Weapons stretched to the limits

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by Guest on Fri 7 Nov 2008 - 7:56

Humm...with vantage point, I think it will...

...but considering gravity and wind, hitting a target that far is impossible

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 7 Nov 2008 - 10:52

@Colonel Marksman wrote:That means if Fernando tried aiming his gun straight at the watertower, he has a 0% chance of hitting it.

As I understand it, Fernando is not aiming right at the target. So he would not be aiming right for the water tower.

Instead, he is using his pistol like an artillery piece, firing it in a long ballistic arc, using the energy from the propellant in the case to allow the bullet to climb the front half of the parabola and then using gravity to drop the bullet back down the back half. So 325m of linear distance up and 325m of linear distance down (with whatever actual bullet travel distance along the arc).

I am assuming the bullet would expend all it's kinetic energy received from the gunpowder charge in climbing the initial side of the parabola, but it would then it would be under the acceleration of gravity when it started to descend the other side of the parabola. I am guessing that this acceleration would be insufficient to penetrate (at worse, I expect a bruise), since a .45 bullet is rounded or flat (depending on the type) and would likely wobble or tumble as it fell and therefore could hit sideways or backwards.

I know there was an episode of either CSI or CSI: Miami where somebody shot a pistol round into the air and it arced and came down a few blocks (?) a way and killed someone. But that's television, so...

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by Guest on Fri 7 Nov 2008 - 13:05

But still, even if you did shoot in an arc--a very-very wide arc, its near-impossible to hear a target that far. Not to mention the wind that will shift the arc of the projectile.

That's why, ladies and gentlemen, the sniper rifle exists today. To get rid that pesky camper up that water tower!

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by LoC978 on Fri 7 Nov 2008 - 15:10

Yeah... I think the big factor here is wind. Making that shot would be one hell of a stroke of luck. Telling which way the wind is going where you're standing is one thing, but it could very well be the opposite where your target is (not everywhere is like the flats of Texas, Colonel. Try shooting anywhere in the Pacific Coast Ranges some time. There's no telling wind at that distance).

We should send this one in to Mythbusters. Ask 'em to set up one indoors (probably hafta be in an aircraft hangar) and one outdoors, with the gun on their angle-adjustable stand. I'd imagine the end would be something like this:

"Well, at the indoor range it hit (sixty-ish) shots out of a hundred. Outdoors it hit (twenty-ish). so I'd call this one a little far-fetched... but plausible."
-That's a rough guess, btw. I have no numbers to back it up, just gut feeling backed by having fired a lot of .45s.

By the way, we're talking about a human silhouette target here, right?

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by Guest on Fri 7 Nov 2008 - 16:29

@LoC978 wrote:(not everywhere is like the flats of Texas, Colonel.

My point exactly. Try making that kind of shot in say, New York City or other places. Yoru visual range is severely limited -- only a runway or long, long stretches of road give you the full feel of such distances. But you are expanding on my point that the earth does curve (even here in Texas), and that the direction you face is important.

And Texas got its hills, winds, and mountains, however small they are. Smile

By the way, we're talking about a human silhouette target here, right?
Yeah, in the rifle range.


Well, I don't doubt the lethality of the round at far distances, at least the ability to strike a human silhouette anyway. I doubt the possibility of hitting such a target.

Kishaloo wrote:Instead, he is using his pistol like an artillery piece, firing it in a long ballistic arc, using the energy from the propellant in the case to allow the bullet to climb the front half of the parabola and then using gravity to drop the bullet back down the back half. So 325m of linear distance up and 325m of linear distance down (with whatever actual bullet travel distance along the arc).
Did you see my formulas? It isn't that simple. Aiming an artillery piece is a lot harder than simply pointing the barrel in the direction of the target, aiming up and shooting. There's a math to it that take physics into account, that modern-day computers do for us. And the formulas I'm using are Marine sniper ones, far less sophisticated than those used to lob artilley shells.

My point about aiming at the watertower is that you can't even aim at that distance. If your hands cocked to the left by .1 inch when you pull the trigger, you miss. If the bloodflow in your veins pump blood through you fingers to tilt the gun and move it with pulsing, you will miss. If there is wind, forget it. Even if you get a benchpress and mechanical grip on the pistol to aim like that artillery peice, a 3 mph wind from the west of the shooter will blow the bullet off course by 7 feet. If there is a 9 mph wind, the shot will below off course by 22 feet to the right.


Fernando would look like this:


The picture on the far right is the best chance you have of hitting a target at that distance after the expense of 100 bullets. You would also want to have tracer rounds (if possible) to see the arcing curve of the bullet and better judge with the wind and breathing (and yes, I am facing the direction of the target).

But that's if things ar done outdoors, with 3-5 mph winds, and flat ground.

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by Guest on Sun 30 Nov 2008 - 18:45

hhmm. From my experienc with firearms [I'm from Texas too]. I'd have to agree hitting a target with a .45 pistol at 150m is more a matter of luck than skill. As for the example for hits in NYC area, some of those seem to be happenstance rather than aimed shots. When you fire up, that bullets going to come down on something and consdering the poulation density in NYC area....

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by Nachtsider on Sun 30 Nov 2008 - 19:13

We need Wil in this thread. Stat.

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by Wileama on Mon 1 Dec 2008 - 5:49

Why? Colonel Marksman is doing a fairly good job of enforcing sanity. I didn't speak up earlier, because I really didn't feel like pointing out the obvious. Besides the Colonel, and I agreeing is just another sign of the apocalypse. I didn't want to worry the rest of you about the coming end of the world.

Oh don't give me that look Colonel, you know I'm just joking. mostly

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 1 Dec 2008 - 10:57

@Wileama wrote:Besides, the Colonel and I agreeing is just another sign of the apocalypse. I didn't want to worry the rest of you about the coming end of the world.

