Difference of M16 & AK-47

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Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by LoC978 on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 15:50

@kamajii wrote:
@LoC978 wrote:you can't just swap a single part and have a new weapon the way you can
on the AR platform (seriously, it takes no tools and about 10 seconds
to swap upper receivers, potentially going from a 5.56 battle rifle to
a .50 Beowulf, or to a belt-fed shrike LMG. You'll never hear of those things used, but if the ex spec-ops guys I used to know are to be believed...)
I hear... But... It's interesting for special operation forces on eneny territory. When you have restricted access for ammunition and weaponary. But for regulary troops more simply go to weapon storage and take suitabe weapon. I can't imagine situation when soldier reassemblies shortgun from his M16 on combat field.
that's just the thing about american forces... we seem to be trying to transition away from having any 'regular' troops... even as a helicopter mechanic, I spent an inordinate amount of time learning tactics and how to tell friend from foe. There are no 'lines' out there any more. The modern battlefield is a quagmire of civilians and enemies disguised as civilians.

@kamajii wrote:
@LoC978 wrote: but y'know what's better than any damned assault rifle for urban combat? A modern submachine gun (the FN P90 and H&K MP7 spring instantly to mind).
Assault rifle used not only in the streets, AFAIK. I don't thing that's P90 or MP7 would acceptable in jungles, deserts, montains, steppes.
I beg to differ. The submachine gun can easily replace and outperform the light assault rifle (though not the Designated Marksman's Weapon, Shotgun, or Light Machine Gun... as for the underwater assault rifle, I admit it's a cool idea, but it's unnecessary. That's why the Navy has sonar and depth charges Wink ).

P90:
Cartridge- 5.7x28mm
Action- Straight blowback, closed bolt
Rate of fire- 900 rounds/min
Muzzle velocity- 715 m/s (2,346 ft/s) (SS190)
850 m/s (2,788.7 ft/s) (SS90)
Effective range- Sights fixed for 150 m
Maximum range- 200 m
Feed system- 50-round detachable box magazine
Sights- Tritium-illuminated reflex sight, back-up iron sights
Weight- 2.54 kg (5.60 lb) empty, 3.0 kg (6.6 lb) loaded[1]
Length- 500 mm (19.7 in)

MP7:
Cartridge- 4.6x30mm
Action- Gas-operated, rotating bolt
Rate of fire- 950 + 200 rounds/min
Muzzle velocity- Approx. 710 m/s (2,329 ft/s)
Effective range- 200 m
Feed system- 20 or 40-round box magazine
Weight- 1.9 kg (4.19 lb)
Length- 590 mm (23.2 in) stock extended / 380 mm (15.0 in) stock collapsed

-they're lighter, smaller, easier to place rounds reflexively, and reportedly as reliable as most any modern assault rifle (by modern I mean the H&K 416, FN SCAR... the Colt AR and Kalashnikov have run their course, I say). They take the 'round placement first' philosophy to its logical conclusion, and I say why compromise? I'll take either over the 5.56x45 or 5.45x39... and if I need stopping power, those two (currently common) calibers don't offer it anyway. But the .45ACP and 7.62NATO do.
@kamajii wrote:
@Piero wrote:There are (AK-74M and the Century Series), but I was thinking of something more extensive. Like a receiver sightrail and a lightweight quad rail handguard. An adjustable length buttstock with improved ergonomics could be handy too.
It would be so strange, that russian army used "west" picatiny rail. Smile
By the way, AK can be equipped with optical sight, collimator sight, night vision sight, laser designator, silencer (fire decreaser), grenade launcher. What else needed?
well, it's not exactly needed, but... much like personalizing a handgun's trigger pull, grips and sights... a professional often wants more customization than someone who has only been through a few weeks of training. Hence:

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Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 16:42



Last edited by Kiskaloo on Tue 14 Apr 2009 - 20:31; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by rusty-spring on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 16:46

@Kiskaloo wrote:Barbie For Men

I've always laughed at that picture. But on the more serious side, when's the last time you saw a Barbie punch holes through a target downrange? And no, I will not discuss the infamous "Potato Gun Assisted Barbie Orbiter." just whistlin'

P.S. - It's hard to make a sabot for a 1/8 scale person.

