Difference of M16 & AK-47

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by emperor on Mon 18 Aug 2008 - 2:15

avatar
emperor

Male

Forum Posts : 1637

Location : Bangkok,Thailand

Fan of : Henrietta,Black Lagoon,Jormungund

Original Characters : Rosetta,Devil baby

Comments : Be creative,baby!!

Registration date : 2007-09-09
Your character
OC genger:

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Guest on Mon 18 Aug 2008 - 4:52

Cool.

But another difference to note is how bitchy it is to clean the M16, compare to the AK-47. The jungle conditions in Vietnam really kicks the AK-47 up and kills the M16's reliability almost entirely...

...speaking of which that's an M16A1 they're using, right? Or...the earliest M16A1 without the charger.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by LoC978 on Mon 18 Aug 2008 - 8:27

panzer wrote:But another difference to note is how bitchy it is to clean the M16, compare to the AK-47.
... actually, kalashnikovs are kind of a pain in the ass to clean:



-the advantage to it is that you don't have to clean it very often.


the Colt AR series is comparatively simple to clean:



-the famous disadvantage being that you have to do this constantly to keep the rifle in working order.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Moderatio est figmentum.
avatar
LoC978
Beach Bum Revolutionary

Male

Forum Posts : 2628

Location : Northwestern USA. Usually Portland.

Fan of : At home- Claes. Abroad- Rico.

Registration date : 2007-09-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Guest on Mon 18 Aug 2008 - 11:41

Hmm...

Yep, can't argue on that. Still it does conclude something: NEVER take an M16 into the jungle (or anywhere where very-very muddy). Expect yourself equipped with a handgun by the end of the day :p

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Guest on Wed 20 Aug 2008 - 12:34

Panzer IV wrote:Hmm...

Yep, can't argue on that. Still it does conclude something: NEVER take an M16 into the jungle (or anywhere where very-very muddy). Expect yourself equipped with a handgun by the end of the day :p

Preferably NOT a M9 pistol.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by LoC978 on Thu 21 Aug 2008 - 23:35

Indeeds. If you're out in the jungle with nothin but a handgun, make certain it's one of these.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Moderatio est figmentum.
avatar
LoC978
Beach Bum Revolutionary

Male

Forum Posts : 2628

Location : Northwestern USA. Usually Portland.

Fan of : At home- Claes. Abroad- Rico.

Registration date : 2007-09-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Piero on Fri 22 Aug 2008 - 2:56

Hey LOC, was wondering if I could get an opinion on this -one shooter had suggested the AR-15 reliability issues actually had more to do with the bolt carrier (I think that was the part mentioned) being too light for the amount of surface area it had then the basic principle of the operating system. Another user I think suggested it had to do with the location of a port used to vent gas.

I'm also under the impression that the AR-15 mags have actually been one of the major problems with the design...

I find such suggestions interesting because the French MAS-49 rifle apparently used a system supposedly similar in principle to that of the AR-15 and was apparently a very durable weapon (wikipedia states that it could be cleaned with rags and motor oil). Heck, the original AR-10 apparently received excellent feedback from the small number of users that fielded it, and I believe some of them used it in Africa.

Any thoughts? Or do you know enough about this issue to be able to comment?

Piero

Male

Forum Posts : 2617

Fan of : Full Metal Panic, Macross Frontier, Mai-HiME

Original Characters : Diana and Piero

Registration date : 2008-01-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by LoC978 on Fri 22 Aug 2008 - 8:59

from what I've seen, the AR-15 series usually jams due to either carbon buildup down inside the bolt carrier (where the bolt goes into it. that little ridge is the hardest thing on the rifle to clean), or a busted extractor. not sure about it being 'too light'... I've never had a clean AR with a good extractor jam on me (though I have experienced the 'pop and no kick' of dud ammo twice). But maybe I'm just special.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Moderatio est figmentum.
avatar
LoC978
Beach Bum Revolutionary

Male

Forum Posts : 2628

Location : Northwestern USA. Usually Portland.

Fan of : At home- Claes. Abroad- Rico.

Registration date : 2007-09-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Awinnell on Fri 22 Aug 2008 - 11:53


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


We are living in the smelly cloud of gods fart,one day the universe will end in a great cloud of airfreshener
avatar
Awinnell
Stiff Upper Lip

Male

Forum Posts : 2131

Location : Hereford,England

Fan of : Triela,asuka

Original Characters : not yet

Comments : Loves to quote Wikipedia. Loves to use exclamation marks even more.

wish i knew who put that in there, it wasn't me !!!!!!!!!!!!


Registration date : 2008-05-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Guest on Fri 22 Aug 2008 - 13:23

Woah...