So are you hinting that I should be putting Jackie Chan, MacGuyver and Rorshach on my speed dial? Wink

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by LoC978 on Mon 1 Dec 2008 - 13:22

*quietly continues sharpening his favorite sword*

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by Tommygunner70 on Mon 1 Dec 2008 - 13:28

@LoC978 wrote:*quietly continues sharpening his favorite sword*

*grabs hold of the sheath at his hip.*

I think me and LoC could double team with our swords Razz

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 1 Dec 2008 - 17:39

Throw Fernando in and we can make this a triple...

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by Tommygunner70 on Mon 1 Dec 2008 - 18:04

@ElfenMagix wrote:Throw Fernando in and we can make this a triple...

What fighting style?

Mine is a mix between Ninja and Samurai.

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 1 Dec 2008 - 18:22

Fernando knows his basic Samuri Bushido code, but he is an Olympic Class Sabre Fencer and true Swashbuckler. Giorgio Santelli was his master during high school competition.

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 1 Dec 2008 - 19:09

Well Michele has been studying kenjutsu and it's peers for years and he has Kara enrolled in it now, as well.
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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by LoC978 on Mon 1 Dec 2008 - 23:44

I haven't studied any one form of swordsmanship (or any martial art, for that matter) extensively, but...

-I have been formally trained (briefly, as I didn't take to the rules very well) in classical fencing, while I was studying up on (and lamenting the death of) academic fencing to first blood.
-I've trained informally in classical european swordfighting, which is pretty loose and just consists of guard stances and basic swings/thrusts...
-I've studied academically and trained alone in Kendo and for awhile I was part of an online community that attempted to recreate the swordsmanship style depicted in the Wheel of Time (hence my really expensive, battle-ready heron-mark sword), which takes much of its styling from Kendo (Shinkendo, really... but who wants to get that serious?)

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by TTIO on Tue 2 Dec 2008 - 16:58

@LoC978 wrote:-I have been formally trained (briefly, as I didn't take to the rules very well) in classical fencing, while I was studying up on (and lamenting the death of) academic fencing to first blood.


By 'the rules' should I take it you mean foil/sabre? 'Cos Epée really doesn't have many...

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by LoC978 on Tue 2 Dec 2008 - 17:40

yeah, it was with foils... and padding, and facemasks, on little thin mats. That's pretty much why I couldn't stand it. All the unnecessary equipment and restriction of lateral movement pissed me off to no end... I still learned quite a bit of useful technique, though.
Sabers or rapiers to first blood would've been so much more fun...

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by Wileama on Wed 3 Dec 2008 - 0:30

@Kiskaloo wrote:So are you hinting that I should be putting Jackie Chan, MacGuyver and Rorshach on my speed dial? Wink
Only if you've been tapped to be the horse men.

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by maverick375 on Mon 27 Apr 2009 - 20:25

Back to the sniping shot with the 45acp, even assuming the shooter is perfect and removing variable wind (even a steady 5mph wind is not constant), you are still limited to the capabilities of the gun. The reason a rifle barrel is longer is to increase accuracy through higher speeds, faster spin, and longer sight-radius.

The velocity of a 45acp round is typically sub-1K fps. Rifle rounds are in the 2K-3K ranges The difference is in how long the bullet is affected by wind, gravity, air-friction, etc. The 45 is going to suffer horribly beyond 100ft from any influences. A 650meter (distance) shot is possible via arcing, but there is no possibility of accuracy outside of a vacuum.

The spin of a bullet affects it's accuracy through it's flight stabilization. The length of the barrel affects this even more than the balance of the bullet itself. A short barrel cannot reproduce the accuracy of a rifle. When I say accuracy, I mean consistancy. Even assuming a person lands one shot from a pistol on a target 650m away, with the same gun, load, wind, etc, the gun will not land a bullet in the same place. It's just not possible because of the lack of accuracy inherent to the gun.

Sight radius: A longer sight radius provides for finer control over where the bullet is pointed. Sights on their own comprise an entire field of study and personal preferences in the gun world. Some like a blade sight, some like three-dot, some like a mix. There's a sight for everyone. Slap the sights of a rifle on a 45 and you'll still get a miss simply because there's not enough length to support an accurate shot to that range.

Then, as if that's not enough, you won't be able to see your target as you're sighting with the 45 because you'll be arcing it, with no visibility. Even if you can see the target visually at 650 meters, you have to pick a spot in the sky to fire at. If you're looking at the sky, you can't see your target, so a sight drift to one side or the other is a given because you have no reference point for where to aim on the lateral plane. That alone makes it an impossible shot by anything other than a bench rest and practice shots to set a range.

Finally, even if you had a pistol that didn't require arcing (i.e. a rifle-speed muzzle velocity and adequate bullet), and had fine-tuning sights, you would not be able to see your target at that range even if you could with your naked eye. Why? Because you would be focusing on maintaining your front sight in relation to the rear for the perfect alignment. The front sight is in focus, the rear is blurred, and the target is blurred because it is out of your eye's focal alignment. you might be able to see the water tower as a blurry mass, but you would not be able to pick out a person at that range.

Firing a 45ACP anything at that target is going to get you a miss, guaranteed. A hit is less likely than being struck by lightning because there are ways to ensure that happens.

Oh yeah.. one more thing. You couldn't walk your shots to the target if you miss because you wouldn't be able to see the effects at that range without a scope.
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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by Kiskaloo on Mon 27 Apr 2009 - 20:33

@maverick375 wrote:Back to the sniping shot with the 45acp...

Solid explanation but, in the end, it's all irrelevant.

All you need to know is it was Fernando. He's not a god, but he is god-like, so what is impossible for mortal men is merely slightly difficult for him. Wink

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by ElfenMagix on Mon 27 Apr 2009 - 21:21

And what's slightly difficult for Fernando, takes sheer luck and tenacity for ordinary men to do!

But then again- this is the .45ACP we're talking about! There's many known myths about the gun, and many probably thousands more we dont know about! What do you expect for a gun that has been around for almost 100 years!

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by Guest on Mon 27 Apr 2009 - 23:03

Wow, this topic is... ... old, very old.

