Wesson Model 460 XVR (Extreme Velocity Revolver) chambered in .460 S&W Magnum

Thanks Sintendo and Emporer for the images...

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by TTIO on Fri 1 Aug 2008 - 15:52

Most of that, unfortunetly, makes no sense to me as I think in metric...

But, a few things:
1. 700N with two fingers (likely only one) does sound very unreasonable though could be possible (depending on one cruicial factor which I have now forgotten. As such, I don't know if it could be done or not). However, almost 7 kilos of force for just four hammers? Doesn't seem to fit in my mind.
2. The recoil is easy to work out. Just tell me the speed of a .25 bullet normally Very Happy
3. Yeah, that will be one big barrel... Though it would only be that big at the cartridge section, I assume.

Also, I now have a completed (though not coloured) picture of my cyborg. I'll put it with the dossier once I've finished...


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The Eagle

He clasps the crag with crooked hands;
Close to the sun in lonely lands,
Ring'd with the azure world, he stands.

The wrinkled sea beneath him crawls;
He watches from his mountain walls,
And like a thunderbolt he falls.

Alfred Tennyson - 1851
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Re: Any ideas?

Post by Piero on Fri 1 Aug 2008 - 16:25

Four barreled six shooter sounds to me like an hugely expensive, bulky, and complex gun requiring custom design and manufacture. I don't think it would be worth it. Multiple tiny bullets don't necessarily do better then a single medium or large calibre one (though I do admit, shotguns do seem to be pretty effective -that's a different story though). Best to choose a reliable, well respected semi auto of some sort.
Much more sensible.

I also think having a grasp on the character first is a useful aid in choosing a good weapon for them. Different guns give different impressions, and certain types seem to 'fit' certain types of characters.

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 1 Aug 2008 - 17:42

Only thing that comes close is an old 1850's Remington or Sharps pepperbox guns...
They mostly came in a 4 barrel configuration, but I heard of some really odd designs of more barrels, but can only fire 1 shot at a time. Only advantage to this is firing it faster than a common revolver, where you have to wait for the revolving chamber to spin into place, where this is just the hammer spinning- lighter = faster.

Here's a pic of it:


Here is a 6 barrel one from W.W.Marston:



and another 6 barrel from Becon Arms:

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by TTIO on Sat 2 Aug 2008 - 9:18

They sound pretty good...

Thing is, I want my character to have a revolver as a secondary weapon but I need to find some way to make it useful beyond the first 6 shots. After all, they can take ages to reload, and that makes them useless in a modern gunfight.

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He clasps the crag with crooked hands;
Close to the sun in lonely lands,
Ring'd with the azure world, he stands.

The wrinkled sea beneath him crawls;
He watches from his mountain walls,
And like a thunderbolt he falls.

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by Danjo3 on Sat 2 Aug 2008 - 11:16

@TTIO wrote:Thing is, I want my character to have a revolver as a secondary weapon but I need to find some way to make it useful beyond the first 6 shots.
Well, in an up close and personal situation, she could crack someone in the head with it. Laughing

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 2 Aug 2008 - 13:22

A cyborg can reload a gun faster than the fastest man. I think reload time should be the least of your worries.

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 2 Aug 2008 - 22:21

In my OC's case, she carries 10 round clips- 1 already in the gun and either 2 or 4 more in her pockets or purse (depends on weither she carries the purse). Thats 30 to 50 rounds of ammo she's carrying. Now, if at this point she needs a back up weapon because she ran out ammo in her primary gun, the first heavy object she can pickup will be her weapon.

Rachel has a 1911 as her personal weapon, and a smaller but more potient NAA .32/.38 as her mission weapon. They are not back ups to each other. They just have specific jobs for specific reasons.

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by Guest on Sun 3 Aug 2008 - 3:23

A cyborg can reload a gun faster than the fastest man. I think reload time should be the least of your worries.

Yeah.

But not for Frederick...

Frederick literally wrecks a gun if its using the standard magazine. Instead, he uses a stripper clip for his Mauser C/96--and he has two of them, so reload time takes extra for him :p

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by TTIO on Mon 4 Aug 2008 - 16:00

You know, I just had a thought. The gattling gun is hugely impractical because you need to constantly turn a handle to fire, right? So what do you do? Fit a motor onto it instead.

My idea for the revolver is impractical because you need to put a massive amount of force onto the trigger. So what do you do? Have the trigger powered electronically... Very Happy

Course, that doesn't solve the problem of the massive barrel or the recoil, but this will be a 1-hit weapon so I don't think recoil is too important...

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by LoC978 on Mon 4 Aug 2008 - 17:37

four barreled pistol? two words:

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 4 Aug 2008 - 22:56

@TTIO wrote:You know, I just had a thought. The gattling gun is hugely impractical because you need to constantly turn a handle to fire, right? So what do you do? Fit a motor onto it instead.

My idea for the revolver is impractical because you need to put a massive amount of force onto the trigger. So what do you do? Have the trigger powered electronically... Very Happy

Course, that doesn't solve the problem of the massive barrel or the recoil, but this will be a 1-hit weapon so I don't think recoil is too important...
The original Civil War Gattling Gun used a hand crank.

You can lighen the trigger load but the mkes the gun unreliable and prone to breakage.

There are eletronic trigger locks, and electronic trigger mechanisms. Problem, what to do if the battery dies and the trigger remains locked?