That statistics bar, is it the greater it is the better?

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Awinnell on Fri 22 Aug 2008 - 13:34

Panzer IV wrote:Woah...

That statistics bar, is it the greater it is the better?

no the greater the worse, of 60,000 rounds fired the M4 jammed 882 times,the XM8 only jammed 127 times

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


We are living in the smelly cloud of gods fart,one day the universe will end in a great cloud of airfreshener
avatar
Awinnell
Stiff Upper Lip

Male

Forum Posts : 2131

Location : Hereford,England

Fan of : Triela,asuka

Original Characters : not yet

Comments : Loves to quote Wikipedia. Loves to use exclamation marks even more.

wish i knew who put that in there, it wasn't me !!!!!!!!!!!!


Registration date : 2008-05-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Awinnell on Fri 22 Aug 2008 - 13:44


Weapons officials at the Army Test and Evaluation Command at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Md., exposed Colt Defense M4, along with the Heckler & Koch XM8, FNH USA Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle and the H&K 416 to sandstorm conditions from late September to late November, firing 6,000 rounds through each test weapon.
When the test was completed, ATEC officials found that the M4 performed significantly worse than the other three weapons, sources told Army Times.
Officials tested 10 each of the four carbine models, firing a total of 60,000 rounds per model. Heres how they ranked, according to the total number of times each model stopped firing:
* XM8: 127 stoppages.
* MK16 SCAR Light: 226 stoppages.
* 416: 233 stoppages.
* M4: 882 stoppages.
The results of the test were a wake-up call,but Army officials continue to stand by the current carbine, said Brig. Gen. Mark Brown, commander of Program Executive Office Soldier, the command that is responsible for equipping soldiers.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


We are living in the smelly cloud of gods fart,one day the universe will end in a great cloud of airfreshener
avatar
Awinnell
Stiff Upper Lip

Male

Forum Posts : 2131

Location : Hereford,England

Fan of : Triela,asuka

Original Characters : not yet

Comments : Loves to quote Wikipedia. Loves to use exclamation marks even more.

wish i knew who put that in there, it wasn't me !!!!!!!!!!!!


Registration date : 2008-05-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by LoC978 on Fri 22 Aug 2008 - 23:32

I really think they just stick with the simplest, easiest to field-strip weapons they can find. Any idiot can operate and maintain an M4 or an M9... and any idiot is who they want to do their killing for them.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Moderatio est figmentum.
avatar
LoC978
Beach Bum Revolutionary

Male

Forum Posts : 2628

Location : Northwestern USA. Usually Portland.

Fan of : At home- Claes. Abroad- Rico.

Registration date : 2007-09-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Guest on Sat 23 Aug 2008 - 7:23

But I feel they should replace the old M4 and M16 with the XM8.

I can't imagine seeing a US soldier or Marine fighting 20 years from now and still sing the M16 series...

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 23 Aug 2008 - 7:28

Your imagination's running wild, Panzer. Ten years? Maybe. But twenty? Nah.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------





There may be no peace for the wicked, but the righteous can damn well get a piece whenever they feel like it.
avatar
Nachtsider
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD

Male

Forum Posts : 5718

Location : Inside your closet. In your head.

Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated

Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus

Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.

Registration date : 2007-09-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by LoC978 on Sat 23 Aug 2008 - 9:13

Colt will probably make a carbine that holds 50 caseless rounds and takes 4 seconds to field strip by then.
...but it'll most likely still look like an M4.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Moderatio est figmentum.
avatar
LoC978
Beach Bum Revolutionary

Male

Forum Posts : 2628

Location : Northwestern USA. Usually Portland.

Fan of : At home- Claes. Abroad- Rico.

Registration date : 2007-09-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Wileama on Sat 23 Aug 2008 - 15:50

You think casesless ammo will every actually catch on?

You know what I think would be really cool, if this whole concept of lugging around two upper recievers where to become more common place. Especially ones like the shrike 5.56

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Strive for your next breath.  Believe that with it you can do more than with the last one.  Use your breath to power your capacities: capacity to kill, to maim, to destroy.

T-Minus 15.193792102158E+9 years until the universe closes!

Marathon
avatar
Wileama
Sith Lord

Male

Forum Posts : 1053

Fan of : Triela

Original Characters : Marcello

Comments : Everybody's favorite crew chief. Without him, the flyboys are powerless.