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by ElfenMagix on Tue 28 Apr 2009 - 22:23

At least we can have fun with it.
Anyways, this being in the fanon section, means how could it be done. Success or failure is only dependant on the author. Evil

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by West Nile on Wed 29 Apr 2009 - 3:43

ow about the "sniping with a handgun" thing. is there a scientific find
on the minimum distance an object must be before the eyes would tell
that person "well, he apears pretty far away" and is that distance
reachable by the conventional .45 handgun?

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 29 Apr 2009 - 21:19

For me, that would be 3ft beyond the hood of my car...
So yes, it can be reached by a .45ACP!
:lol!: Evil :lol!: Evil :lol!: Evil :lol!: Evil :lol!: Evil :lol!: Evil

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by West Nile on Fri 1 May 2009 - 10:18

if one added more gun powder in his rounds would his bullet go further?

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 1 May 2009 - 10:53

@West Nile wrote:if one added more gun powder in his rounds would his bullet go further?

Yes, though there is a practical limit (in terms of volume and pressures) to how much you can add.

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by West Nile on Fri 1 May 2009 - 11:06

well, can't u get a longer shell for the same bullet, a smaller bullet?

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 1 May 2009 - 11:10

Then you'll need to resize all your magazines.

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 1 May 2009 - 11:11

@West Nile wrote:well, can't u get a longer shell for the same bullet, a smaller bullet?

You could in theory cast a smaller length bullet, but the diameter needs to stay constant to ensure the shell casing mates to it. And a smaller bullet may not take higher loads imposed on it by more powder.

I would imagine a longer casing would not be possible on a semi-auto or automatic weapon due to feeding problems. It might work on a bolt-action rifle using manual loading through the breech, assuming it would fit through the breech.

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 1 May 2009 - 11:11

Yeah, and resize the gun chambers, too.

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by West Nile on Fri 1 May 2009 - 11:22

i meant smaller buller more gunpoweder

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 1 May 2009 - 11:27

@West Nile wrote:i meant smaller buller more gunpoweder

Well you'd need to neck-down the cartridge to fit around the smaller bullet, but again, I would expect this would make the "bullet-cartridge join" (I do not know the technical term) weaker. More gunpowder increases the pressure against both the cartridge and the bullet so I would be afraid that join would fail on firing, possibly with serious negative results.

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 1 May 2009 - 20:26

@West Nile wrote:i meant smaller buller more gunpoweder
This is done with the .32-NAA, which my OCs use for missions. Yes, its an oddball ammunition- a .32 round in a neck-downed .38 casing, but the results are devastating.

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by West Nile on Sat 2 May 2009 - 0:17

@ElfenMagix wrote:
@West Nile wrote:i meant smaller buller more gunpoweder
This is done with the .32-NAA, which my OCs use for missions. Yes, its an oddball ammunition- a .32 round in a neck-downed .38 casing, but the results are devastating.

added range?

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 2 May 2009 - 0:57

Considering that its a 2.5" barrel on the .32NAA, I'm not expecting accuracy and range from it, but at almost 200 pounds of force hitting its target, its a comparable man-stopper to larger calibers. Including, I dare say- the 9mm and the .45ACP.

With a longer barrel, as stated in the website, its engery increases, and thus accuracy and range. But the gun itself is only meant to be a close range shooter (100ft-200ft max), and small for concealability.

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by MikhailN on Wed 24 Jun 2009 - 9:42

Finally I wander to this portion of the forums and hoo boy...

@ElfenMagix wrote:Considering that its a 2.5" barrel on the .32NAA, I'm not expecting accuracy and range from it, but at almost 200 pounds of force hitting its target, its a comparable man-stopper to larger calibers. Including, I dare say- the 9mm and the .45ACP.

200 pounds of force is a lot, but is it all transferred to the target? I daresay the 5.56x45 has more kinetic energy, but Delta Force reported that the stopping power was insufficient in engagements in Somalia.

@ElfenMagix wrote:With a longer barrel, as stated in the website, its engery increases, and thus
accuracy and range. But the gun itself is only meant to be a close
range shooter (100ft-200ft max), and small for concealability.

Common misunderstanding due in part to shoddy advertising. A longer barrel means that the bullet stays longer in the barrel, where it gets propelled by the hot gases from the gunpowder. Hence, longer barrel means higher muzzle velocity and, assuming you're comparing bullets of the same mass, more kinetic energy and hence a longer effective range. However, this has nothing to do with accuracy. Accuracy is dependent on other things like wind, light conditions, shooter proficiency, barrel twists and at longer distances, Coriolis Effect, curvature of the Earth and heck, even geography come into play. Nothing whatsoever to do with energy of the bullet.

There are reports that longer barrels give the shooter more accuracy. Actually the explanation is extremely simple. Longer barrels mean that the foresight and hindsight are further apart and hence more sensitive to small errors in sight alignment on the part of the shooter. That's all.


@maverick375 wrote:Back to the sniping shot with the 45acp...

Awesome! You do know your stuff. Good Just asking, would you happen to be involved in the field of long-range shooting? Anyway let me add on some more...

@maverick375 wrote:The velocity of a 45acp round is typically sub-1K fps. Rifle rounds are in the 2K-3K ranges The difference is in how long the bullet is affected by wind, gravity, air-friction, etc. The 45 is going to suffer horribly beyond 100ft from any influences. A 650meter (distance) shot is possible via arcing, but there is no possibility of accuracy outside of a vacuum.

Also, the stopping power would have been eroded away by air resistance because the bullet stayed in the air to long. The piece of metal would just tap him on the head.

@maverick375 wrote:The spin of a bullet affects it's accuracy through it's flight stabilization. The
length of the barrel affects this even more than the balance of the bullet itself. A short barrel cannot reproduce the accuracy of a rifle. When I say accuracy, I mean consistancy. Even assuming a person lands one shot from a pistol on a target 650m away, with the same gun, load, wind, etc, the gun will not land a bullet in the same place. It's just not possible because of the lack of accuracy inherent to the gun.