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Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Piero on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 17:59

@LoC978 wrote:I used the AK-103 as an example because it fires the same slow-moving man-stopper as the AK-47. 7.62Soviet is kinda the .45ACP of rifle rounds (hence its usefulness in close quarters combat).

Would it surprise you to learn that a prominent terminal ballistics researcher considers the Russian M1943 7.62x39mm round to be comparable to a .38 FMJ round from a handgun in terms of on target effect? The thing apparently doesn't break up or destabalise very easily, so it has a tendency to largely go straight through things. Yugoslavian M67 apparently performs somewhat better due to being less stable after impact.

However, 7.62x39mm is less likely to suffer major degradations in performance after passing through barriers then a lot of the fragmenting 5.56mm bullets are. Those rounds often perform very well if they hit directly, but have issues with barriers, especially glass. And of course, 5.56mm is highly dependent on velocity for fragmention, so it's capabilities degrade a lot with range.

Overall point though is that bullet design is extremely important when it comes to determing how effective a round will actually be when it hits a target. Thing like diameter and velocity are only part of the equation.

But then again... in the big picture, how much do these things even matter really? The AKM with it's '.38 like' terminal ballistics and the old Nazi MP-40 with it's 'wimpy' 9mm FMJ seem to have proven themselves quite effective.

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Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by LoC978 on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 20:39

from seeing the aftereffects of wounds made by the 7.62Soviet and 5.56 NATO, I have to say I doubt the guy's findings...

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Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 20:44

Seven-six-two has this tearing and gouging effect, so I've heard. And five-five-six just makes little holes in you.

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Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 21:02

Actually 5.56 NATO "tumbles" in human flesh, so it tends to create a rather nasty wound track.

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Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Piero on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 21:07

It depends a lot on whose ammunition you're using, apparently. There's more then one type of 7.62x39mm and a LOT of different types of 5.56mm (of which M855 is not considered a particularly good terminal performer).

To give some idea how complicated it can get with variations between ammunition, 7.62x51mm M80 ammunition comes in two jacket variations. The cheap steel jacketed version will tend to fragment out to about 100 meters when fired from a M-14 while the high end copper jacketed version tends not to.

But then, my opinion is probably of somewhat limited value considering it's based entirely on reading I've done when doing research for some of my fiction writing type projects...

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Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 21:23

@Kiskaloo wrote:Actually 5.56 NATO "tumbles" in human flesh, so it tends to create a rather nasty wound track.
Doesn't it depend on the twist, Kisk? I've heard that the 1 in 12 twist was the one that caused tumbling, and that doesn't really happen anymore given the present M16s use a 1 in 7...

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Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 21:26

Could be. I didn't major in ballistics, to be honest. Smile

In the end, the folks I fired at went down and stayed down when hit and that was enough for me.

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Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Nachtsider on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 21:28

Wow, Kisk, I didn't know you went front-line. I thought being an airman, you would've been up in the clouds, dealing out impersonal damage. Guh?

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Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Kiskaloo on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 21:41

@Nachtsider wrote:Wow, Kisk, I didn't know you went front-line. I thought being an airman, you would've been up in the clouds, dealing out impersonal damage. Guh?

There were times I had to be directly in harm's way. During them, I did miss that nice thick CAP that usually covered my sorry ass.

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Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Guest on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 21:47

if i had to guess, the main and most interesting difference would remain the RECOIL and the impact it has on your targeting ...

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Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by rusty-spring on Sat 21 Mar 2009 - 23:30

All this ballistics talk reminds me of a line Revy says in Black Lagoon.