Registration date : 2007-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by LoC978 on Sat 23 Aug 2008 - 22:49

Awesome!
I think I like that more than the ol' minimi... and I've always considered the minimi to be the 5.56NATO's one saving grace...

still, even though I think you're right about caseless ammo, I also think it should be the wave of the future. 100% disposable reloads with no casing and no mags left behind would be the shizzle (plus, almost all rifle jams involve a casing. no brass=almost no jams).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Moderatio est figmentum.
avatar
LoC978
Beach Bum Revolutionary

Male

Forum Posts : 2628

Location : Northwestern USA. Usually Portland.

Fan of : At home- Claes. Abroad- Rico.

Registration date : 2007-09-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Wileama on Wed 27 Aug 2008 - 14:13

Yeah, but no brass means no disposable heat sinks. You want to go back to water cooled MGs, or worse yet water cooled rifles. So what if you save weight on the ammo if you have to start lugging around coolant too...

Caseless ammo is definitely cool, but major technical challenges remain in my opinion.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Strive for your next breath.  Believe that with it you can do more than with the last one.  Use your breath to power your capacities: capacity to kill, to maim, to destroy.

T-Minus 15.193792102158E+9 years until the universe closes!

Marathon
avatar
Wileama
Sith Lord

Male

Forum Posts : 1053

Fan of : Triela

Original Characters : Marcello

Comments : Everybody's favorite crew chief. Without him, the flyboys are powerless.

Registration date : 2007-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by LoC978 on Wed 27 Aug 2008 - 15:09

yeah, I guess rapid fire would be out... unless you made all the components outta something with an astronomically high melting point and put on massive heat shrouds.

...I guess I was thinking more of a marksman's weapon that you only have to reload once a month.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Moderatio est figmentum.
avatar
LoC978
Beach Bum Revolutionary

Male

Forum Posts : 2628

Location : Northwestern USA. Usually Portland.

Fan of : At home- Claes. Abroad- Rico.

Registration date : 2007-09-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Wileama on Wed 27 Aug 2008 - 17:09

Even if the gun doesn't melt, and the ammo doesn't cook off I'm not handling in my two hands that can set the grass on fire. Heat shrouds, or no.

Thought: What if you designed the bullet to absorb the heat the casing did? It might not be a terribly effective bullet then, but you would get caseless ammo that would be more practically viable...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Strive for your next breath.  Believe that with it you can do more than with the last one.  Use your breath to power your capacities: capacity to kill, to maim, to destroy.

T-Minus 15.193792102158E+9 years until the universe closes!

Marathon
avatar
Wileama
Sith Lord

Male

Forum Posts : 1053

Fan of : Triela

Original Characters : Marcello

Comments : Everybody's favorite crew chief. Without him, the flyboys are powerless.

Registration date : 2007-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by LoC978 on Wed 27 Aug 2008 - 19:54

if it somehow absorbed all that heat, the bullet would be practicallt incendiary... and if it were also made of something with an astronomically high melting point... it could just... work!

^
|
operative word is 'somehow'

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Moderatio est figmentum.
avatar
LoC978
Beach Bum Revolutionary

Male

Forum Posts : 2628

Location : Northwestern USA. Usually Portland.

Fan of : At home- Claes. Abroad- Rico.

Registration date : 2007-09-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Wileama on Fri 29 Aug 2008 - 13:16

Any material that absorbs that much heat that quickly probably doesn't have the right qualities to have good penetrating power. Of course you could try to put particles of brass in the gunpowder, but that would probably make the powder less effective.

Am I the only one who know has the urge to go out, and build something right now?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Strive for your next breath.  Believe that with it you can do more than with the last one.  Use your breath to power your capacities: capacity to kill, to maim, to destroy.

T-Minus 15.193792102158E+9 years until the universe closes!

Marathon
avatar
Wileama
Sith Lord

Male

Forum Posts : 1053

Fan of : Triela

Original Characters : Marcello

Comments : Everybody's favorite crew chief. Without him, the flyboys are powerless.

Registration date : 2007-09-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Awinnell on Fri 29 Aug 2008 - 13:51

you wouldn't need to make the entire bullet from it only the base of the bullet the minie round from the old muzzle loaders had an iron base so if you gave your caseless round a metal base you get your heat sink !

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


We are living in the smelly cloud of gods fart,one day the universe will end in a great cloud of airfreshener
avatar
Awinnell
Stiff Upper Lip

Male

Forum Posts : 2131

Location : Hereford,England

Fan of : Triela,asuka

Original Characters : not yet

Comments : Loves to quote Wikipedia. Loves to use exclamation marks even more.

wish i knew who put that in there, it wasn't me !!!!!!!!!!!!