I think you're a little lost here. Yes the spin of the bullet stabilizes flight, but it has little to do with barrel length. Instead, it has to do with the gyroscopic forces acting on the spinning bullet and because of this the rifling of the barrel must be done correctly. Go read the Greenhill Formula for more info. FYI, there's a non-Olympic sport shooting course of fire called Long Range Pistol Shooting where the competitors shoot at ranges ranging from 100m (for the Colt .45) to 500m (with scoped bolt action pistols looking more like rifles without stocks)

@maverick375 wrote:Sight radius: A longer sight radius provides for finer control over where the
bullet is pointed. Sights on their own comprise an entire field of study and personal preferences in the gun world. Some like a blade sight, some like three-dot, some like a mix. There's a sight for
everyone. Slap the sights of a rifle on a 45 and you'll still get a miss simply because there's not enough length to support an accurate shot to that range.

Finally, even if you had a pistol that didn't require arcing (i.e. a rifle-speed muzzle velocity and adequate
bullet), and had fine-tuning sights, you would not be able to see your target at that range even if you could with your naked eye. Why? Because you would be focusing on maintaining your front sight in
relation to the rear for the perfect alignment. The front sight is in focus, the rear is blurred, and the target is blurred because it is out of your eye's focal alignment. you might be able to see the water tower as a blurry mass, but you would not be able to pick out a person at that range.

OOO you DO have experience with precision shooting with iron sights. You're right when you say that sights are a whole field of study and I don't want to go there. Just want to say that the depth of field issue (with iron sights like on the Colt .45, the human eye cannot focus on the hindsight, foresight and target at the same time) can be overcome if the target is stationary. Roughly align your sights, place them where you want to aim, bring your focus back to the sights and do fine aligning then shoot. I do this for 20m targets with my P226 butI haven't tried for 500m targets... Anyway at 500m the target is smaller than your foresight so you can go have fun Coolz

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 24 Jun 2009 - 17:31

@MikhailN wrote:Finally I wander to this portion of the forums and hoo boy...

@ElfenMagix wrote:Considering that its a 2.5" barrel on the .32NAA, I'm not expecting accuracy and range from it, but at almost 200 pounds of force hitting its target, its a comparable man-stopper to larger calibers. Including, I dare say- the 9mm and the .45ACP.

200 pounds of force is a lot, but is it all transferred to the target? I daresay the 5.56x45 has more kinetic energy, but Delta Force reported that the stopping power was insufficient in engagements in Somalia.
A lot of the idiots encountered at Somalia were juiced up on some drug- so shooting them did not do much unless it was a shot to the head- and even then, they could survive that with the right drug (Angel Dust, aka: PCP can do this). It did not matter where the idiot was shot at (other than a head shot, and even then...), when juiced up, they still kept on coming. I have seen more than my fair share of idiots in my time juiced up on who knows what. The results are:

Idiot on PCP - Tackles a Gasoline Tanker, and survives the resulting crash and explosion.
Another Idiot on PCP - Climbs out of elevator, derails it and fall 13 stories- and survives.
Idiot on LSD - Thought he could fly- takes a 15 story plunge off a building and survives. Dont ask how.. he did.
Idiot on Crack - Causes a Multi-car wreck, has a Compound broken leg fracture, but does not feel a thing- even after he tries to stand on said leg and the bone flies out the flesh and he falls to the floor with the bone sticking out of his leg, asking the police "Duh... What happened?!!"
Idiot on Cocaine - Drag racing his corvette, hits a parked car and ends up somersalting the corvette end over end over a NYC Lamppost (They are about 50ft high!). Car lands in its roof, and his head is cracked opened with full view of brains, but he says that he's OK... he dies 20 minutes later when his Cocaine driven high wears off.

And there is more...

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by MikhailN on Wed 24 Jun 2009 - 19:34

@ElfenMagix wrote:
@MikhailN wrote:Finally I wander to this portion of the forums and hoo boy...

@ElfenMagix wrote:Considering that its a 2.5" barrel on the .32NAA, I'm not expecting accuracy and range from it, but at almost 200 pounds of force hitting its target, its a comparable man-stopper to larger calibers. Including, I dare say- the 9mm and the .45ACP.

200 pounds of force is a lot, but is it all transferred to the target? I daresay the 5.56x45 has more kinetic energy, but Delta Force reported that the stopping power was insufficient in engagements in Somalia.
A lot of the idiots encountered at Somalia were juiced up on some drug- so shooting them did not do much unless it was a shot to the head- and even then, they could survive that with the right drug (Angel Dust, aka: PCP can do this). It did not matter where the idiot was shot at (other than a head shot, and even then...), when juiced up, they still kept on coming. I have seen more than my fair share of idiots in my time juiced up on who knows what. The results are:

Idiot on PCP - Tackles a Gasoline Tanker, and survives the resulting crash and explosion.
Another Idiot on PCP - Climbs out of elevator, derails it and fall 13 stories- and survives.
Idiot on LSD - Thought he could fly- takes a 15 story plunge off a building and survives. Dont ask how.. he did.
Idiot on Crack - Causes a Multi-car wreck, has a Compound broken leg fracture, but does not feel a thing- even after he tries to stand on said leg and the bone flies out the flesh and he falls to the floor with the bone sticking out of his leg, asking the police "Duh... What happened?!!"
Idiot on Cocaine - Drag racing his corvette, hits a parked car and ends up somersalting the corvette end over end over a NYC Lamppost (They are about 50ft high!). Car lands in its roof, and his head is cracked opened with full view of brains, but he says that he's OK... he dies 20 minutes later when his Cocaine driven high wears off.

And there is more...

I've not seen such stupid stuff happen, but I've seen drugs wreck families and IMHO the damn things should be banned.