If you can hit your target, pretty much any gun will do the trick.
But I suppose that's too boring. So debate away! Razz

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Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by LoC978 on Sun 22 Mar 2009 - 0:52

@Kiskaloo wrote:Could be. I didn't major in ballistics, to be honest. Smile
nor did I

@Kiskaloo wrote:In the end, the folks I fired at went down and stayed down when hit and that was enough for me.
Unfortunately, I've heard many a secondhand account where that wasn't the case... most grunts I've known who scored direct, unsupported hits wound up scoring two or three extras when the target didn't hit the floor ('course, a more common account is when a target is hit by a hail of bullets from a 249, which is just as good as using a larger caliber). The M-16/M4 isn't disparagingly nicknamed 'pea shooter' among the ranks without good reason.
Could be Nacht's hypothesis concerning barrel rifling is the reason. In all my training, I've never been told the 5.56 tumbles. In fact, I've been told it's a myth... and that oddly placed exit wounds from our weapons tend to come from deflection off of bone (whereas 7.62Soviets do tend to tumble when fired out of an old AK-47, hence their high lethality... and uselessness beyond 100m).

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Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Awinnell on Sun 22 Mar 2009 - 8:06

doesn't barrel length come into this as well ? i seem to remember that the M4 has trouble with its shorter carbine barrel reducing the velocity of the round, so it acts more like a civilian .22 round rather than a military 5.56

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Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Piero on Sun 22 Mar 2009 - 12:50

I still wonder if the 7.62x39mm thing may have something to do with the differences between different types of 7.62x39mm ammunition -like with 5.56mm, the differences between different types is significant.

There are basically three ways a non expanding rifle bullet can perform. It can go more or less straight through the target, it can yaw, or it can yaw and break apart because of the forces acting on the bullet. From a terminal ballistics standpoint the first result is generally considered the least desirable and the last the most. With a small round like 5.56mm, achieving the last result is considered critically important.

M855 is generally not considered a particularly good round from a terminal ballistics perspective (M193 is actually generally seen as a better round, though how much so varies), though there are other rounds out there which don't produce fragmentation at all (Czech ammo is apparently like this). M855 has three major flaws:

1) The threshold velocity for reliable fragmentation is quite high (a trait shared with a lot of other 5.56mm FMJ loads).
2) It has a tendency to need to penetrate quite deeply before it will yaw enough to fragment.
3) It's a complex bullet and thus highly sensitive to manufacturing tolerances, thus meaning terminal ballistics can vary quite widely between different examples of the ammunition.

So basically, M855 can perform effectively, but it's ability to reliably deliver good terminal ballistics is not held in very high regard. A heavy OTM type round like MK 262 which has a lower fragmentation threshold and yaws and fragments more quickly would make for a much more reliable performer. Only problem is that it's not a very good round for shooting through barriers. But then 5.56mm generally isn't seen as a good round for shooting through barriers in general, so...

An assault rifle cartridge in the 6.5-6.8mm range is generally seen as having the ability to overcome the limitations of 5.56mm and produce very good terminal ballistics.

Also though... there are guys who were shot multiple times by rifle rounds in World War II and survived. There's a school of thought out there that even big rounds can't reliably achieve rapid incapacitation of targets and that in CQB, anything worth shooting is worth shooting multiple times. It's something I've tended to follow when I write action scenes. (And I suppose that this is where I should stress once again that this is based pretty much entirely on reading I've done, not actual experience...)

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Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by Kiskaloo on Sun 22 Mar 2009 - 13:31

I have Kara using Mk 262 Open Tip Match rounds in her XM8 vs. the standard M855.

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Re: Difference of M16 & AK-47

Post by LoC978 on Sun 22 Mar 2009 - 15:38

Piero, your post just made me remember why we use rounds like the M855:
Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III
fragmenting bullets may not be hollow-points, but... I can see where some may argue that they break said law in spirit.
...stupid rules...

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