Registration date : 2008-05-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by LoC978 on Fri 29 Aug 2008 - 14:00

I guess large caliber AP rounds would do the trick.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Moderatio est figmentum.
avatar
LoC978
Beach Bum Revolutionary

Male

Forum Posts : 2628

Location : Northwestern USA. Usually Portland.

Fan of : At home- Claes. Abroad- Rico.

Registration date : 2007-09-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Guest on Fri 28 Nov 2008 - 10:13

What i dont understand is why people tend to compare the AKM or ak47 with the M16a2 of all models. It's not like they're even close to the same generation of assault rifles.

If you want a more accurate comparison, stick to the AK-74m vs the m16a2

Compare any newer models to the Ak100 series etc.

Edit: yeah in the video it was a first generation m16 by the looks of it. But i was speaking in general terms

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by emperor on Fri 28 Nov 2008 - 11:07

Pinnochioaintwoody wrote:What i dont understand is why people tend to compare the AKM or ak47 with the M16a2 of all models. It's not like they're even close to the same generation of assault rifles.

If you want a more accurate comparison, stick to the AK-74m vs the m16a2

Compare any newer models to the Ak100 series etc.

Edit: yeah in the video it was a first generation m16 by the looks of it. But i was speaking in general terms

Good point! It should be like you said AK-100 compare with M16A2,right?

Cheers!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://on.fb.me/9tuZOK Facebook Page for Cyborg Central : Gunslinger Girl Forum cheers
avatar
emperor

Male

Forum Posts : 1637

Location : Bangkok,Thailand

Fan of : Henrietta,Black Lagoon,Jormungund

Original Characters : Rosetta,Devil baby

Comments : Be creative,baby!!

Registration date : 2007-09-09
Your character
OC genger:

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Kiskaloo on Fri 28 Nov 2008 - 11:42

Pinnochioaintwoody wrote:What i dont understand is why people tend to compare the AKM or ak47 with the M16a2 of all models.

I imagine it is because both are the guns most familiar to people in the West. The M-16 is "our" gun and the AK-47 is "their" gun.
avatar
Kiskaloo
A Cat of Many Talents

Male

Forum Posts : 10901

Location : Seattle / Tokyo / Milan

Fan of : Angelica's Smile

Original Characters : Kara Michelle

Comments : The community's international man of mystery.

Registration date : 2008-09-11

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by LoC978 on Fri 28 Nov 2008 - 14:05

pretty much. those have been the most commonly referenced rifles on opposite sides of large-scale conflicts since the early 90s.

...and your complaint is pretty much why I didn't reference them specifically. think of this thread as Kalashnikov series vs. Colt AR series.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Moderatio est figmentum.
avatar
LoC978
Beach Bum Revolutionary

Male

Forum Posts : 2628

Location : Northwestern USA. Usually Portland.

Fan of : At home- Claes. Abroad- Rico.

Registration date : 2007-09-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Piero on Fri 28 Nov 2008 - 15:25

You know, it often seems to me that the issues with the Kalshnikov are largely ammunition dependent. 7.62x39mm's poor velocity gives it range issues, and as I understand it 5.45x39mm isn't the best round for dropping people quickly (as where a lot of 5.56mm rounds have that nasty fragmentation property). Actually, neither is some 7.62x39mm ammunition for that matter, in spite of the AK-47s reputation. (Though it should be noted that the body counts the two rounds have racked up should show that 'less then ideal' is not the same as 'not capable.' Not by a long shot.)

I suspect the modern 5.56x45mm AKs that were designed for export can be quite capable weapons. Modern materials mean they're not to heavy (heck, as I understand it a lot of AKMs weren't even all that bad in the weight department), and the 5.56mm round should give them decent long range accuracy and close range lethality.

Also, I should note that the SiG SG series are very similar to AKs internally and are among the most accurate assault rifles out there. They're heavy and expensive though.

The big advantage of the AR series is pretty much modularity and weight, as I understand it. Especially with all the acessories people mount on rifles these days, the ability to keep the weight of the base weapon low is a significant plus. They're very accurate as well, although that's not as much of an issue for an assault rifle as it is with some other weapons.

Piero

Male

Forum Posts : 2617

Fan of : Full Metal Panic, Macross Frontier, Mai-HiME

Original Characters : Diana and Piero

Registration date : 2008-01-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by maverick375 on Fri 20 Mar 2009 - 6:39

Personally, I think new offerings in piston-powered AR uppers and the various calibers availiable (6.8, 308, 338 Lapua) will eventually be implemented into the military arsenal before they switch platforms entirely. The AR structural design is sound, but the problems have always been in the gas system and magazines. The newer mags are as perfect as mil-spec mags can be, so if they change to the piston gas systems, it will be as reliable as currently possible.