By the way, the drug used in Somalia was khat, or qat. It's like speed, only stronger. They were doped so high that when they got shot, they felt no pain, didn't realize what just happened and carried on fighting. Nothing short of a hit on the spinal cord or brain would stop them. That really went against the doctrine at that time to aim for the centre of mass and put the combatant out of action by causing so much pain and grief.

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by Kiskaloo on Wed 24 Jun 2009 - 19:44

Yeah the British had that problem in Africa in the 1800s and so did the US in the Philippines in the early 1900s - too small caliber of bullet being ineffective at knocking down a drug-addled opponent.

So load .500 S&W Magnum or .600 Nitro in your revolver. No matter what they're on, they're going down when they're hit. head bang

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by Piero on Wed 24 Jun 2009 - 22:34

There's a school of thought in terminal ballistics that believes that kinetic energy is pretty much meaningless from a lethality standpoint. What matters is tissue destruction.

The reason 5.56mm lethality is so variable is partly because it is so dependent on fragmentation to do damage, and therefore bullet design and impact velocity are huge factors. About 2700 fps seems to be about the threshhold for US military FMJ ammunition to exhibit reliable fragmentation. In addition to this, the depth to whcih the bullet must penetrate before yawing enough to fragment is an issue, M855 has been criticised for requiring too much depth. The most lethal 5.56mm rounds are considered the heavy open tip match rounds, which have relatively low fragmentation threshold velocities, fragment shortly after impact, and have extra mass to fragment (on the negative side, they can be lacking in penetration when you need it). On the other side of the spectrum are some 5.56mm rounds that basically don't fragment at all, they've been compared to .22s as far as lethality is concerned.

As for the .32 NAA, you might be able to get half decent results with hollowpoints, but I seem to remember the .32NAA hollowpoint that expanded to 0.55 only penetrated to a little over two thirds of the FBI recommended minimum of 12 inchs during gelatin tests. Compare the expansion and penetration figures for that round to a good 9mm or .45 hollowpoint, and I think the larger calibres would probably blow it completely out of the water.

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by ElfenMagix on Wed 24 Jun 2009 - 23:30

Piero, you want this .32NAA webpage link.

Now, for its size, it is more than capable than larger guns.


Try to hide a Glock or a 1911, even most SiGs in the palm of your hand- you will have a difficult time with it. Anything in the 9mm, .45 or larger, you would not be able to hide it so easily. .25 and .22's yes, you can hide them but as man stoppers its highly doubltful that it would do much more than hurt the feelings of the person you just shot at.

Seriously, the Cor-Bon Hollow Point Ammunition (both the .25/.32 and the .32/.38) expands sooner (8 inches rather than 12 inches), which for me, is better. More body damage and higher take down advantage. Besides, how many people you know are 12 inches thick when facing you? Not that many, at least not with an overbearing wieght problem.

Also (taken from their website):
Has a Fuller Index of 62% One-Shot Stops, compared to (for example) the 380 ACP Federal 90gr. Hydra-Shok (53%).

A .38 is almost nearly identical to a 9mm in size and power. Furthermore this is a HydraShok, aka: a Hollowpoint. The .32NAA has a better One Shot Stops than a comparable 9mm hollowpoint? This shows that a 9mm does not blow the .32NAA out of the water, just the reverse is true. Compared to .45 stats, they are almost the same. At this point - concealability, better take down results, 6 or 10 shot magazines (I prefer 10 in my fanficts). Its only drawback is its oddball ammo. I'll take my chances with the .32NAA for missions and .45ACP for personal on my fanfict works.

Not trying to sell anyone to go get the gun, this is something personal to us all. But if its recommended by law enforcement as an excellent conceal weapon, that that is what I want for my OCs.

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by Piero on Wed 24 Jun 2009 - 23:54

9x17mm and 9x19mm may be similar in size, but they are very different in terms of velocity, which is an important factor when dealing with hollowpoints (a .357 Magnum has about the same initial bullet diameter as a 9mm, but significantly more propellant). I seem to remember reading of 9x19mm hollowpoints getting into the 0.65+ range for expansion. Keep in mind that the 9mm will be larger on entry then the .32 will be as well.

As for the FBI figures... I'll admit they don't always seem all that sensible. But when you consider issues like having to pass through clothing (particularly heavy clothing), hitting a bone, potentially having to shoot from an angle which isn't dead front, etc... there's probably reasons why they wanted some extra penetration.

Incidentally, a lot of people think there are good reasons not to trust the Fuller Index, but 9mm hollowpoints score way highter then the .32 NAA hollowpoint on it. The .32NAA hollowpoing score seems more in line with a 9mm FMJ round in terms of scoring on that index.

I won't deny the Guardian's small size, which is it's main advantage. And it does have quite a bite for something so tiny. But I think putting it on a level with larger handguns is overstating it's capabilities.

Incidentally, with regards to what all this research boils down to for my writing? Basically just that my characters generally choose something reasonably serious and then take the stance that in CQB, anything worth shooting is worth shooting multiple times.

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by LoC978 on Thu 25 Jun 2009 - 2:16

it's a nice ace-in-the-hole weapon, that's for sure, but you can get shallow, consistent expansion out of any heavy JHP round, with the right length barrel. Muzzle velocity plays a huge role there (my defense choice is currently a 230Gr .45 out of a 3" barrel).

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by ElfenMagix on Thu 25 Jun 2009 - 22:07

Though I will agree on LoC, guns and ammo are a personal choice. Period. I am a 1911 fanactic, and will admit it. But I will not stare down a gift gun down its barrel Evil

In an arguement with an Anti-Gun Nut, his words to me were, "Guns have no other function other than to kill another person with it." My arguement is "Guns are for self defense when you learn how to use it, just my 2nd degree martial arts black belt. I dont go around looking for fights, but when I get into a situation, I know I can get out of if if I have to fight a fair fight."

Now, handguns are primarily used for CQC with no more than 200ft of distance, and I would argue that 100ft would be a bit too far. At this point, it does not matter what range or fps/mps a particular ammo has coming out of a particular gun. If it can cover 200 ft to hit a target accurately that is all a gun and its ammo needs to do.