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by Guest on Tue 5 Aug 2008 - 9:29

The original Civil War Gattling Gun used a hand crank.

That must be very tiring...especially if they're facing rows and rows of soldiers.


There are eletronic trigger locks, and electronic trigger mechanisms. Problem, what to do if the battery dies and the trigger remains locked?

The trigger blew up?

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by TTIO on Tue 5 Aug 2008 - 11:21

@LoC978 wrote:four barreled pistol? two words:

Other than that it isn't a revolver, that's exactly what I'm looking for Very Happy

I think I'll have that as her secondary, and a revolver as just an extra which she has but doesn't necessarily use...

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by Awinnell on Tue 5 Aug 2008 - 11:56

@TTIO wrote:
@LoC978 wrote:four barreled pistol? two words:

Other than that it isn't a revolver, that's exactly what I'm looking for Very Happy

I think I'll have that as her secondary, and a revolver as just an extra which she has but doesn't necessarily use...

didn't i suggest that a page ago ?

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by TTIO on Wed 6 Aug 2008 - 6:24

Did you? Maybe I missed it, or dissmissed it because I didn't realise what it was like. If you did, I apologise.

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by Guest on Fri 29 Aug 2008 - 18:26

The four-barreled weapon is quite a revolutionary idea for a cyborg. I would imagine the cyborg in question would have some relevance to the weapon, is usually how I figure mine.

The four-barreled weapon is incapable of jamming, have nearly no recoil, and shoots rounds so fast they are better than having .50 cals, and is thus far more accurate. Plus, reloading is done as little as taking a specially designed clip, where the bullets are stacked one in front of the other, and rolled right into the barrel. Then the clip could have a mechanism that pushes the rounds securely in, and presto... you reloaded almost as fast as someone else! Problem is, though, you can only fire a group of rounds per barrel at once, which means 4 shots before reloading.

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 29 Aug 2008 - 22:17

@Colonel Marksman wrote:The four-barreled weapon is incapable of jamming, have nearly no recoil...
You never shot a double barrel shotgun with both barrels at once...

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by Guest on Sat 30 Aug 2008 - 16:06

@ElfenMagix wrote:
@Colonel Marksman wrote:The four-barreled weapon is incapable of jamming, have nearly no recoil...
You never shot a double barrel shotgun with both barrels at once...

Well, perhaps if ALL the barrels launched their payload at the exact same time, then I'd see problems. From what I've seen though, I figured it fired one barrel at a time. I don't see the point of having them all shoot at once, except maybe for a super-powerful shotgun.

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by Wileama on Sat 30 Aug 2008 - 21:27

Are you talking about the purposed metal storm weapon? That about the only four barrel weapon that remotely sounds close to what your talking about.

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by Guest on Sat 30 Aug 2008 - 22:56

Yes it is. It's the weapon of choice for the cyborg we are discussing. A rather... interesting... choice if you ask me.

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by ElfenMagix on Sun 14 Sep 2008 - 18:21

The problem here is I see it the gun itself.

If this 4 barrel is a bullet with a gunpowder casing, then its not going to work, and onw would have to go back to the pre/post American civil war tech of multi-barrel guns of the time. If in having bullets w/casing stacked one behind the other, you fire one bullet, the bullet behind it would have to push out the casing of the bullet before it when its turn comes. Mechanically, it would not work

If this were to be some sort of Rail Gun system, then I can see it working, BUT... the amount ot power One would need to make it work would be like having large 4 car batteries strapped to one's back to power the gun! Outside of that, there is no recoil on a rail gun system; but there is an over heating issues that needs to be dealt with or else your barrel will start to warp after the second round is shot.

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by Piero on Sun 14 Sep 2008 - 18:28

The metal storm concept uses caseless ammo, hence no need to push out spent casings. Still, I don't believe anyone is fielding such weapons right now. I suggest sticking with a current production semi auto.

As for rail guns, well... they do have recoil. Probably less so then a gunpowder based weapon firing the same round to the same velocity, but they've still got to make that bullet move.

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 14 Sep 2008 - 19:23

@Piero wrote:The metal storm concept uses caseless ammo, hence no need to push out spent casings. Still, I don't believe anyone is fielding such weapons right now.

I have only seen prototypes of it, using scores of barrels in a large cube. And since the weapon is electrically-activated, you'd likely need a good-size battery for power.

Looking at their site, it seems they seem to be concentrating on grenade launching weapons.
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Re: Any ideas?

Post by Guest on Mon 15 Sep 2008 - 0:05

As for rail guns, well... they do have recoil. Probably less so then a gunpowder based weapon firing the same round to the same velocity, but they've still got to make that bullet move.

The metalstorm 4-barreled handgun shoots 4 bullets before it recoils. And no, it doesn't use gunpowder. It is some form of railgun, but it specifically surges an electrical charge that... gah, I forgot. Anyway, it is incapable of jamming, and there are no shell casings.

It would "jam" if the electronic systems failed.

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Re: Any ideas?

Post by Piero on Mon 15 Sep 2008 - 0:32

Metal Storm is not a railgun. It uses electrical ignition, but chemical propellant.

Metal Storm is currently a developmental system, and Metal Storm based handguns don't seem to be the main priority right now. Stick with an existing revolver or semi auto.

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