Just my thoughts.
avatar
maverick375

Male

Forum Posts : 823

Location : Ohio

Fan of : manga

Original Characters : Jamie

Comments : GUNS!!!! MUWAHAHA

Oh, and swords. Swords are kewl too.

Registration date : 2009-03-20

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by tsundere9kagami2 on Fri 20 Mar 2009 - 10:39

Im just sick of everyone dissing on our gun (our being US)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I'm actually a hardcore otaku who likes maids more than having three meals in a day and I only read books related to maids. Also, I only visit maid cafes. Of course I also collect maid figurines, I play games which feature maids and it turns me on so much that I'll wear the maid uniforms and jump in joy.
avatar
tsundere9kagami2
Oceanic Drifting

Male

Forum Posts : 1069

Fan of : Moe~

Original Characters : youru kun

Registration date : 2008-07-12

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 20 Mar 2009 - 16:48

Hey, I liek the M16A1 and and the M4A1.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------





There may be no peace for the wicked, but the righteous can damn well get a piece whenever they feel like it.
avatar
Nachtsider
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD

Male

Forum Posts : 5718

Location : Inside your closet. In your head.

Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated

Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus

Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.

Registration date : 2007-09-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by kamajii on Fri 20 Mar 2009 - 17:11

@Piero wrote:
The big advantage of the AR series is pretty much modularity and weight, as I understand it.
AK-107 - 3.4 kg, M16A2 - 3.7 kg,
AK-105 - 3.0 kg, M4 - 2.5 kg

Modularity? Well, we have light assault rifle AK, sniper rifle SVD, light machine gun RPK, civil rifle Saiga, underwater assault rifle ASM. All of this based on design of AK. What's about modularity? Wink

@Piero wrote: They're very accurate as well, although that's not as much of an issue for an assault rifle as it is with some other weapons.
I agreed that AR has more accuracy than AK. But what is more significient on the battlefield - accuracy or reliability? For close combat on the streets (20-100 meters range) and automatic firing difference in accuracy is small. For long ranges and marksmans we have SVD.

kamajii

Male

Forum Posts : 85

Location : Ukraine, Kharkov

Fan of : Petra

Original Characters : none

Registration date : 2008-04-26

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by LoC978 on Fri 20 Mar 2009 - 17:42

@kamajii wrote:
@Piero wrote:
The big advantage of the AR series is pretty much modularity and weight, as I understand it.
AK-107 - 3.4 kg, M16A2 - 3.7 kg,
AK-105 - 3.0 kg, M4 - 2.5 kg

Modularity? Well, we have light assault rifle AK, sniper rifle SVD, light machine gun RPK, civil rifle Saiga, underwater assault rifle ASM. All of this based on design of AK. What's about modularity? Wink
each of those is a different weapon. you can't just swap a single part and have a new weapon the way you can on the AR platform (seriously, it takes no tools and about 10 seconds to swap upper receivers, potentially going from a 5.56 battle rifle to a .50 Beowulf, or to a belt-fed shrike LMG. You'll never hear of those things used, but if the ex spec-ops guys I used to know are to be believed...)
so yeah, modularity and accuracy. and I agree wholeheartedly that the AK series makes for much better urban combat weapons... I'll take an AK103 over an M4 any day for clearing rooms... but y'know what's better than any damned assault rifle for urban combat? A modern submachine gun (the FN P90 and H&K MP7 spring instantly to mind).
The AR platform is a great design for one thing, and its what our basic American forces do more than anything else: guarding convoys. Even the most idiotic of our infantrymen can hit a human silhouette at 300m from the back of a moving truck with his M4 if he expends two or three rounds.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Moderatio est figmentum.
avatar
LoC978
Beach Bum Revolutionary

Male

Forum Posts : 2628

Location : Northwestern USA. Usually Portland.

Fan of : At home- Claes. Abroad- Rico.

Registration date : 2007-09-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Piero on Fri 20 Mar 2009 - 18:51

Actually, the modularity comment was a reference to the ease of mounting accessories on it. A flat top AR with a quad rail handguard is very versatile, and given how big a difference modern optics and such can make when it comes to identifying and engaging targets quickly that's important. Now, other weapons can take those accessories, but it's often not as simple, and they're often heavier to begin with. The AR-15s light weight might not have been such a huge advantage in the past, but with all the stuff that goes on rifles nowadays, I think it's probably started to matter more. It's hard to design a durable assault rifle that's much lighter then the AR-15 because of the lack of a gas piston. Take a look at the HK 416 -it's actually considerably heavier, and that's only partly due to having a heavy duty barrel. (As for the M16A2's weight -first of all I suspect the figure given was for a loaded example, second of all it's got a fairly long barrel that's been beefed up for durability reasons.)