Now as to what caliber a person uses depends on the gun of their choice. That is all. Rarely is one going to go into a gun fight and start picking up guns from fallen victims and use them against various targets that are after him. One will use the gun of their choice. Ammo depends on the gun of their choice. Here we can argue semantics of fire power, velocity, and stopping power. What counts is that bullets will put holes into a body, how large those holes and the damage done in those holes. A .22 will not cause as much damage as a 9mm or a .45, but it can still kill when applied right.

Applying it right requires training. Even the most basic of training is better than no training. How to aim, use of the gun and the bullet path as an extension of the hand and arm, where to hit the target for a kill or a wound. If certain tactics do not work, immediately switch to another- ie: if hit in the chest twice and the target does not go down because they are wearing body amour, go for a head shot. Is it that simple.

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by Piero on Fri 26 Jun 2009 - 2:12

I'm aware that even a .22 can kill if properly placed. On the other hand, I think we both agree that something more substantial is preferable if your life is depending on a weapon.

My main argument with the .32 NAA is simply that the weapon's capabilities are being overstated. It might be potent for it's size, but it is simply not the equal to a larger handgun in terms of hitting power. Personally, I think the FBI minimum penetration depth has a good reason for existing (it was instituted due to an incident in which several people were killed and wounded by a suspect after a hollowpoint bullet passed through the suspect's arm and failed to penetrate very deeply into their torso afterwards) but if you ignore that... well, according to some of the reading I've done, a modern 115 grain 9mm Winchester Silvertip is capable of penetrating to 8.5 inchs with an expansion of 0.81 when fired into 'clothed' gelatin. That's admitedely not from a particularly credible source, but honestly, given that a 9x19mm hollowpoint is going to be larger and have more force driving it, it's capabilities darn well should eclipse those of the .32 NAA round. And that's not even touching some of the more powerful calibres.

I also tend to advocate 9x19mm for GSG characters largely because of the setting. 9x19mm is pretty much the de facto police/service pistol round in many parts of Europe, and it's not looked down upon in Europe the way it is in the US. It's what pretty much any character with a background in Western European military or LE would view as 'standard.' Of course, this is somewhat background dependent, your character at least has the excuse of being American, though I find the idea of trusting .32 NAA but not 9x19mm kind of odd.

As for the whole 'firing multiple times' thing... the characters I write often get involved in close range firefights against opponents with automatic weapons. In that situation, it's not just about killing the other guy, it's about putting him down fast enough to ensure that he doesn't get a chance to land a lethal hit on you in return. Hence the approach of 'anything worth shooting once is worth shooting multiple times.' Even high powered weapons can't reliably stop a person in a single shot unless the shot placement is exceptional.

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 26 Jun 2009 - 11:41

@Piero wrote:Even high powered weapons can't reliably stop a person in a single shot unless the shot placement is exceptional.

These are Gunslinger Girls. Every shot should be exceptional. Wink

For me, it depends on the situation and the scenario. If Kara or Claes are using an automatic pistol or PDW, I prefer three-round burst mode into the center mass (chest). But if they're using single-shot pistols or rifles, then it's always a clean shot to the head (because they're always close enough to not miss).

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by boomer_gonz on Fri 26 Jun 2009 - 15:00

@Piero wrote:I'm aware that even a .22 can kill if properly placed.

LOLZ @ Mafia Hitz/Whakz

@Piero wrote:
9x19mm is pretty much the de facto police/service pistol round in many parts of Europe, and it's not looked down upon in Europe the way it is in the US.

This is too true. I don't know why us stoopit 'Mericunz look so down on the 9x19. Maybe their confusing it wit the 9x18 Mak, I dunno.

I shooting in Arizona with an old buddy and I saw this one guy with an AR-15 converted to 9x19 from 5.56 and he said he loved the conversion. Less recoil and no need for a forward assist greatly increased his versatility with the weapon. He merely hoped that they would let him keep it when he was re-deployed in the sandbox.

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by ElfenMagix on Fri 26 Jun 2009 - 18:54

@Kiskaloo wrote:These are Gunslinger Girls. Every shot should be exceptional. Wink

For me, it depends on the situation and the scenario. If Kara or Claes are using an automatic pistol or PDW, I prefer three-round burst mode into the center mass (chest). But if they're using single-shot pistols or rifles, then it's always a clean shot to the head (because they're always close enough to not miss).
I agree with the first part 110%!
I also agree on the second part, because its always a clean shot because they are too close not to miss. In my OCs case stated time and time again- Head shots become the rule for all mission targets when it is found that the first set did not down down on the first and second body shots. On this, Rachel is ruthless- aiming for 2cm above the eyebrows, where hit to the frontal lobe will be guarenteed. Fernando wil be more selective on his targeting- including hitting the fleshy part above Adam's Apple, where the bullet will find the Thorasic Spinal column and either kill or complete paralyzed the target from the shoulders down. He also goes for head shots on a whim. And if he dont like you, .45 caliber castrations may follow.

My point is- guns are a personal choice. Picking out certain guns- out of the box you are stuck with certain ammo. Now if you want to modify your guns- thats on you, but you still need to explain in detail what those mods are and how they work best for you. You also need to know what failures may incur as per the mods' limitations. In my OCs' history- the .32NAAs had failed once (luckily in target practice) and the .45s have yet to fail (yet). My OCs guns are stock out of the box with no mods to it or the ammo it uses (Not counting the DU .45 rounds and its separate 1911 gun). They are the guns I use for my OCs and I personally owned a .45 AA and a few other agency guns, so I know how they will behave in given situations. Thats why I choose them... personal choice.

I'm not agruing numbers here. Nor am I stating that the 9mm is crap. As a .45ACP Fanatic I could state fact after fact how bad the 9mm is, but I'm respectful of the 9mm as I am with all other firearms and their ammo. I am stating that I chose the .32NAA for my OCs for the given reasons stated above: Easy to conceal, Deadly in a small size, and easy to maintain. The oddball ammo is its only draw back and in my stories, I have that covered as for a supplier too. So all my bases are covered.