I'm also not entirely convinced that the AR-15s reliability is actually that bad. Compared to a AK-47 perhaps it doesn't do so well, but compared to some of the other competition? Some of the stuff I've read on the G36 make is sound downright flimsy in construction.

As someone who has never used an assault rifle perhaps I shouldn't say this, but with the research I've done, I've got the impression the M-4s is actually a pretty good weapon aside from it's ammunition. M855's performance out of a short barrel is kind of sucky. A different 5.56mm round or a larger intermediate calibre round could significantly increase it's effectiveness in many situations. Aside from that, it actually seems to me that it's a very good design.

That being said, I suspect a modernised AK could be a quite effective assault rifles too, so...

Piero

Male

Forum Posts : 2617

Fan of : Full Metal Panic, Macross Frontier, Mai-HiME

Original Characters : Diana and Piero

Registration date : 2008-01-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Nachtsider on Fri 20 Mar 2009 - 18:54

Hasn't the AK already been modernized? AK-103 or summat?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------





There may be no peace for the wicked, but the righteous can damn well get a piece whenever they feel like it.
avatar
Nachtsider
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD

Male

Forum Posts : 5718

Location : Inside your closet. In your head.

Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated

Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus

Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.

Registration date : 2007-09-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Piero on Fri 20 Mar 2009 - 19:06

There are (AK-74M and the Century Series), but I was thinking of something more extensive. Like a receiver sightrail and a lightweight quad rail handguard. An adjustable length buttstock with improved ergonomics could be handy too.

Piero

Male

Forum Posts : 2617

Fan of : Full Metal Panic, Macross Frontier, Mai-HiME

Original Characters : Diana and Piero

Registration date : 2008-01-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by LoC978 on Fri 20 Mar 2009 - 20:27

I used the AK-103 as an example because it fires the same slow-moving man-stopper as the AK-47. 7.62Soviet is kinda the .45ACP of rifle rounds (hence its usefulness in close quarters combat).

as for rail systems... she's no picatinny, but optics are easy enough:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Moderatio est figmentum.
avatar
LoC978
Beach Bum Revolutionary

Male

Forum Posts : 2628

Location : Northwestern USA. Usually Portland.

Fan of : At home- Claes. Abroad- Rico.

Registration date : 2007-09-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by kamajii on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 9:51

@LoC978 wrote:you can't just swap a single part and have a new weapon the way you can
on the AR platform (seriously, it takes no tools and about 10 seconds
to swap upper receivers, potentially going from a 5.56 battle rifle to
a .50 Beowulf, or to a belt-fed shrike LMG. You'll never hear of those things used, but if the ex spec-ops guys I used to know are to be believed...)
I hear... But... It's interesting for special operation forces on eneny territory. When you have restricted access for ammunition and weaponary. But for regulary troops more simply go to weapon storage and take suitabe weapon. I can't imagine situation when soldier reassemblies shortgun from his M16 on combat field.

@LoC978 wrote: but y'know what's better than any damned assault rifle for urban combat? A modern submachine gun (the FN P90 and H&K MP7 spring instantly to mind).
Assault rifle used not only in the streets, AFAIK. I don't thing that's P90 or MP7 would acceptable in jungles, deserts, montains, steppes.

kamajii

Male

Forum Posts : 85

Location : Ukraine, Kharkov

Fan of : Petra

Original Characters : none

Registration date : 2008-04-26

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by kamajii on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 10:11

@Piero wrote:There are (AK-74M and the Century Series), but I was thinking of something more extensive. Like a receiver sightrail and a lightweight quad rail handguard. An adjustable length buttstock with improved ergonomics could be handy too.
It would be so strange, that russian army used "west" picatiny rail. Smile
By the way, AK can be equipped with optical sight, collimator sight, night vision sight, laser designator, silencer (fire decreaser), grenade launcher. What else needed?

kamajii

Male

Forum Posts : 85

Location : Ukraine, Kharkov

Fan of : Petra

Original Characters : none

Registration date : 2008-04-26

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by LoC978 on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 15:50

@kamajii wrote:
@LoC978 wrote:you can't just swap a single part and have a new weapon the way you can
on the AR platform (seriously, it takes no tools and about 10 seconds
to swap upper receivers, potentially going from a 5.56 battle rifle to
a .50 Beowulf, or to a belt-fed shrike LMG. You'll never hear of those things used, but if the ex spec-ops guys I used to know are to be believed...)
I hear... But... It's interesting for special operation forces on eneny territory. When you have restricted access for ammunition and weaponary. But for regulary troops more simply go to weapon storage and take suitabe weapon. I can't imagine situation when soldier reassemblies shortgun from his M16 on combat field.
that's just the thing about american forces... we seem to be trying to transition away from having any 'regular' troops... even as a helicopter mechanic, I spent an inordinate amount of time learning tactics and how to tell friend from foe. There are no 'lines' out there any more. The modern battlefield is a quagmire of civilians and enemies disguised as civilians.