Now, a GsG should be smart enough to take her gun and know everything about it, and field strip it for maintenance and cleaning. My OCs have done that in my stories, I dont make assumptions, guestimations or educhances on "pick up gun and soot and kill target." statements. I sit down and figure out how a gun fight would happen, where targets would be or come from, and go for weak points and exploit them- like a real GsG would.

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by Piero on Sat 27 Jun 2009 - 2:34

When I say exceptional, I mean exceptional. People have been shot through the heart with high powered rifles and continued fighting long enough to return fire. A central nervous system hit can take a person out of a fight pretty much immediately, but good luck trying to reliably achieve those in a fast moving gun battle.

I don't believe I ever advocated a lot of scrounging around a lot for other weapons on the battlefield, nor have I ever recommended not preplanning and knowing how to handle your weapons properly or what they're capable of.

As for the .32 NAA, well... I doubt your looking at it this way, but I sometimes feel like you're treating it as if it's a magic bullet. The 9x19mm is extremely common, and as such there's a lot of crappy ammunition out there for it. There's also some seriously potent stuff that has been performed well in actual combat. It has a larger bullet with more force behind it then the .32 NAA does, and with the proper ammunition, it will significantly outperform the smaller round in pretty much any area you care to name, be it penetration, expansion, energy transfer, or all three combined.

It's probably not really a big deal to treat the .32 NAA as a somewhat capable weapon, but treating the .32 NAA as a capable weapon while holding something like a SiG P239 in contempt it a bit silly I think. About the only advantage the .32 NAA has is that it happens to be even more compact then the P239 happens to be.

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by Piero on Sat 27 Jun 2009 - 21:39

I'm going to act a bit pre-emptively here based on what I saw when scrolling up in the chat.

I never intended this as a 9mm vs. .45 debate. Both of those are considered to be adequate rounds with the right ammunition. With those two, it's basically a matter of whether the shooter prefers more damage potential per bullet or a higher ammunition capacity and easier rapid fire. (Well, okay, there's the issue of whether good 9x19mm ammunition is available, and whether .45 ammo is available at all, and such, but let's not overcomplicate things.) Most of the fictional characters I write use 9mms because that's what makes sense given their backgrounds.

The .32NAA is a different story in my mind however. There was once a meeting between a large group of experts (law enforcement trainers, people with experience studying wounds, etc.) relating to handgun effectiveness. Their conclusion: they agreed unanimously that the most critical factor with a handgun's potential effectiveness is having adequate penetration to reach the vital organs. After that's achieved, then one can worry about bullet size (see the 9mm vs. .45 debate for instance). The FBI 12 inch minimum was set for some very good reasons based on what was required to effectively reach vital parts of the body with certain types of hits. The .32 NAA, when using that particular hollowpoint, barely achieves 2/3rds of this standard, so I think it's capabilities, while impressive for such a small pistol, are questionable. In fact, that particular group of experts would probably opt to load a gun chambered in that calibre with FMJ ammunition over that particular hollowpoint design.

One major point of consideration here -handguns don't actually have enough energy to do really serious damage through energy transfer. A lot of people will, for psychological reasons, give up when they perceive that they have been shot, but if they don't, it won't matter whether the round was a .22 or a .45 from an energy transfer standpoint, because neither one will actually transfer very much energy. Wound profile is another matter, of course.

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 27 Jun 2009 - 21:54

The 9mm is not a godsend round either. Many experts consider it as a Defensive Round. "It will do its part, if you do yours..." This is a major reason why the law enforcement here in the states, starting with the FBI and trickling down to the local police, is slowly migrating back to the .45ACP round, and many to the 1911. Like the USA's experiment on adopting The Metric Measuring System in the 1970s/80s, using the 9mm in law enforcement for many was a nice experiement. Some will stay with it, others wont. They choice is theirs.

Again, there is that funny word: Choice.

Many who used the .32NAA loved it.
Currently there is one source for its ammo, but they will be licencing it out to others soon.
Most who used the .32NAA are in law enforecment, and most of them also use the .45 and not the 9mm. Their reviews on 'Guns and Ammo", "Rifle & Handgun", and other gun magazines, have stated so. They swear by the gun for its performance, durability, and ease of one. Of all the reviews I read, the one complaint I ever heard was the trigger pull being a bit to hard (10 pounds). As far as I remember, 10 pounds is the standard trigger pull on many guns, and you can get a competitant gunsmith to lighten it if you needed to.

Again- its choice. I like the .45ACP and the .32NAA rounds, and their repsected guns- the 1911 and the 32NAA. I'll give the 9mm the due respect it deserves but peronally I would not want it even if my life depended on it. I know many here like the 9mm, and I respect that. But dont trod upon my wants and beliefs because I'm not agreeing with you. I'm not doing that to you, dont do it to me.

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 27 Jun 2009 - 21:57

I thought most US Law Enforcement Agencies use .40S&W.

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 27 Jun 2009 - 22:12

I got nothing to hide...

Chat Room logs wrote:[00:55:52 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : Hi-Hi Kisk!!

[00:56:21 28/06/09] @ ElfenMagix : yo Boomer!!!

[00:56:34 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : Hi-Hi Elfen!!

[00:57:32 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : Kisk-Question?

[00:57:35 28/06/09] sasahara17 : Anyone looking forward to that GI Joe movie? I'm really not sure about that one.

[00:57:38 28/06/09] * ElfenMagix shakes his head at Piero's responce on Wepaons Stretched to their Limits thread...

[00:57:58 28/06/09] @ ElfenMagix : I would have to think about it, Sasahara

[00:58:18 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : No Lady Jane = Me waits 4 DVD

[00:58:47 28/06/09] @ ElfenMagix : good point, Boomer

[00:58:50 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : Elfen-Personally I like the 9x19.