@kamajii wrote:
@LoC978 wrote: but y'know what's better than any damned assault rifle for urban combat? A modern submachine gun (the FN P90 and H&K MP7 spring instantly to mind).
Assault rifle used not only in the streets, AFAIK. I don't thing that's P90 or MP7 would acceptable in jungles, deserts, montains, steppes.
I beg to differ. The submachine gun can easily replace and outperform the light assault rifle (though not the Designated Marksman's Weapon, Shotgun, or Light Machine Gun... as for the underwater assault rifle, I admit it's a cool idea, but it's unnecessary. That's why the Navy has sonar and depth charges Wink ).

P90:
Cartridge- 5.7x28mm
Action- Straight blowback, closed bolt
Rate of fire- 900 rounds/min
Muzzle velocity- 715 m/s (2,346 ft/s) (SS190)
850 m/s (2,788.7 ft/s) (SS90)
Effective range- Sights fixed for 150 m
Maximum range- 200 m
Feed system- 50-round detachable box magazine
Sights- Tritium-illuminated reflex sight, back-up iron sights
Weight- 2.54 kg (5.60 lb) empty, 3.0 kg (6.6 lb) loaded[1]
Length- 500 mm (19.7 in)

MP7:
Cartridge- 4.6x30mm
Action- Gas-operated, rotating bolt
Rate of fire- 950 + 200 rounds/min
Muzzle velocity- Approx. 710 m/s (2,329 ft/s)
Effective range- 200 m
Feed system- 20 or 40-round box magazine
Weight- 1.9 kg (4.19 lb)
Length- 590 mm (23.2 in) stock extended / 380 mm (15.0 in) stock collapsed

-they're lighter, smaller, easier to place rounds reflexively, and reportedly as reliable as most any modern assault rifle (by modern I mean the H&K 416, FN SCAR... the Colt AR and Kalashnikov have run their course, I say). They take the 'round placement first' philosophy to its logical conclusion, and I say why compromise? I'll take either over the 5.56x45 or 5.45x39... and if I need stopping power, those two (currently common) calibers don't offer it anyway. But the .45ACP and 7.62NATO do.
@kamajii wrote:
@Piero wrote:There are (AK-74M and the Century Series), but I was thinking of something more extensive. Like a receiver sightrail and a lightweight quad rail handguard. An adjustable length buttstock with improved ergonomics could be handy too.
It would be so strange, that russian army used "west" picatiny rail. Smile
By the way, AK can be equipped with optical sight, collimator sight, night vision sight, laser designator, silencer (fire decreaser), grenade launcher. What else needed?
well, it's not exactly needed, but... much like personalizing a handgun's trigger pull, grips and sights... a professional often wants more customization than someone who has only been through a few weeks of training. Hence:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Moderatio est figmentum.
avatar
LoC978
Beach Bum Revolutionary

Male

Forum Posts : 2628

Location : Northwestern USA. Usually Portland.

Fan of : At home- Claes. Abroad- Rico.

Registration date : 2007-09-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 16:42



Last edited by Kiskaloo on Tue 14 Apr 2009 - 20:31; edited 1 time in total

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What? I like donuts! - Betty Suarez
If I die before my time, go on Oprah and tell the world 'I liked kittens'. - Veronica Mars
Scissors of victory! - Yui Hirasawa
avatar
Kiskaloo
A Cat of Many Talents

Male

Forum Posts : 10901

Location : Seattle / Tokyo / Milan

Fan of : Angelica's Smile

Original Characters : Kara Michelle

Comments : The community's international man of mystery.

Registration date : 2008-09-11

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by rusty-spring on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 16:46

@Kiskaloo wrote:Barbie For Men

I've always laughed at that picture. But on the more serious side, when's the last time you saw a Barbie punch holes through a target downrange? And no, I will not discuss the infamous "Potato Gun Assisted Barbie Orbiter." just whistlin'

P.S. - It's hard to make a sabot for a 1/8 scale person.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Do you know what Jesus said in John chapter 5? Don't bring me any trouble, bitch." - Eda, Black Lagoon
"Anybody can be cool...but awesome takes practice." - Lorraine Peterson
avatar
rusty-spring
The AWESOME Baron

Male

Forum Posts : 1380

Fan of : being awesome

Original Characters : L is for Laine

Registration date : 2007-09-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Piero on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 17:59

@LoC978 wrote:I used the AK-103 as an example because it fires the same slow-moving man-stopper as the AK-47. 7.62Soviet is kinda the .45ACP of rifle rounds (hence its usefulness in close quarters combat).