[00:59:07 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : But I think he REALLY likes the 9x19.

[00:59:33 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : As in...

[00:59:40 28/06/09] * boomer_gonz clears throat

[00:59:49 28/06/09] @ ElfenMagix : I understand that, Boomer. but I think I will have to get 1911 Fanactal fundemental extremist on him.

[01:00:00 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : Piero: The 9x19 is da greatest ammo evar!!

[01:00:15 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : Ah.

[01:00:31 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : Bringing up the Browning era?

[01:00:36 28/06/09] @ ElfenMagix : Fanactal = Fanatical...

[01:00:46 28/06/09] @ ElfenMagix : I may have too Evil

[01:01:07 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : Kisk-Question!

[01:01:19 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : LOLZ @ fanaticism

[01:01:39 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : Hi-Hi GG!!

[01:01:39 28/06/09] Ggultra2764 : Hi folks

[01:02:05 28/06/09] @ ElfenMagix : I used to have a playboy article on .45 vs 9mm (cira 1977). The arguements were valid, but I like the cartoon best:

[01:02:33 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : LOLZ

[01:02:41 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : Any images? Evil

[01:03:13 28/06/09] sasahara17 : Hey Piero!

[01:03:14 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : Hi-Hi Piero!!

[01:03:21 28/06/09] sasahara17 : Hey Ggultra!

[01:03:27 28/06/09] * boomer_gonz takes shelter

[01:03:30 28/06/09] @ ElfenMagix : 1 big mutha-f'er holding a .45 1911 to the forehead of a peep squeak holding the 9mm to the mutha f'er's chest. The peep squeak was the one that was sweating.

[01:03:40 28/06/09] @ ElfenMagix : hello Piero.

[01:03:57 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : LOLZ

[01:04:01 28/06/09] @ Kiskaloo : Yes, Boomer?

[01:04:07 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : That's awesomez!!

[01:04:11 28/06/09] @ Kiskaloo : I might see GI Joe in the theater, but probably DVD that one, too.

[01:04:33 28/06/09] @ boomer_gonz : Kisk-What is your stance on dry humping?

[01:04:36 28/06/09] sasahara17 : @ Kisk, you really aren't one for the theatres are you Kisk?

[01:04:46 28/06/09] @ ElfenMagix : unless my cousins stole it, I should still have it somewhere

Again, this is a matter of choice.
But I have to ask you this- have you ever fired any sort of weapon?

In the past, you have answered 'No.' and added reasons about living in Canada and the laws there.

My answer to the same questions is yes- including the .45, .38, .32, .25, .22, many rifles and shotguns, and some historical items that won the west. I, my friends and family have owned guns, rifles and shotguns for as far as I can remember, and when I get my finances back in order, will get a firearm in my life again. I know what it takes to own a firearm and use it. I know that numbers mean squat when you have to make a decision in pulling that trigger when you have to save a life or end a crime in progress. I know that within a certain distance, where to aim and whoat areas to hit to kill or to keep the bastard alive for questioning later. And finally, I know what is the capability of the gun in my hands, its limitations and its flaws. I am not some young punk who picks up the fire arm and is told to point it to a general direction and pull the trigger indiscriminately- spray and pray. I have shot on the range, for the job and for defense- and those will be the only reasons why I will ever pull the trigger again. I dont make excuses about what I know because I know through experience, not researching things to death. The choices I make is based on those decisions.

There's that funny word again: Choice.

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 27 Jun 2009 - 22:17

@Kiskaloo wrote:I thought most US Law Enforcement Agencies use .40S&W.
Most law enforcement agencies are going back to what worked well with them. The 9mm experiment is over for much of them, but it still continues with others.
The FBI, The Marines, Special OPs, and others are heading back to the .45ACP and the 1911 (S&W version of it) as far as I was told.

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by MikhailN on Sat 27 Jun 2009 - 23:23

@ElfenMagix wrote:I know that numbers mean squat when you have to make a decision in pulling that trigger when you have to save a life or end a crime in progress. I know that within a certain distance, where to aim and whoat areas to hit to kill or to keep the bastard alive for questioning later. And finally, I know what is the capability of the gun in my hands, its limitations and its flaws. I am not some young punk who picks up the fire arm and is told to point it to a general direction and pull the trigger indiscriminately- spray and pray. I have shot on the range, for the job and for defense- and those will be the only reasons why I will ever pull the trigger again. I dont make excuses about what I know because I know through experience, not researching things to death. The choices I make is based on those decisions.

I quoted this simply because I like it and though my experience with handguns is limited to the Sig Sauer P226, I understand what you mean and can empathize.

Most of the time personal arms are chosen based on experience. Personal feel is that as long as the operator knows what the thing in his hand can do for him when munitions are flying then it's ok. The last thing you want is to bring some MP5 chambered for 9mm to counter-snipe some chap one-on-one 500yards away with an AI AWP. You'll die wondering why your rounds didn't kill him.

Since most of the time (esp. in the armed forces and police department) weapons are standard-issued, then you'll have to take a look at their "doctrine" and what they emphasize on. Examples include the US military where they assume that a 'hit' would put the combatant out of action and hence the choice for the easier to handle 5.56mm; or certain agencies in countries where Hollow-Point rounds are banned and hence need to use Hydra-Shok rounds.

My bottom line: Whatever floats your boat and gets you home alive

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by ElfenMagix on Sat 27 Jun 2009 - 23:48

MikhailN- Good

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

Post by Piero on Sun 28 Jun 2009 - 0:36

Well, I'll admit that even I sometimes get the impression that the degree to which my research outstrips my hands on experience is a bit ridiculous. Laughing And I'm certainly not going to try to argue that I'm qualified to handle a handgun in combat.

Anyhow, I still think some of the things I dredged up come from credible enough sources to have some merit (the FBI standard on penetration, for instance) but I've come to the realisation that I've probably debated something way past the point I should have... again. I have a bad habit of doing that it seems.

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Re: Weapons stretched to the limits

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