Would it surprise you to learn that a prominent terminal ballistics researcher considers the Russian M1943 7.62x39mm round to be comparable to a .38 FMJ round from a handgun in terms of on target effect? The thing apparently doesn't break up or destabalise very easily, so it has a tendency to largely go straight through things. Yugoslavian M67 apparently performs somewhat better due to being less stable after impact.

However, 7.62x39mm is less likely to suffer major degradations in performance after passing through barriers then a lot of the fragmenting 5.56mm bullets are. Those rounds often perform very well if they hit directly, but have issues with barriers, especially glass. And of course, 5.56mm is highly dependent on velocity for fragmention, so it's capabilities degrade a lot with range.

Overall point though is that bullet design is extremely important when it comes to determing how effective a round will actually be when it hits a target. Thing like diameter and velocity are only part of the equation.

But then again... in the big picture, how much do these things even matter really? The AKM with it's '.38 like' terminal ballistics and the old Nazi MP-40 with it's 'wimpy' 9mm FMJ seem to have proven themselves quite effective.

Piero

Male

Forum Posts : 2617

Fan of : Full Metal Panic, Macross Frontier, Mai-HiME

Original Characters : Diana and Piero

Registration date : 2008-01-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by LoC978 on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 20:39

from seeing the aftereffects of wounds made by the 7.62Soviet and 5.56 NATO, I have to say I doubt the guy's findings...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Moderatio est figmentum.
avatar
LoC978
Beach Bum Revolutionary

Male

Forum Posts : 2628

Location : Northwestern USA. Usually Portland.

Fan of : At home- Claes. Abroad- Rico.

Registration date : 2007-09-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 20:44

Seven-six-two has this tearing and gouging effect, so I've heard. And five-five-six just makes little holes in you.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------





There may be no peace for the wicked, but the righteous can damn well get a piece whenever they feel like it.
avatar
Nachtsider
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD

Male

Forum Posts : 5718

Location : Inside your closet. In your head.

Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated

Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus

Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.

Registration date : 2007-09-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 21:02

Actually 5.56 NATO "tumbles" in human flesh, so it tends to create a rather nasty wound track.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What? I like donuts! - Betty Suarez
If I die before my time, go on Oprah and tell the world 'I liked kittens'. - Veronica Mars
Scissors of victory! - Yui Hirasawa
avatar
Kiskaloo
A Cat of Many Talents

Male

Forum Posts : 10901

Location : Seattle / Tokyo / Milan

Fan of : Angelica's Smile

Original Characters : Kara Michelle

Comments : The community's international man of mystery.

Registration date : 2008-09-11

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Piero on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 21:07

It depends a lot on whose ammunition you're using, apparently. There's more then one type of 7.62x39mm and a LOT of different types of 5.56mm (of which M855 is not considered a particularly good terminal performer).

To give some idea how complicated it can get with variations between ammunition, 7.62x51mm M80 ammunition comes in two jacket variations. The cheap steel jacketed version will tend to fragment out to about 100 meters when fired from a M-14 while the high end copper jacketed version tends not to.

But then, my opinion is probably of somewhat limited value considering it's based entirely on reading I've done when doing research for some of my fiction writing type projects...

Piero

Male

Forum Posts : 2617

Fan of : Full Metal Panic, Macross Frontier, Mai-HiME

Original Characters : Diana and Piero

Registration date : 2008-01-21

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 21:23

@Kiskaloo wrote:Actually 5.56 NATO "tumbles" in human flesh, so it tends to create a rather nasty wound track.
Doesn't it depend on the twist, Kisk? I've heard that the 1 in 12 twist was the one that caused tumbling, and that doesn't really happen anymore given the present M16s use a 1 in 7...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------





There may be no peace for the wicked, but the righteous can damn well get a piece whenever they feel like it.
avatar
Nachtsider
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD
KNIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD

Male

Forum Posts : 5718

Location : Inside your closet. In your head.

Fan of : Gunslinger Girl, Transformers: Animated

Original Characters : Liesel/Altheus, Meir/Kathryn, Aharon/Nadia, Cosette/Janus

Comments : The Living Legend. Master of Darkness. Trailblazer par excellence. Fear him.

Registration date : 2007-09-09

Back to top Go down

Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum